Bible Study should women wear head covering and men wear beards ? proof?

[reba]

Sheeesh no Who, but Paul, pinned these Words of the Lord ?
Paul penned the Lords word...in much of the NT

Same as Moses penned the history books... and John penned The Revelation among others... Penned as in a scribe doing the literal writing...

 

[Butch5]

I'd like to answer this question as well.

At Corinth there was a temple dedicated to Aphrodite, the goddess of fertility. The priestess' of the temple were prostitutes and there were also male prostitutes for the homosexuals. These male prostitutes may have grown their hair long.
The priestess' defied the customs of the time by not wearing head coverings and even shaving or cutting their hair short like a man's which advertised their immorality.
This was a problem at Corinth. It's also probable that some of the converts had came out of this cult.

We also have to remember what Paul said about our liberty in Christ, in chapter 10.
1Co 10:23 All things to me are lawful, but all things are not profitable; all things to me are lawful, but all things do not build up;
1Co 10:24 let no one seek his own--but each another's.
1Co 10:32 become offenceless, both to Jews and Greeks, and to the assembly of God;

I believe this is along the lines of what reba was saying. If she went into a church were they covered their heads she would be respectful and do that too, so as not to offend them and their conscience.

To think that Paul was limiting head coverings to 'in church or prayer time' seems to be flawed according to 1 Corinth 10.

Deb, do you have any primary sources that can verify this information? There is so much stuff that is simply wrong that to just accept things without verification is dangerous. As I told Chopper, I Googled the "Oracle of Delphi" I didn't get any primary sources. If I'm going to find out what happened I need to go to the source, not someone's opinion of the source. After I replied to the post I searched the Ante-Niene wrotings for the "Oracle of Delphi" and it returned 0 hits. Tertullian wrote chapters on the head cover. If the reason for it was the "Oracle of Delphi" I find it extremely hard to believe that he didn't even mention it somewhere in his work. None of the Ante Nicene writers mention the "Oracle of Delphi". Paul makes no mention of the "Oracle of Delphi". He makes no mention of priestesses, prostitutes, temples or anything, he simply appeals to God's created order and says specifically that the woman should be cover because of the angels. What do the angels have to do with priestesses or temples etc.? It doesn't seem to me that there is any evidence at all to support the idea that this was just something for the Corinthians.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,
You are quite correct in what you have stated. It is interesting to note that you will not find a single Christian who will dispute the validity and the applicability of 1 Cor 11:17-34 (the Lord's Supper), yet we have many Christians who not only dispute but reject the words of the Holy Spirit from verses1-16. Why is this? Two reasons: (1) the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist pastors and teachers refuse to properly exegete this passage, and in fact deliberately pervert it, and (2) there are multitudes of Christian women who resist the Lord's teaching regarding headship and submission, and would prefer to rule over their husbands, or dispute as to who is the head of the household. According to them, women's rights trump Bible truth.

The teaching on the Christian woman's head covering is a spiritual teaching (just like the Lord's Supper) which has complete validity for all Christians until the coming of Christ. It is similar to water baptism, which is also an ordinance. Therefore Paul says (v. 2) "keep the ORDINANCES, as I delivered them to you". The "ordinances" are in fact commandments of Christ handed down to the apostles to be handed down to Christians in each generation. That is what paradosis means (also translated as "traditions"). These are not man-made traditions (which Christ rebuked) but Divine ordinances.

If we believe that the entire first epistle to the Corinthians is the Word of God (and few will dispute that), then verses 1-16 are given to Paul by Divine revelation and authority. And since the holy angels do observe Christian gatherings (v 10) and are in complete submission to God, they should ideally see the local assembly in complete submission to God during worship -- men with uncovered heads, women with covered heads. There are plenty of Christians who believe this and practice it.

And it is certainly not a matter of "you can take it or leave it" according to Paul. What Paul says in verse 16 is that if any Christian desires to be contentious about this matter, let that person be fully cognizant that there is no such custom of UNCOVERING the head in all the churches of God. Because that is not stated explicitly, people reverse its meaning, but the context does not allow that.

Hi Malachi,

It's interesting that you mentioned the Lord's Supper because I was thinking of that also. Paul doesn't say it about the head covering but he does say about abusing the Lord's Supper that some were sick and some had died because they were abusing the Lord's Supper.

 

[Butch5]

Sheeesh no Who, but Paul, pinned these Words of the Lord ?
Paul penned the Lords word...in much of the NT

Same as Moses penned the history books... and John penned The R?evelation among others... Penned as in a scribe doing the literal writing...

Yes, but what I'm asking is whose words are they, Paul's or God's

 

[reba]

GOD's Notice I said the... words of the Lord

 

[Butch5]

GOD's Notice I said the... words of the Lord

Ok, then what did you mean when you said, "seems to me mankind is wanting to replace the coverings given to me by God..with a piece of cloth."

 

[reba]

1Co_11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
My hair came from God... the blond curls in the avatar and now the gray... Gods Word says my hair is for a covering... Some folks are not accepting/seeing /understanding 1Co11:15 as the covering God provided i see it as His provision .. they would have me cover my God given covering with something man made... maybe a hat, scarf maybe a burka. ...

 

[reba]

When i was bald.. (Chemo) i wore a covering..

 

[Butch5]

1Co_11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
My hair came from God... the blond curls in the avatar and now the gray... Gods Word says my hair is for a covering... Some folks are not accepting/seeing /understanding 1Co11:15 as the covering God provided i see it as His provision .. they would have me cover my God given covering with something man made... maybe a hat, scarf maybe a burka. ...

Ok, I don't think that fits with Paul's argument.

 

[reba]

We can disagree and still be family

 

[jocor]

I understood you clearly ..
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
You posted this The Scripture says this .. one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The subtil changes to the Words of God began long ago...

Are you implying that I am making subtle changes? If so, how?

 

[jocor]

Rounding the corners of the beard was done by those pagans of the ubiquitous sun-worshipping cults (e.g. the sun is also round), similar to the women baking round cakes for the queen of heaven (e.g. wedding cakes and communion wafers are traditionally round). And, of course, we're not to follow their ways.

Scripture does not address "rounding the corners of the beard". It addresses marring or destroying the corners of the beard (Lev 19:27).

 

[reba]

The scripture says this
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfille
You said this He fulfilled them all as far as obeying each one perfectly, but he did not fulfill them all to the point where they are no longer kept..

 

[jocor]

I don't believe this reference was to the Gentile learning Torah in the synagogues. The Gentiles had never received the law, but the Jewish converts had heard it preached all their lives in the synagogue and as long as they did mention Yeshua, they were fairly safe to keep going to the synagogues.

This is what most often happened, even to Jews, who professed, Yeshua as the Messiah. I highly doubt they would have tolerated a Gentile dog in their midst.
Joh 9:22 These things said his parents, because they were afraid of the Jews, for already had the Jews agreed together, that if any one may confess him--Christ, he may be put out of the synagogue;
Joh 9:23 because of this his parents said--`He is of age, ask him.'........
9:24-33
Joh 9:34 They answered and said to him, `In sins thou wast born altogether, and thou dost teach us!' and they cast him forth without.

How many synagogues did Paul get thrown out of and beaten by them, as well?
The author of Hebrews is clear about knowing the danger they were in and exhorted them not to turn back to the temple worship.

You have explained what you think Acts 15:20-21 is not saying. Now explain what it is saying.

 

[reba]

The scripture says this
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfille
You said this He fulfilled them all as far as obeying each one perfectly, but he did not fulfill them all to the point where they are no longer kept..

This is not a complete post have to run will complete later...

 

[jocor]

The scripture says this
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfille
You said this He fulfilled them all as far as obeying each one perfectly, but he did not fulfill them all to the point where they are no longer kept..

I know what I said. What are you seeing that differs from Scripture? Did he not obey every commandment that applied to him? Yes. Did he fulfill every aspect of the Law? No. Did he fulfill every aspect of prophecy? No.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you referring to the passage in 1 Corinthians 11? Paul doesn't elaborate one exactly how they were to cover their heads, just that they were. I suspect there were differences in different areas as we see a little later on,

I quote from 11 and 10. Not sure just what you are referring to?

"But we admonish you, too, women of the second (degree of) modesty, who have fallen into wedlock, not to outgrow so far the discipline of the veil,

So in North Africa only the married women covered their heads and with turbans.

Let them know that the whole head constitutes “the woman.”

Hmm...seems to me that would include the face would it not?

The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound; in order that the necks too may be encircled".

Well women today very often leave their hair unbond.
See it appears that there are two things going on. Culture and showing that one is a married woman who has a husband as her 'head'. She doesn't have her own head, it is hidden.
In our culture, we show that we are married women, have a husband, by wearing a wedding band and the husband does the same.
To remove the head covering in that culture, could show that one was not married, she was her own head. In our culture, it wouldn't mean that at all. Wearing a hat doesn't mean that. It would be pointless for that purpose. But wearing a wedding band does. An engagement ring is if for the same reason.

Deb, do you have any primary sources that can verify this information?

"The Acrocorinth, the acropolis of the ancient city, was heavily fortified during the Middle Ages. Nothing is left of the fabled temple to Aphrodite, but remains of the medieval fortifications, which were built on earlier foundations, may still be seen from the western side." [next to pic of the hill were the temple was]
Commentators usually assume that Corinth was an especially licentious city, a reputation it seems to have had in ancient times. Indeed, one of the Greek verbs for fornicate was korinthiazomai,a word derived from the city's name. Apparently this estimation was based on Strabo's report of 1,000 sacred prostitutes in the temple of Aphrodite on the Acrocorinth, an 1886-foot hill that rises above the city to the south. Recent scholars point out, however, that the charge was more likely an Athenian slander against the pre-146 BCE city since sacred prostitution was a Middle East custom, not a Greek one. No doubt Corinth, like other large port cities, had plenty of prostitutes to service the sailors, but they were not sacred."
http://www.abrock.com/Greece-Turkey/corinth.html
http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AphroditeCult.html

The geographer Strabo, who wrote around 20 AD said about Corinth, in his work at 8.6.20.....
"The temple of Aphrodite was once so rich that it had acquired more than a thousand prostitutes, donated by both men and women to the service of the goddess. And because of them, the city used to be jam-packed and became wealthy. The ship-captains would spend fortunes there, and so the proverb says: “The voyage to Corinth isn’t for just any man.”""
You can google Strabo, geographer, Corinth and find this quote on several different sites.

 

[Deborah13]

When i was bald.. (Chemo) i wore a covering..

Me, too.

 

[handy]

I've been reading through this thread with interest. A little too busy to chime in today, but once I get home, I'm going to share some thoughts on the subject.
Too bad there is no access to archives from years ago... I remember wading through this subject once or twice back then!

 

[AirDancer]

I've been reading through this thread with interest. A little too busy to chime in today, but once I get home, I'm going to share some thoughts on the subject.
Too bad there is no access to archives from years ago... I remember wading through this subject once or twice back then!

(About once every year/year and a half, this topic appears. Same with the topic of women speaking in churches...........)