Bible Study should women wear head covering and men wear beards ? proof?

[Chopper]

1Cor.11.16
But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Right! And, Corinth was the only place where head coverings were necessary.

I have to disagree with you here chopper. It seems to me that Paul's appeal is not to culture but rather God's created order.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1Co 11:1 KJV)

He concludes,

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. (1Co 11:1 KJV

The covering is showing that the woman is acknowledging God's order.

Oh well Butch. You can disagree all you want, that doesn't change a situation that only Corinth was facing. (Bald Women) Second, my post was not to discredit the foundational standard that God Himself set up as His chain of command. Long hair is the standard of authority for a woman that shows submission to her husband.

 

[Butch5]

Right! And, Corinth was the only place where head coverings were necessary.


Oh well Butch. You can disagree all you want, that doesn't change a situation that only Corinth was facing. (Bald Women) Second, my post was not to discredit the foundational standard that God Himself set up as His chain of command. Long hair is the standard of authority for a woman that shows submission to her husband.

Hi Chopper,

Can you give me any information that would suggest that this was for Corinth alone? History would suggest otherwise. I didn't say you discredited God's foundational standard, I was simply pointing out that it was the standard not culture that Paul was appealing to.

 

[Butch5]

In my understanding of the scriptures ..seems to me mankind is wanting to replace the coverings given to me by God..with a piece of cloth. Something man made as if these are not enough..
Covered by His Blood
My husband
my hair.. earned every one of them grays..

Hi Reba,

The words are those of Paul, are you saying that Paul represents mankind?

 

[Butch5]

Yes, we should obey the scriptures.
But, people interpret the scriptures differently.
As the scriptures stated, there is no such custom, neither the church.

If people interpret the Scriptures differently, the someone is wrong. Paul didn't write letters to the churches and say make of it what you will. He was dealing with issues and problems. When you post the "no such custom" passage you should post the entire passage.

16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (1Co 11:16 NKJ)

To apply the "no such custom" statement to what He said about the covering doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense to say to someone, "you have to do this and this, but not that. Oh, and if you're contentious don't worry about it.

However, it's not really an issue of interpreting the Scriptures. All we need to do is look at history to see that Christian women covered their heads from the time of Christ until just recently. Even as early as the 1950's women still covered their heads. We can see that women covered their heads from the beginning. The quote I gave from Tertullian showed that what was at question was whether or not it applied to virgins, there was no question about other women.

 

[Butch5]

There is another reason why the woman should be covered. When coming before God one should not present their glory in the presence of God and His glory. Paul says that the man should not be covered because he is the Glory of God. So we are not to cover the Glory of God. However, the woman is the glory of man, whose hair is given to her as her glory. So, when the woman comes before God uncovered she presents both her own and the man's glory in the presence of God's glory. I don't know about anyone else but I know I don't want to glory in myself in the presence of God.

 

[Deborah13]

Even as early as the 1950's women still covered their heads.

Butch that scripture is not talking about putting a little pill box hat on one's head or a little lace doilie like some the Catholics did when I was a kid. It's talking about burkas which cover all of a women's head/hair area. Which was the custom of the Jews. Orthodox Jewish women still cover all their hair.

The quote I gave from Tertullian showed that what was at question was whether or not it applied to virgins, there was no question about other women.

Just curious, when did he write this. Was it when he was a Montanist or after he broke with from the church and started his own sect?
If this was a practice in all the Christian churches why does he only speak of Corinth?

 

[Roro1972]

Does that mean Gentile believers can steal, murder, covet, take the Name in vain, break the Sabbath, etc.? No.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

Gentile converts would eventually learn the rest of Torah as they heard Moses read every Sabbath.

p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; direction: ltr; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 120%; widows: 2; orphans: 2; }p.western { font-family: "Calibri",sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; }p.cjk { font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; }p.ctl { font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 12pt; }


here is the long version I believe Jesus wants us to live by. The New Covenant not the old law. I could not load all verses in one post so this is not a complete list
Jeremiah 31:31

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant

Acts 21: 21, 25

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 13: 39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Colossians 1: 18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Ephesians 2 11-15 & 19-22

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Colossians 2:8-16
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Hebrews 12: 24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:14-15&17
Romans 7:4-6
Romans 4: 3-16
Romans 9:30-33
Heb 7: 11-28
11 Corin 3: 6-17

 

[Deborah13]

Can you give me any information that would suggest that this was for Corinth alone?

I'd like to answer this question as well.

At Corinth there was a temple dedicated to Aphrodite, the goddess of fertility. The priestess' of the temple were prostitutes and there were also male prostitutes for the homosexuals. These male prostitutes may have grown their hair long.
The priestess' defied the customs of the time by not wearing head coverings and even shaving or cutting their hair short like a man's which advertised their immorality.
This was a problem at Corinth. It's also probable that some of the converts had came out of this cult.

We also have to remember what Paul said about our liberty in Christ, in chapter 10.
1Co 10:23 All things to me are lawful, but all things are not profitable; all things to me are lawful, but all things do not build up;
1Co 10:24 let no one seek his own--but each another's.
1Co 10:32 become offenceless, both to Jews and Greeks, and to the assembly of God;

I believe this is along the lines of what reba was saying. If she went into a church were they covered their heads she would be respectful and do that too, so as not to offend them and their conscience.

To think that Paul was limiting head coverings to 'in church or prayer time' seems to be flawed according to 1 Corinth 10.

 

[reba]

Hi Reba,

The words are those of Paul, are you saying that Paul represents mankind?

Who, but Paul, pinned these Words of the Lord ?
1Co_11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

.
The intended lesson for us has little to do with the physical. It's about the spiritual reality...

...my post was not to discredit the foundational standard that God Himself set up as His chain of command. Long hair is the standard of authority for a woman that shows submission to her husband.

There is wisdom in that comment.
.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Who, but Paul, pinned these Words of the Lord ?
1Co_11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

That's a cute hair covering you have in that avatar Reba.
I hope you still wear it that way because that's how I picture you.

 

[Chopper]

The head covering issue is one area I have done some in depth study on, including consulting theologians. My findings were exactly the same as yours. If a woman feels she needs to cover her head with a hat, scarf, or whatever to be "holy", that's up to her. But the scripture was about exactly what you said it was about and none of us have the right to judge a woman who realizes this and sees no need to cover her head.

Thanks Obadiah. In our modern day churches, it's as you say! I have seen a shift from the legalism of the 70s which was accepted by most "Holy Churches" who were practicing "separation" because of the infiltration of worldliness into mainline churches like the "American Baptist Churches of America" and Congregational Churches who had "stuck it out", some Methodist Churches, and many Southern Baptist Churches.

Today, there is room for both positions. A person is not to judge what another feels is his or her liberty.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks Obadiah. In our modern day churches, it's as you say! I have seen a shift from the legalism of the 70s which was accepted by most "Holy Churches" who were practicing "separation" because of the infiltration of worldliness into mainline churches like the "American Baptist Churches of America" and Congregational Churches who had "stuck it out", some Methodist Churches, and many Southern Baptist Churches.

Today, there is room for both positions. A person is not to judge what another feels is his or her liberty.

Everything in triplicate.
I remember the olden days with the carbon paper when that was the norm.2

 

[Chopper]

The head covering issue is one area I have done some in depth study on, including consulting theologians. My findings were exactly the same as yours. If a woman feels she needs to cover her head with a hat, scarf, or whatever to be "holy", that's up to her. But the scripture was about exactly what you said it was about and none of us have the right to judge a woman who realizes this and sees no need to cover her head.

Thanks Obadiah. In our modern day churches, it's as you say! I have seen a shift from the legalism of the 70s which was accepted by most "Holy Churches" who were practicing "separation" because of the infiltration of worldliness into mainline churches like the "American Baptist Churches of America" and Congregational Churches who had "stuck it out", some Methodist Churches, and many Southern Baptist Churches.

Today, there is room for both positions. A person is not to judge what another feels is his or her liberty.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,

Can you give me any information that would suggest that this was for Corinth alone? History would suggest otherwise. I didn't say you discredited God's foundational standard, I was simply pointing out that it was the standard not culture that Paul was appealing to.

Google the "Oracle of Delphi". You will see the problem that the Apostle Paul was facing only in Corinth. The problem with some regional spiritual problems that Paul and others faced was that the remedy that was given for that problem, spread to other territories by word of mouth and practiced by folk who didn't have the original problem...."Out of control "Tongues" may be one of those situations that was a problem in Corinth because of their immaturity.

 

[Malachi]

Actually, I think it matters very much. Paul says that this covering should be worn because of the angels. Why because of the angels? What does the woman wearing the head covering have to do with the angels? I think we can get an idea from something else that Paul said to the Ephesians.

Butch5,
You are quite correct in what you have stated. It is interesting to note that you will not find a single Christian who will dispute the validity and the applicability of 1 Cor 11:17-34 (the Lord's Supper), yet we have many Christians who not only dispute but reject the words of the Holy Spirit from verses1-16. Why is this? Two reasons: (1) the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist pastors and teachers refuse to properly exegete this passage, and in fact deliberately pervert it, and (2) there are multitudes of Christian women who resist the Lord's teaching regarding headship and submission, and would prefer to rule over their husbands, or dispute as to who is the head of the household. According to them, women's rights trump Bible truth.

The teaching on the Christian woman's head covering is a spiritual teaching (just like the Lord's Supper) which has complete validity for all Christians until the coming of Christ. It is similar to water baptism, which is also an ordinance. Therefore Paul says (v. 2) "keep the ORDINANCES, as I delivered them to you". The "ordinances" are in fact commandments of Christ handed down to the apostles to be handed down to Christians in each generation. That is what paradosis means (also translated as "traditions"). These are not man-made traditions (which Christ rebuked) but Divine ordinances.

If we believe that the entire first epistle to the Corinthians is the Word of God (and few will dispute that), then verses 1-16 are given to Paul by Divine revelation and authority. And since the holy angels do observe Christian gatherings (v 10) and are in complete submission to God, they should ideally see the local assembly in complete submission to God during worship -- men with uncovered heads, women with covered heads. There are plenty of Christians who believe this and practice it.

And it is certainly not a matter of "you can take it or leave it" according to Paul. What Paul says in verse 16 is that if any Christian desires to be contentious about this matter, let that person be fully cognizant that there is no such custom of UNCOVERING the head in all the churches of God. Because that is not stated explicitly, people reverse its meaning, but the context does not allow that.

 

[Butch5]

Butch that scripture is not talking about putting a little pill box hat on one's head or a little lace doilie like some the Catholics did when I was a kid. It's talking about burkas which cover all of a women's head/hair area. Which was the custom of the Jews. Orthodox Jewish women still cover all their hair.

Are you referring to the passage in 1 Corinthians 11? Paul doesn't elaborate one exactly how they were to cover their heads, just that they were. I suspect there were differences in different areas as we see a little later on,

Just curious, when did he write this. Was it when he was a Montanist or after he broke with from the church and started his own sect?
If this was a practice in all the Christian churches why does he only speak of Corinth?[/QUOTE]

Started his own sect? I'm not aware of any sect that was started by Tertullian. However, his personal views aren't really the point. The historical evidence he gives in his work, 'The Veiling of Virgins' is. In it he describes some of hte practices of his day. For instance where he was in North Africa we find this.

"But we admonish you, too, women of the second (degree of) modesty, who have fallen into wedlock, not to outgrow so far the discipline of the veil, not even in a moment of an hour, as, because you cannot refuse it, to take some other means to nullify it, by going neither covered nor bare. For some, with their turbans and woollen bands, do not veil their head, but bind it up; protected, indeed, in front, but, where the head properly lies, bare. Others are to a certain extent covered over the region of the brain with linen coifs of small dimensions—I suppose for fear of pressing the head—and not reaching quite to the ears. If they are so weak in their hearing as not to be able to hear through a covering, I pity them. Let them know that the whole head constitutes “the woman.” Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound; in order that the necks too may be encircled".
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

We can see that in his day there were differences in the way the head was covered, but it was covered. He apparently didn't agree that all of the methods constituted a proper cover but they we covered.

 

[Butch5]

Google the "Oracle of Delphi". You will see the problem that the Apostle Paul was facing only in Corinth. The problem with some regional spiritual problems that Paul and others faced was that the remedy that was given for that problem, spread to other territories by word of mouth and practiced by folk who didn't have the original problem...."Out of control "Tongues" may be one of those situations that was a problem in Corinth because of their immaturity.

I Googled it but was unable to find any primary sources. Are you aware of any primary sources? Paul makes no mention of it at all but rather appeals to the created order.

 

[reba]

This talk of women and not wearing a head covering not being submissive wives ... is just not so for me... My husband is most surly the head of his house.... to the point if he decided a man made head covering was proper i would wear it..
So many men show their fear of women by keeping them covered up.. the middle east is full of em...

True submission comes from the inside not a piece of cloth

 

[Butch5]

Who, but Paul, pinned these Words of the Lord ?
1Co_11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

I don't want to put words in you mouth. Are you saying that these are Paul's words and not the Lord's?