All right. How did you mean it to sound, exactly?
I just wrote what I was feeling.
Does the Spirit "speak" in the direct-to-mind way that you assume he does, giving clear statements to you to do this or that (or not to do this or that)? If I allow God's word to dictate to me what I should expect the communication of the Spirit to be like, I don't arrive at a private, direct-to-mind "voice" in my head saying things to me. Though there are many instances of God's communication described in the Bible, not one of them describes an "inner voice." . but no descriptions anywhere of God whispering things in someone's mind. So, where does this "the Spirit will speak to you directly in your mind" stuff come from? Not from the Bible, as far as I can see.
I never said He whispers things into people's minds. I remember saying His Spirit communicates directly with our spirits (i.e., Spirit to spirit communications as exemplified in Romans 8:16) and what He says finds its way from our spirits into our understanding. That's the path I think it takes, but I could be wrong.
If God does not literally communicate with us from inside our hearts, then what do these Scriptures mean?
- the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me (Jn 15:26)
- whatever He hears He will speak (Jn 16:13)
- He will tell you things to come (Jn 16:13)
- He will take of Mine and declare it to you. (Jn 16:15)
- The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
- But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. (1 Co 2:10)
- These things we also speak, ... in words which ... the Holy Spirit teaches (1 Co 2:13)
He testifies, speaks, tells, declares, bears witness, reveals, and teaches. And He does these things from inside our hearts, where He resides.
Into what does the Spirit guide me? Into God's Truth. Where is that Truth, spiritually-speaking, found? In the Bible. Prophecies of the future, spiritual principles and commands, spiritual examples and wisdom are all given to us by God in His word. As we're in it, the Spirit illuminates our understanding of it, helping us "connect the dots" of God's word, and "bringing to remembrance" the words/teachings of Christ (which is actually all of divinely-inspired Scripture) at appropriate moments. The passage from John 16that I cited says nothing more than this, indicating though it does that the Spirit will teach believers about God's will and truth.
I agree that God challenges or confirms that our understanding of Scripture. However, though you don't say it directly, you are implying that God limits His communications to us to only the contents of the Bible. So, for instance, if I wanted to go to a certain place to preach, God wouldn't tell me directly that He didn't want me to do it, though it's obvious He did so with Paul and his crew.
6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them. (Ac 16:6–7)
So, then, I don't say less than Scripture and argue that the Spirit does nothing within our minds directly, but I don't say more than Scripture does, either, arguing that the Spirit commonly holds a conversation with believers in their heads.
Well, Scripture says He testifies to us, speaks to us, tells things to us, declares things to us, bears witness to us, reveals things to us, and teaches us. But there are no Scriptures that tell us that He does not do these things by way of a conversation. So saying He doesn't hold a conversation with us goes beyond what Scripture says.
Does God's Truth given to us in His word not come directly from Him? Does His truth originate from some other source?
No, it comes indirectly from Him to us. He directly interacted with the writers. They wrote it down. Other people copied it. Other people translated it. And still others opine on it. Now, when we read the Bible, or read posts about the Bible, or hear a sermon from the Bible, He interacts with us directly to perfect our understanding of the truths He inspired to be written. Without us listening to and trusting His guidance, we could get the whole message wrong (as many have).
Don't you? How would you have any idea about the structure and substance of the Christian faith apart from God's word? How would you know anything about the Holy Spirit except Scripture told you about him?
Yes, the Bible is a great benefit. But I don't give the Bible credit for revealing God or the things of God to me. The Bible says for instance that God gave us His Spirit so that He might teach us spiritual things from inside our hearts, things that we would otherwise not be able to know. These Scriptures do not point to themselves, but to the God who reveals Himself to us from the intimacy of our own hearts. It is a great benefit to know that the Holy Spirit is teaching us. But it is an even greater benefit to be taught by the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit dwells within me, yes, but this doesn't mean he and I have regular chats about stuff in my head. And, again, I don't see any cause for expecting such a thing in God's word. From where else ought I to take up an understanding of what it is to "hear from God" that doesn't throw wide the doors to anyone saying anything they like about what God told them?
I wouldn't listen to them. A guy told me one time that God wanted me to be a missionary. I told him, "That's strange. I wonder why He didn't tell me." But I knew God didn't want me to be a missionary because I had already discussed it with Him.
All experiences I have are necessarily subjective. How can they not be? But how do I know that what folk want to say is an experience of God actually is?
The first thing to know is that you answer to God. So do they. You trust what God reveals to you, and only trust what they say if He confirms to you it is right. This holds true for every personal interaction, including sermons, theology in songs, or posts on CF.net.
How do they distinguish between their own self-talk and the voice of the Spirit? I've never had anyone give me anything like a clear answer to this question.
I did give some solid advice earlier in this thread, which is to consider Scriptures that tell us how He interacts with us, look inside to see that He is doing so, and consider that His voice sounds the same in all His interactions with you. Over time, the question will never pop into your mind because you will recognize Him when He interacts with you.
How do they distinguish between the truth-twisting "angel of light" that is the devil and the Holy Spirit? Again, I've never heard any answer that doesn't spiral back to Scripture.
It is easy to believe the devil whispers in people's ears, but it is impossible to believe God speaks to us from His Spirit from inside our hearts where He lives?
So, it isn't that I deny a subjective experience of God (I can have no other kind of experience, right?) but how to demonstrate objectively that my experience is actually of God. Do you see the distinction I'm making here?
Yes I do. Hopefully the answer I gave above is helpful.
what I'm challenging is the idea that such revelation is established on subjective grounds and that there is good biblical grounds for expecting that the things God's reveals to His children will happen via a voice whispering in their minds.
Well, I think there is plenty of evidence that He testifies, speaks, tells, declares, bears witness, reveals, and teaches. I think it is a stretch to say trusting Him when He does so is subjective.
What does "discern them in our spirits" mean? Can you give me a biblical accounting of what this is? So, then, where is such explanation made in God's word?
I was just trying to explain "spiritually discerned". We discern spiritual things using spiritual faculties that don't exist outside the indwelling of the Holiest of all Spirits.
There is the word of God illuminated by the Spirit of God to minds and hearts under his control.
1 Cor 2:10-16
Gal 5:16, 25
Rom 8:14
I'm not going to go through all those verses, but the 1 Cor, Gal, and Rom ones are not talking about what the Bible teaches us, but about the Spirit.
Just one final note: I see nowhere in Scripture any teaching that separates (not merely distinguishes) one's spirit from one's mind and that indicates that understanding can happen apart from one's mind, solely in the spirit (which is an entirely nonsensical idea, to me).
I'm not going to argue about this. I don't really understand what you're saying. Are you saying our spirits are the same thing as our minds, that our spirits do not exist, or something else? I think our spirits exist and they are different than our minds. God knows the boundaries between our souls, spirits, minds, and hearts, but I don't.
I hope this post has served to clarify my views for you.
It does. Thanks.
