Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

[Christ_empowered]

Frightening because some of them are or will become wolves in sheep’s clothing…

 

[follower]

I’ve been questioning that myself lately…

This is difficult since most all resources available anywhere are empty of life.
Finding fellowship in Christ Jesus is wonderful, delightful, life giving, miraculous, a gift from the Creator Himself.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Agreed

I’m kind of disenchanted with the whole big ideas from big very important men approach to understanding scripture. At the same time I’ve been burned by seemingly wholesome church people, so there’s that..

 

[follower]

Frightening because some of them are or will become wolves in sheep’s clothing…

Jesus told the disciples who stayed with Him, the messengers of God chosen by God,
that the many troubles He disclosed were coming
were not to frighten them,
but so then when they happened (including martyrdom of all who were seeking truth)
they would not lose the JOY THEY ALREADY HAD (and MORE JOY COMING) in Jesus....
The falseness of the world would not destroy their peace, their joy or their righteousness that was their abiding reality while abiding in Christ Jesus.
Many later over the centuries were devastated, and even gave up their faith, to save their lives, and the ones who were guilty of not teaching them the truth previously wept bitterly for not having warned them of the suffering they would have to endure for their faith in Jesus.

 

[follower]

Agreed

I’m kind of disenchanted with the whole big ideas from big very important men approach to understanding scripture. At the same time I’ve been burned by seemingly wholesome church people, so there’s that..

More than once, and before my trust was fully in Jesus, I cried to God because there was no one faithful I could trust nor turn to for TRUTH.
This is necessary in everyone's life if they turn to Jesus.
They must give up everything, as Jesus says, to be His.

 

[Tenchi]

Because it's like code that only those with ears to hear can perceive; those guided by the Spirit of God.

The Gospel accounts don't say this. Instead, Christ's own disciples, those following him at more of a distance, the unbelieving but curious rabble and those staunchly opposed to him were all to varying degrees in the dark about him; and certainly none of them, save the singular John the Baptist, understood his atoning Messianic purpose. I don't, then, see this "code for ears Spirit-enabled to hear" demonstrated among the people orbiting Christ while he was on earth and I can't think of any verse or passage in the Gospels that explicitly indicated such a thing was in play. It appears to me you're just assuming this "code" thing exists.

The same thing was happening with Gideon's 300.

??? Nothing in the account concerning Gideon and the defeat of the Midianites indicates the Holy Spirit was moving certain men to drink water one way and moving others to drink in another way. Nothing in the account says anything about the Spirit acting upon Gideon's three hundred at all. Again, you appear to be just assuming it.

Those led by the Spirit have ears to hear what is commanded by the Spirit of God whereas others don't; they pick up on His leading, and to him who has more will be given, but to him who has not, even that which he has will be taken from him.

Well, I think those led by the Spirit are those he's brought into daily submission to his will and way (Galatians 5:16-18; Romans 8:9-14; Romans 12:1; Romans 6:13-22; James 4:6-10, etc.) and are moved by him as a result, in tandem with the commands, principles, truth and wisdom of Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Psalms 119:105, 130, Matthew 4:4), in the way they should go. For those who consciously, explicitly and persistently give the Spirit control over their desires, thinking and conduct, his leading is natural, often unnoticeable, fundamentally guided by God's word, divinely "opened doors" (and closed ones, too) and supernatural provision, rather than a divine whisper in the mind, or sudden "Spirit-impulse."

However God leads His children, the record of His word does not indicate that it was His practice to do so via a whispering, in-the-mind voice. Always in God's word, when He intended to communicate something to someone, He did so overtly and unmistakably, even when they weren't expecting His communication and were directly at odds with Him, as I've already explained.

Moreover, the Lord's wisdom is like pearls granted to those who abide close to Him, and He adorns them with it. Such honor does NOT go to those who are nonchalant and lukewarm in their affections for Him.

Oh? And Judas? He was a member of the Twelve and privy, then, to all the "pearls" Christ doled out to his inner circle of disciples. How do the foolish and wicked come to be repentant, redeemed children of God except they are recipients of His "pearls of wisdom"? Is the Gospel not a precious gift from God that is extended to all who are lost, bound in sin and in deep rebellion to Him? This is what the Bible says is the case. But the Gospel is full of divine wisdom, as well as love, mercy and grace. Being in a "good place" with God is not, then, vital to hearing from Him, to being given His wisdom. And thank God this is so; for if it were not, none of us would be saved!

No Tenchi. I understand what you are trying to say, but if you look a little deeper you are actually contradicting yourself.

??? This is what is recorded of his disciples in Scripture:

Matthew 17:19-21
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"
20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith...

Mark 6:51-52
51 Then He got into the boat with them, and the wind stopped; and they were utterly astonished,
52 for they had not gained any insight from the incident of the loaves, but their heart was hardened.

Mark 8:17-18
17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened?
18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember?

If they had had a greater closeness with God you don't think He would have already been revealing to them a sense that something wasn't right about the things they had been taught to believe?

I think Christ's disciples were as close to him as he permitted them to be and as understanding of his teaching as he wished them to be. Eventually, after his resurrection, he fully illuminated their minds and hearts to the truth of who he was and what he'd taught them. Being God incarnate, he'd had the power all along to do so, however, but chose not to.

Luke 24:25-27
25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-48
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.

When Jesus asked, "But who do you think I am" and Peter said, "You are the Christ," He replied, "Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but My Father who is in Heaven." Now, if they were receiving revelation directly from the Father through the Holy Spirit, who is to say they could not have been doing so even earlier, especially since Jesus was mildly chastising them rather than just passing it off and excusing it when they were NOT understanding the parables?

See above.

Kind of an argument from silence, though, don't you think?

No. The Bible records two divinely-sent dreams Joseph had. But it records no others. Why, if these two were recorded, were other God-sent dreams he had not recorded? It seems entirely reasonable to me to think this is so because he had no other such dreams.

And it is an "argument from silence" to argue for Joseph having other dreams when there is no concrete ground from which to do so.

If the Bible is a condensed version of all the events that took place as you say (which it is), then why would scripture include all of the other dreams he might have had if he had them?

Why record the two he had that were recorded? Because they were special, God-sent dreams. If he'd had other such dreams, I think they'd have been recorded, too. But they weren't.

How can we assume they all didn't have others?

Um, what was that you were saying about an argument from silence?

My point was to look at how frequently they show up in the lives of those being used by the Spirit of God during NT times, and the conclusion is they featured very prominently.

Prominently, perhaps, but not at all frequently or commonly.

I still think you are trying to explain them away rather than taking things at face value.

No, I'm just being strict about what how I'm reading God's word, not making assumptions that I mix into the text.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The first post, the op, has important things to notice. But those things, if drawn out, explained, are not welcome on forums, in churches, etc..... as it removes or takes away the power from those in power who are exerting power in the group and maintaining deception throughout the forum or group or cathedral or church.

This is sometimes the case, yes. Men/ leaders who insist on maintaining control themselves will take it as a threat when others are used by God, and that's really the issue. Is the Great Shepherd in charge over a congregation or is a man? If he is a true man of God, he will ascent to the Lord and whatever He wishes to do. If he is insistent on being in charge, He will resist, and those who are submitted to the Spirit are then forced to make a choice: Do we follow God or a man? (Acts 5:29-32)

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Gospel accounts don't say this. Instead, Christ's own disciples, those following him at more of a distance, the unbelieving but curious rabble and those staunchly opposed to him were all to varying degrees in the dark about him; and certainly none of them, save the singular John the Baptist, understood his atoning Messianic purpose. I don't, then, see this "code for ears Spirit-enabled to hear" demonstrated among the people orbiting Christ while he was on earth and I can't think of any verse or passage in the Gospels that explicitly indicated such a thing was in play. It appears to me you're just assuming this "code" thing exists.


??? Nothing in the account concerning Gideon and the defeat of the Midianites indicates the Holy Spirit was moving certain men to drink water one way and moving others to drink in another way. Nothing in the account says anything about the Spirit acting upon Gideon's three hundred at all. Again, you appear to be just assuming it.

I read this far, Tenchi. We were discussing the passages already mentioned, and others which teach on the principle of people having ears to hear.

Gonna let it go.
God bless,
- H

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is sometimes the case, yes. Men/ leaders who insist on maintaining control themselves will take it as a threat when others are used by God, and that's really the issue. Is the Great Shepherd in charge over a congregation or is a man? If he is a true man of God, he will ascent to the Lord and whatever He wishes to do. If he is insistent on being in charge, He will resist, and those who are submitted to the Spirit are then forced to make a choice: Do we follow God or a man? (Acts 5:29-32)

Keep in mind that we're living in a dark, perilous time akin to 1930s Germany, the whole world is shrouded in an evil spirit, America in particular is under God's judgement, and we're under the devil's persecution. We should cling to the few good faith leaders left and pray for them despite their personal shortcomings, because God will spare this country for their sake. If the last righteous man is brought down, there will be no spiritual force to restrain evil, then the end will come like it did to Sodom and Gomorrah. Even if it's not the end of the world, it's gonna be the end of America on a regional scale.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:7-8)

 

[hawkman]

I was a pastor's son and saw God supply miraculously many times. But this didn't translate at all into greater fellowship with God. Like other recipients of God's miraculous help, I felt gratefulness and a certain confidence in God's supply for His servant, my father. However, spiritual growth was not produced.

Some have a stony heart .
Some have a hard head .
Some wander the desert for 40 years .

When I look more broadly at those who are clamoring after miraculous signs, who are eager to see some new, supernatural thing, I don't see spiritual depth. Instead, what I see are sensual believers who don't know how to "walk by faith rather than sight."

Never once have I been "clamoring" after a sign or a "supernatural thing " . I have prayed and God has sent the signs and the healing , while I was praying for the healing I was not praying for the signs .

For these reasons, I don't hold the "sign gifts" as on par spiritually with those I listed that I think are much more conducive to spiritual living and growth.

I believe you .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jumping in here…

As a sort of side topic, do you think there should be some way to discontinue ministries and possibly even churches ️ if the spirit stops moving in them?

Some Pentecostal ministries were amazing for a season. No longer the case. I imagine this happens in other churches too just using Pentecostal ministries as an example. So…


My thinking is that the churches should not support some struggling ministries because they don’t have the spirits guidance and power. By the same logic…

Some churches should probably simply not exist if their time has passed.

Or not so much?

You know, there're many young adults who claim they are "spiritual but not religious", what they mean is that they still believe in God and Jesus as the only way to God, but their local church ministries have failed them. This is kind of a paradox. We all desire a deep, passionate relationship with God through Jesus, but this relationship is not attainable if we don't have a deep, passionate relationship with any fellow human beings.

 

[GodsGrace]

You know, there're many young adults who claim they are "spiritual but not religious", what they mean is that they still believe in God and Jesus as the only way to God, but their local church ministries have failed them. This is kind of a paradox. We all desire a deep, passionate relationship with God through Jesus, but this relationship is not attainable if we don't have a deep, passionate relationship with any fellow human beings.

Hmmm.
Intetesting.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

However God leads His children, the record of His word does not indicate that it was His practice to do so via a whispering, in-the-mind voice. Always in God's word, when He intended to communicate something to someone, He did so overtly and unmistakably, even when they weren't expecting His communication and were directly at odds with Him, as I've already explained.

I'm not sure what you mean by "via a whispering, in-the-mind voice". Do you mean to say you do not believe God leads, guides, directs, teaches, corrects, and comforts us from inside our hearts where He lives? Do you not believe in Spirit-to-spirit communications?

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:14–16).​

 

[Tenchi]

I read this far, Tenchi. We were discussing the passages already mentioned, and others which teach on the principle of people having ears to hear.

Gonna let it go.
God bless,
- H

All right. I appreciate the equilibrium you've maintained in your discussions with me. I don't apply softening flourishes to my remarks, regularly patting folks on the back in my exchanges with them, attending carefully to whatever sensitivities they make evident. I just address the ideas and reasoning put forward, calling it as I see it, trying my best to be as careful in my handling of God's word as I can be. This can make it seem I'm...hard, disinterested in the human being on the other end of the digital connection made through these threads, wanting simply to be disagreeable and contentious at every opportunity. But this isn't at all what is actually the case.

In my real life, the life I lead beyond the forums on CF.net I am a teacher/discipler within the Church, contending against all manner of destructive false doctrines, worldly philosophies, and just plain poor thinking that have concretely damaged those I teach and disciple. I interact often with believers laboring painfully under these things and witness the harm that has accrued to them as a result. I, myself, as a younger man, suffered similar pain, no one coming alongside me to disciple me into a deeper walk with my Maker. How often I wished for some spiritual guidance, some senior man in the faith to teach me how to know and enjoy God everyday in a deep, joyful and life-changing way! Eventually, God confronted my pining for a spiritual discipler and by various means helped me to become the man I was looking for and to be for others what I had wanted someone to be for me.

It's out of all of this that I write on CF.net. I'm not looking for fights, for arguments, but to protect fellow believers from spiritual misunderstanding, and poor thinking, and biblical sleight-of-hand, that I've had to correct within myself and have had long experience in untangling in the minds and lives of fellow believers. At bottom, I want my brothers and sisters in the Lord to enjoy God as abundantly as possible. But there is nothing so hindering to this enjoyment of God as the things I've just described which, to my dismay, are increasingly common and profound among born-again believers. And so, among other spiritual endeavors that resist this trend, I write on CF.net.

I'm not perfect, of course, in my heart, mind and life. I've not arrived at a perfect understanding of God's truth, either. But I'm not a spiritual child, confused, unstable and uncertain about God and His Truth. If I decide to speak to a topic concerning God's Truth, it's because I've done due diligence in studying and living in it (often for decades) and want to benefit others from this effort and experience. But there is nothing these days in the postmodern uncertainty fouling North American society that is so offensive as a settled confidence in what one knows. And so, very often, the directness and certainty with which I write in the threads on CF.net is held to be mere arrogance expressing itself rather than the assurance of God's Truth born of long study and personal experience of it. Ah, well. I've developed a pretty thick skin after nearly two decades posting in Christian forums online.

Anyway, disagreement does actually help to "sharpen my iron," for which I'm always grateful. This has been the case in this thread with you and others. So, thank you. I am not bothered by pushback but look forward to it - especially when, as in interactions with you, the exchanges are thoughtful and even-keeled, speaking to ideas and lines of argument and not my suspected evil attitudes or motives.

About those who have "ears to hear":

It's been my observation that this condition has been made into a sort of illegitimate test by some who consider themselves "spiritually elite." (I'm not thinking here of you or anyone on this thread.) They claim a certain level of sensitivity to the Spirit, an ability to "hear" him, to recognize his leading, that is above the ordinary and distinguishes them from the spiritually inferior "deaf" believer. If those "deaf" believers, those dull to the Spirit's leading, will come under their spiritual aegis, maybe buy some of their books and attend some of their conferences (at hundreds of dollars a pop), and make themselves tithing members of their churches, then they, too, can someday learn to "hear" the Spirit in the way these "Spirit-sensitive" elites do.

When I look at the NT, in particular, I see in it that all born-again believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and are born-again only because they are so indwelt (1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-14). To all born-again people, in the Person of the Spirit, the "mind of Christ" has been given, Scripture says; the Spirit who leads into all truth is as close as thought to them, having made of them his "temple" (1 Corinthians 2:10-16; John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20). What remains, then, to be done in order that these Spirit-indwelt folk might be properly - that is, clearly - guided by him? Do they have to "train" themselves to hear him? Do they have to be "close" to God? How can they be any closer to the God who lives within them?

What I see in the NT is that those who would be led of the Spirit must first be submitted to him (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:6). The Spirit will not force his "temple" to submit to his rule; the Spirit will not impose his will and way, his leading, upon those with whom he intends to foster a love-relationship. And so, he waits for the born-again believer to yield themselves as a living sacrifice to him, to their God, and to continue to do so throughout every day. This is "walking in the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25).

Bible Study - Walking By the Spirit: Basic Christian Living.

Galatians 5:16-18 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want...

christianforums.net

As the born-again person is "walking in the Spirit," by submission to him agreeing to his constant control, he transforms, sanctifies and matures them spiritually, and brings them into joyful fellowship with their Maker. In doing all these things, the Spirit, "communicates" with the born-again person, convicting them of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3), teaching them all truth (John 14:26; John 16:13), strengthening them in times of temptation and trial (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13, etc.), giving them comfort in seasons of trouble and grief (2 Corinthians 1:3-4), and changing them into Christ's likeness (Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:29).

When I consider spiritual leaders of today, then, I listen for their knowledge and experience of these things, of "life in the Spirit" that is characterized by what I've described above from God's word - conviction, illumination, strengthening, etc. - not by secret, inner voices, or dreams/visions, or overt, external supernatural occurrences.

After more than a decade serving as a teacher and Elder/Pastor in it, I recently left a church where the spiritual leaders demonstrated, not only a profound absence of a knowledge and experience of "life in the Spirit," but an unwillingness to rectify this condition. For nearly the entire time I was at the church, I was an Elder/Pastor there and urged my fellow Elders to a properly biblical walk with God, showing them, over and over from Scripture, what it was to "walk in the Spirit" and how to do so. Though they acknowledged what I showed them in God's word about life in the Spirit, and admitted to neglecting such life, they would not change. Repeatedly, over several years, I pressed them to do so, praying daily God would move them beyond mere "living in the Spirit" to "walking in the Spirit" but they had hardened into a certain kind of spiritual living and would not be moved from it. And so, finally, I had to leave the church, governed, as it was, by men who were in willful, persistent rebellion toward God (James 4:17). Our departure from the church was a very...difficult thing.

Here, then, in my own life is a case where men in spiritual leadership in my church were in direct opposition to the Holy Spirit. My choice, directed by God's word, was to patiently exhort my brothers in the Lord to better, more biblical living, but, when they would not, to honor God by having nothing more to do with them. Perhaps, you see, then, why the title of this thread was of interest to me.

 

[jasonc]

Tenchi's point is that with charismatic churches often members assume a person hearing from God and having gifts means they are so close to God when often it's not they are matured.

Even in that group the elders who are will say trails and the no from God the losses and diseases not cured will and do more for your faith then the healings .

I say this because I have attended a charismatic church for years .the pastor and elders testified that .seek the giver not the gifts from God .Holiness and Godly living .

Yet it's in that culture that if your aren't having some rhema from God ,weekly slain experience at worship something must be wrong .

I'm not saying that the opposite of the cessationost way is fully right just that the charismatic types often focus on feelings versus the Word .


I do think that there is going to be joy ,shouts in heaven .but well I will say white charismatic churches are very quiet versus black ones even the cessationists are not quiet .orderly but they do dance and sing .observation from a decade of worship in poor black churches . Gifford ,wabasso ,oslo ,and north fort Pierce .

I prefer the hymns of old now and the simplicity of them .

My church has used that song ,and others .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Anyway, disagreement does actually help to "sharpen my iron," for which I'm always grateful. This has been the case in this thread with you and others. So, thank you. I am not bothered by pushback but look forward to it - especially when, as in interactions with you, the exchanges are thoughtful and even-keeled, speaking to ideas and lines of argument and not my suspected evil attitudes or motives.

Forthright post.

For my own part, I came here from a forum that was much more aggressive (and ugly), and I appreciate this place precisely because of replies like this. When I was there, there was no attempt to reconcile at any time, just a continually spiteful attitude which made the whole atmosphere of that forum extremely toxic. Several have transplanted here since then for a time, and even the best of them come with that same spirit, which means things likely haven't changed. They wear it as a badge of honor that they... for lack of a better expression "won't take any crap off of anybody."

I have over 10,000 posts there, most of it involved in debate, but they may likely never see me again unless the Lord specifically directs me that way, because I'm a better person now. It's not just about the truth we teach but the way we live it out.

Not involved in debate here like I was there, as I sometimes wonder about the value of it, so I simply shut down conversations if it looks like things may be turning contentious. But respectful intelligent exchange on theological topics has NEVER been something I had a problem with and never would so long as I have the time, so thanks for the responses yourself. I was actually just creating this thread for a friend, but it's been decent so far.

God bless, and as the Lord permits we'll have others in the future.
- H

 

[Tenchi]

I'm not sure what you mean by "via a whispering, in-the-mind voice". Do you mean to say you do not believe God leads, guides, directs, teaches, corrects, and comforts us from inside our hearts where He lives? Do you not believe in Spirit-to-spirit communications?

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:14–16).

This "bearing witness" is not an amorphous inner sense or impression, but is the result of the Spirit's life and work in me. I know I'm God's child, a "temple" of the Holy Spirit, not because I feel strongly that I am, but because I see the concrete evidence of the Spirit within in His conviction, illumination, strengthening, comforting and transformation of me (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; John 14:6; John 14:26; John 16:8-13; Ephesians 3:16; Philippians 2:13; Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, etc.). I know the Spirit's made of me his "temple" because I desire (love) God in increasing measure, I have a self-sacrificing love of the brethren, a hunger for God's word, and a desire for a holy life (Romans 5:5; 1 John 3:14; Jeremiah 15:16; Ephesians 5:1-13). As I observe these things within myself, the Spirit "bears witness with my spirit," he gives me concrete cause for legitimate confidence that I am God's child. No mere "inner feeling of confidence" existing independently of these things can do this.

Paul wrote that believers could "examine (test) themselves whether they be in the faith." They could do the same with him, too:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

In context, Paul was writing about coming to the Corinthian believers who were "seeking proof of the Christ who speaks in me" with observable spiritual "power."

2 Corinthians 13:3-4
3 since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.

Like Christ, Paul was physically "weak," but not in spiritual power, which he warned here he would direct toward the Corinthian believers when he visited them (see verse 10). He had already been among them, preaching and teaching in the power of the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

When, then, Paul spoke to the Corinthian believers about "testing yourselves whether you be in the faith" it was in the context of having demonstrated to them the power of the Spirit overtly and concretely and warning them that he would come to them in such power again, either in discipline or encouragement. Did they have the same manifestation of the Spirit's life and work, his power, in themselves? It was this overt, concrete manifestation of his power by which they could "test themselves" (and Paul), not merely a strong, inner impression of their spirit.

Concerning the "in-the-mind voice of the Spirit," I would urge you to search God's word for a single instance where such a thing is explicitly stated as the means of God's communication to people. This "inner voice" thing is assumed, but, though many descriptions of how God has communicated are given in Scripture - burning bushes, angels, dreams/visions, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an audible voice speaking from the mouth of cave, or from the air over a downed Saul of Tarsus - not once does Scripture plainly state that God communicated via a whispering "inner voice."

 

[Tenchi]

Some have a stony heart .
Some have a hard head .
Some wander the desert for 40 years .

Yes. But they can do so certain they aren't wandering but are in the Promised Land spiritually. The Israelites who died in the wilderness experienced God's protection and provision; they were still in the wilderness, though. These things, then, are not certain proof one is not in "wandering in the desert," spiritually.

Never once have I been "clamoring" after a sign or a "supernatural thing " . I have prayed and God has sent the signs and the healing , while I was praying for the healing I was not praying for the signs .

Just to be clear: I never said you were "clamoring for a sign," hawkman. I had in mind people like Benny Hinn, or Todd White, or Kenneth Hagin, or Kenneth Copeland, etc., not you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I say this because I have attended a charismatic church for years .the pastor and elders testified that .seek the giver not the gifts from God .Holiness and Godly living .

Yeah. Not long after I got saved, I attended an AoG church in the town where I was going to college. I had a powerful baptism in the Holy Spirit experience through a college ministry associated with that church, so I assumed that was the place for me. But I eventually realized they were the same way. There was not near enough focus on conduct as on other things, so I eventually switched to a Baptist church for the remainder of my time in that city because of it.

I do value good theology, quite highly, but not if it comes at the expense of right conduct. That's too high a price for me. I can maintain my own theology and attend a church I somewhat disagree with that is nevertheless fully intent on living it out. Not that I demand perfection either, but the focus needs to be on what's real or I will search for someplace that is, one way or another.

 

[hawkman]

Concerning the "in-the-mind voice of the Spirit," I would urge you to search God's word for a single instance where such a thing is explicitly stated as the means of God's communication to people. This "inner voice" thing is assumed, but, though many descriptions of how God has communicated are given in Scripture - burning bushes, angels, dreams/visions, prophets, a disembodied hand writing on a wall, an audible voice speaking from the mouth of cave, or from the air over a downed Saul of Tarsus - not once does Scripture plainly state that God communicated via a whispering "inner voice."

I do not remembering ever giving it a thought about God saying anything to me till it happened . I was surprised the first time it happened and did not even understand it was God until I did as he instructed , then there was no doubt .
So Tenchi this will interest you , when I heard the voice for the first time where was I at in my walk with God ? I guess you could say cruise control , not seeking a stronger relationship with God, not active in church . Did hearing God's voice speak to me prompt me to change my direction , nope not really , I just thought ,"Hey , cool God talked to me !" . I believe when God talked to me then it was a strong hint for me to get back on the firing line .
A couple of years later it was much more than a hint , lol . I am so far from perfect but God desires to use me .

Speaking of Paul , something to consider on the "inner voice " assumption . Paul perceived information , how do you think that was done ?

Acts 27:10 And said unto them, Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives.