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Should women wear headcoverings in church?

Hi Jethro

I didn't bring the subject of the law into this discussion, another poster did if you choose to retrace.
That's okay, because I've been wanting to say to you from the beginning that it is incumbent on you to show us that the head covering is a lawful matter, not just a matter of rabbinical judgment that isn't covered in the law.
 
I make no claim from the OT to justify the head covering in I Cor.11. I live, serve and die under the "better covenant."
 
Now this was a section of Scripture that my mom and I truly delved into, because it really is a mysterious statement. One thing that we learned was that many scholars believe that this is in reference to fallen angels, angels that did not respect God and submit to Him and women who show proper respect and submission to their husbands stand as a rebuke and an example to them. Others believe that this is in reference, not to fallen angels but to those angels who still serve God. Through our studies on this issue, mom and I determined that it really didn't matter if Paul was speaking specifically about fallen angels or not, (but we determined he probably wasn't speaking of fallen angels.) All angels, fallen or not, were created to be God's servants and messengers...His "helpmeets" (although He doesn't need help, He obviously desired to create angels as helpers to Him). As we women are our huband's helpmeets, the man being created in God's image, how we women submit ourselves to our husband is an example to the angels, and how the angels submit to God is an example to us.

But, again, this is far more than just a hat or veil...the key is the submission and respect shown...in whatever way it is shown. In our day and age, wearing a head covering isn't all that normal...but that doesn't let us women "off the hook" for being respectful and submissive.


I think it does have to do with the fallen angels...........

I Corinthians 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

It is for this reason that the woman ought to have the power, which is the authority of that God gives to each of us, when we are in Christ. This again is written to the end generation, and our power and authority come from the Word of God. That knowledge and wisdom that is in the Word of God is where our power comes from, and we must have that wisdom in our mind or we will not stand in the day of the deception. This goes way back to Genesis 6, and it pertains to what the angels did when they came to earth. It was for this reason that the flood of Noah came to be, for Satan could not destroy the Seed, so he tried to destroy the coming of Christ through Eve's daughters.

Genesis 6:1 "And it came to pass, when the men began to multiply one the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,"

So the subject that we are trying to learn is why does a woman today ever have to protect herself from angels? Got the subject here? Daughters are born to men.

Genesis 6:2 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

"Sons of God" are the "Nephilim" or "fallen angels". They are the angels that have committed themselves to Satan in his fall in the first earth age. These fallen angels saw that the daughters of flesh men were very beautiful, and they wanted to take them for their wives. Remember that flesh man was created from the dust of the earth, and the woman was created just like the man, also from the dust of the earth as a companion for each other. These fallen angels sought to have the things of flesh man, and their experiences of marriage, without being born of woman.

Angels are supernatural beings of a different form and dimension, and these fallen angels took for themselves the daughters that they wanted. This went directly against God's plan of our flesh age. They have the power and the supernatural wisdom to take what they wanted from flesh man.

Paul is instructing us on the third level of understand to keep your covering over your mind for these wicked angels are coming back. The battle is about to begin; are you prepared for it? It is a must that we understand God's overall plan for that plan is to seal in your mind what will happen, for when Satan and his angels arrive on earth it it to late to begin then. II Corinthians 11 will make it very clear how Satan will come upon the earth. .....
 
I Corinthians which contains Paul's INSPIRED, and NOT SIMPLY HIS PERSONAL JUDGMENT instruction on the head covering was addressed "TO ALL THAT IN EVERY PLACE CALL UPON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST--".
So Paul's word is law now? Moses has been replaced by Paul???

Paul was writing to the people of his time: he was not writing "scripture", he was writing a letter to the Corinthians to deal with issues specific to that church!

Or do you believe that women should be silent in church and not preach or teach, too???

After all, those are things written to the Corinthians that you claim apply to us today!

Is Joyce Meyer sinning when she teaches???

Legalism of the New Testament is no better than the legalism of the Old. You've just traded the Law of Moses for the Law of Paul, that's all. :nono2
 
Jethro Bodine

“What's the connection between arguing about head coverings and deciding not to accept God's offer of the forgiveness of your sins?
Sometimes I'm terribly frustrated with what people see and defend in scripture, but to use that as a reason to reject God's forgiveness isn't rational.â€


I can understand your perplexity if you don’t understand where I’m coming from. Even when I do explain where I’m coming from, there isn’t always the experience that enables understanding. That is sometimes frustrating to me. The only reason I bother to write this post is that I feel the pain of your frustration.

If according to your perception, Christianity, or a denomination thereof, is the current communal expression of what the Bible describes, then let me say this. If I had that same perception, I would be an Atheist. Or I would be an Eastern Orthodox or a Roman Catholic wherein there is at least a more reasonable historic connection between the Bible and what we see in those two denominations today than I see in Protestantism. Either way, you wouldn’t have been frustrated because I would be on forums more in keeping with Atheism or Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I’m only here because I’m neither Atheist nor Christian. Neither Orthodox/Catholic nor Protestant. And perhaps because I haven’t as yet been asked to leave due to my lack of faith in the Historic Biblical Christian Faith, whatever that may mean in the minds of the monitors. There is more than one philosophy of the Historic Christian Faith in Protestantism, and the philosophies of Orthodoxy and Catholicism concerning the Historic Christian Faith are different from them all and from one another.

What you may have missed is that in my perception of reality, the Bible and Christianity are two different things. That which the Bible presents, as I believe I understand it through Jesus teaching me what it means by what it says through the Holy Spirit, it is that which I believe to be true. I don’t believe that what I believe is merely an opinion or some personal theory. But I’m open-minded enough just in case there is something that I believe that is my own opinion. And I’m relativistic enough to realize that no one, including myself, knows everything. To that extent I’m reasonably tolerant of the beliefs of others. But I too can feel frustration. And the post you responded to is an expression of one of those moments of frustration. If I hadn’t been feeling that frustration, a lot in that post would have been left unsaid. And perhaps you would have ignored it, feeling nothing at all.

If you’re one who thinks that Christianity, or any denomination thereof, is communally connected to the Bible, then I must clarify my own position. To me, there isn’t any connection between the Bible and Christianity save one. And that is the Biblical interpretation practiced by Christians. It’s a Traditional practice that is the keystone upon which the denominations of Christianity have been built.

To me, Christianity is a man-made religion by nature and denominational in character as a natural expression of it’s man-made nature. There is a gulf in my mind between the Bible that I still believe has its source in a supernatural God, and Christianity that has its source in natural man. I don’t believe in the teachings of Christianity. But I still believe in the teachings of the Bible. Not in the Bible alone as Protestantism claims. The Bible being a written document of ancient writings is dead in itself. It must have a connection with some kind of life that becomes its life. I believe that life is intended to be Jesus Christ in whom is unity through the Spirit. In Christianity, through the practice of Biblical interpretation, that life is human life, through which is division.

The division over head covering is just one example of that human life. An example that is unnecessary because Paul said what he said to prevent any division over the matter. But according to the human nature of Christianity that expresses itself in division, even what Paul said to prevent division has become a source of division in Christianity. Making what Paul said of no effect in that religion. The division over this issue is only one such example of many that’s frustrating to me.

The fact that Christianity is full of such examples is what finally brought me to the realization that Christianity is merely another man-made religion, like modern Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism.

According to the Bible, there’s only one Divinely created religion. The religion described in the Old Testament. According to the New Testament, that religion no longer exists because reality has moved on. Reality as it was, was expressed by the religion that God himself created. Reality as it is currently, is expressed in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is expressed communally in the ekklesia as described in the New Testament. It is NOT my perception that the ekklesia as described in the NT and the Churches of Christianity are one and the same. To me, the NT was written to counter-act Judaism as it existed in the first century, and the Christian Judaizers who existed in that same time period. I don’t think anything was written about groups that would have been very obviously off base, such as Mithraism or the Gnostics. Christian writers in later centuries wrote against such groups.

Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism claims that many of their practices came out of Judaism, such as the homily/sermon and the extra-Biblical hymns. I agree. But not the Biblical Judaism described in the OT. Rather, Judaism as it existed in the first century. The Judaism that Jesus said was composed of the Traditions of men. Something that Protestantism never really freed itself of. Christianity is the true representative of the Christian Judaisers today. Two religions had it’s source in Judaism as it existed in the first century. Modern Judaism directly descended from the Pharisees, and Christianity directly descended from the Christian Judaisers.


In conclusion, what the NT proclaims of the provision offered by God in Christ, that I accept. What I don’t accept are the many authoritative proclamations in Christianity that claim to be explanations of that provision. Among them Justification by human faith alone, (Luther, Calvin, Protestant Evangelicals) and Justification by human faith and the human works that express that faith (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and many Protestant groups today).

I believe that Justification is by the faith and works of Jesus Christ alone, realized only in those who are in Christ, due to their belief in God and the acceptance of his provision in Christ (referred to as believing into Christ in the NT) as expressed by the work of water baptism, and by being baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ. Jesus Christ is the Justification of the one who is in Christ. Human faith only puts one into the position to be Saved....in Christ. Because I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion, and because I believe that the term Christian (follower of Christ) is associated with a man-made religion and is insufficient as a term of self-denotation for the one who is in Christ, I simply refer to myself as one who is in Christ.

I can’t accept the authority of human leaders over or in lieu of the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, the situation as it is in Christianity. I can’t accept how Christianity with it’s many denominational Churches has usurped the true expressions of the body of Christ on the earth that are the ekklesia. I can’t accept how brethren, the ones who are truly in Christ, have been deceived by Christianity into their present state of division. I can’t accept how these brethren have been deceived into thinking that unity is in doctrine more than in Christ and the Holy Spirit. I can’t accept most of the doctrines of Christianity, that to me are just the Traditions of men. And what I can’t accept is a source of a lot of frustration.

I can feel the pain of your frustration. Can you feel mine?

FC
 
Hi Stormcrow. Regarding your post # 165 you wrote: ''SO NOW PAUL'S WORD IS LAW NOW? MOSES HAS BEEN REPLACED BY PAUL???"

Sir, Paul began I Cor. 11 with:"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." Peter said (and I don't know if according to you its "scripture" or inspired) "For Moses (yes MOSES Stormcrow, emp. mine, webb) truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

BTW, WHERE did Paul get his teaching?? "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ" Gal.1:12. Now, wasn't it the Christ who is to be heard???

And, at Jesus' transfigeration when Moses, YES Moses and Elias appeared and Peter wanted to put them on equal to Jesus, the voice from heaven, YES, from HEAVEN spoke saying: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him" Matt.17:5.

And, did not Paul himself say he was not one whit behind any of the apostles? Ir must I submit to modern theology that what Paul wrote "was not writing scripture" or that its just his personal judgment??? I shall not for a moment, but no need to pile up more examples for you.

You also wrote: ''PAUL---WAS NOT WRITING 'SCRIPTURE'---" Will you please tell how you know that??

You wrote:''OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT IN THE CHURCH---?'' By now I know you do not accept the one who was not behind any of the apostles yet I shall give you what this inspired of the Holy Spirit man said: "Let your women keep silence in the churches:---", I Cor.14:34. Yes, I believe that.

Perhaps you missed my suggestion, yea challenge to you that we discuss this matter on the one-on-one forum? In a respectful yet rigerous way?
 
Now, wasn't it the Christ who is to be heard???

Christ affirmed women and treated them with respect. Your legalism does not.

You wrote:''OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT IN THE CHURCH---?'' By now I know you do not accept the one who was not behind any of the apostles yet I shall give you what this inspired of the Holy Spirit man said: "Let your women keep silence in the churches:---", I Cor.14:34. Yes, I believe that.

I accept God's ability to inspire. I do not accept your legalistic, Pharisaical interpretation of Paul's writings.

You also wrote: ''PAUL---WAS NOT WRITING 'SCRIPTURE'---" Will you please tell how you know that??

It's very simple, really:

{16} All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)

When Paul wrote this to Timothy, the New Testament canon didn't even exist. Paul was writing Timothy about what we call the "Old Testament."

Now, was Paul writing "scripture" or letters dealing with specific issues in specific churches for specific times and reasons???

Paul's words are inspired, but not a single one of them was written to us. We can take certain universal truths from what he wrote and apply them today, but dress is NOT one of them!

To treat every word of Paul's as legally binding throughout all time is simply wrong, and in that regard is no different than the way a Pharisee treated the Law of Moses: legalists, by the way, who were called "hypocrites" by Christ who would not follow the laws they saddled everyone else with.

Legalism = hypocrisy in any age. :grumpy
 
Christ affirmed women and treated them with respect. Your legalism does not.

I accept God's ability to inspire. I do not accept your legalistic, Pharisaical interpretation of Paul's writings.

It's very simple, really:

{16} All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)

When Paul wrote this to Timothy, the New Testament canon didn't even exist. Paul was writing Timothy about what we call the "Old Testament."

Now, was Paul writing "scripture" or letters dealing with specific issues in specific churches for specific times and reasons???

Paul's words are inspired, but not a single one of them was written to us. We can take certain universal truths from what he wrote and apply them today, but dress is NOT one of them!

To treat every word of Paul's as legally binding throughout all time is simply wrong, and in that regard is no different than the way a Pharisee treated the Law of Moses: legalists, by the way, who were called "hypocrites" by Christ who would not follow the laws they saddled everyone else with.

Legalism = hypocrisy in any age. :grumpy

So Stormcrow,

You accept that everything that you've ever written on this forum, which quotes anything from the NT, is invalid and a waste of time.

Have I got that right?
 
To everyone who has the slightest interest in the truth of Scripture:

The above example is a wonderful illustration of what happens when we decide to pick and choose what we can/should believe in scripture.

The very logical consequence is that there is nothing left to stand upon - no firm ground to build any belief structure upon.

You will note that Stormcrow says words to the effect that Jesus respected women.

Question: where did he get that from?

A: The gospels.

But, as he says, that's not the scripture Paul was referring to when he said that 'all scripture is given by the inspiration of God'.

Therefore, the statement that Jesus respected women, is not based on scripture either - and is probably untrue.

That's the quicksand he has fallen into, and all because of a stubborn refusal to accept a plain and simple instruction from the inspired apostle.

As it says in the Psalms:

Ps 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Scripture is our foundation. Do not destroy it.
 
So Stormcrow,

You accept that everything that you've ever written on this forum, which quotes anything from the NT, is invalid and a waste of time.

Have I got that right?

That's not even worth addressing with a serious response.

If you have a problem with what Paul wrote to Timothy, take it up with him.
 
To everyone who has the slightest interest in the truth of Scripture:

The above example is a wonderful illustration of what happens when we decide to pick and choose what we can/should believe in scripture.

The very logical consequence is that there is nothing left to stand upon - no firm ground to build any belief structure upon.

You will note that Stormcrow says words to the effect that Jesus respected women.

Question: where did he get that from?

A: The gospels.

But, as he says, that's not the scripture Paul was referring to when he said that 'all scripture is given by the inspiration of God'.

Therefore, the statement that Jesus respected women, is not based on scripture either - and is probably untrue.

That's the quicksand he has fallen into, and all because of a stubborn refusal to accept a plain and simple instruction from the inspired apostle.

As it says in the Psalms:

Ps 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Scripture is our foundation. Do not destroy it.

Yet another post not even worth a serious response. :toofunny
 
That's not even worth addressing with a serious response.

If you have a problem with what Paul wrote to Timothy, take it up with him.

I have no problem with what Paul wrote to Timothy.

I have a problem with what you wrote about what Paul wrote to Timothy.

So I'm taking it up with you.

All these quotes you've made from the NT, and all you've said about them are invalid, because of what you said. You don't believe that they are scripture - but correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Stormcrow

Legalism


I hope you will not respond to my post as you have responded to others, “Yet another post not even worth a serious responseâ€. You have said something that makes the Bible worthless in any practical sense. And they are concerned. As am I. Especially am I concerned, since the Bible is all I have physically to hold on to as far as my faith in the existence of the supernatural is concerned. Christianity is just a man-made religion to me. Without the Bible I’m an Atheist. Perhaps you will understand where I’m coming from. Perhaps not. But I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that what you said wasn’t quite understood in the way you intended. So I present this post to you with the hope that you will receive it in the spirit in which it is given.


I agree with you that there’s something wrong with legalism. But we disagree as to what legalism is and why it’s wrong.

I believe the Bible has a supernatural source. Both the Old and the New Testaments. When you say that what Paul wrote wasn’t written to us, you imply his writings are not something that Jesus can use to teach us. That the writings of Paul can no longer be considered to have a supernatural source. He only wrote out of his own experience and had to do with the first century situation, having nothing to do with us at all. And we can also ignore what he wrote about the Old Testament. What he wrote about the Old Testament doesn’t concern us either. Whether or not the OT is inspired, and how we understand that inspiration, whether like poetry or as guided by the Spirit of God, it means nothing to us because Paul said it, or Peter said it, and what they wrote wasn’t written to us. In a sense, I agree. If the Bible is taken to be a source of faith and practice by itself, as claimed by Protestantism.

I must say that if I left it at that, I would have no reason to believe whatever in the Bible says because it wasn’t written to me. The OT was written to the Jews and the NT was written to whomever followed them in the first century. The OT and NT writings would only have relevance to me if I was a practicing historian.

I may believe that modern Judaism and Christianity are religions that have a separate existence from the Bible. But not because the Bible or any part of it is not written to us. As an Atheist, I might use that idea as another reason to believe that Christianity is a man-made religion. But I’m not an Atheist. Not yet.

Legalism to me has to do with the practice of Biblical interpretation. When the interpretation becomes authoritative, then you have legalism. While the Bible itself isn’t authoritative by itself, it does have the authority of the life that uses it. If that life is human, of the human mind, and it becomes authoritative, then the authority is only human. If the authority is Jesus Christ as the one who teaches us by using the Bible, then the authority is Divine in the same sense that Jesus Christ is Divine and the head of the Body of Christ. The Bible under the tutelage of Jesus Christ isn’t legalism and is indeed timeless and is written for us and to us today, in the sense of a continuing present. The Bible under the tutelage of a human authority is just an interpretation of man. The Bible itself only has relevance to its own time. And the Bible becomes a document that is not to us today. The interpretation of the Bible is what becomes that which is for us today.

The Bible is a book of yesterday when used by itself, when understood as THE source of all truth by itself. When understood by the use or our own mind that determines what it is saying through the practice of interpretation. This is the Protestant notion. A notion that began with Martin Luther when he attempted to replace a human authority with a written authority.

The Bible is timeless when understood through the teaching of Jesus Christ. The Bible is timeless when used through the Holy Spirit connected to our human spirit. When we hear and heed the teaching of Christ, we are hearing what the Spirit is saying to the ekklesia. Otherwise we are only hearing ourselves. And when we only hear ourselves, and what we hear becomes authoritative, that becomes legalism.

The practice of Biblical interpretation is the Pharisees’ gift to the Christian. A gift received through the Judaisers of the first century. It results in the Traditions of men. The Tradition of men is legalism. Now for us today, and as it was with the Pharisees. As first century legalism caused the Jews to miss Christ, to miss the supernatural, so also it does to the legalist today. They have religion, they may have a zeal for God; but they miss God and his Son altogether. All they have is their religion and the interpretations that go with it. Some Christians are of that sort. Some Christians are a mixture of religion and reality. They are in Christ, but following a religion instead of walking by the Spirit.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians to counteract their many divisions. Divisions through following men instead of walking by the Spirit and heeding the teaching of Christ. Through allowing their sinful flesh to control them instead of allowing Jesus Christ live in them through their human spirits. Paul considered the Corinthians to be among those who started by the Spirit, but are being made perfect by the flesh.

Paul was clear when he said that women already had a head covering in their own hair. Paul was specific when he said that if there is contention, there is no Tradition concerning the matter. But because Paul is subject to the interpretations of men, that isn’t at all clear in Christianity, wherein what Paul wrote to alleviate division, has become a source of division. Ironic, to say the least.

What Paul said is not for us today if we are determined to interpret what he said. Then only the interpretation is for us today. It isn’t limited to Catholicism that follows its own interpretations of history and the Bible, because it’s just as true in Protestantism.

Paul said that woman are to teach only other women for a reason. He gave the reason. The woman was deceived, not the man. He didn’t say that lightly. He didn’t say that so that women would be under bondage to the men. He said it as protection for the ekklesia. A necessary protective principle. The man is under Jesus Christ, the woman is under the man who is under Jesus Christ. Man-hating women and freedom loving women have nothing to do with the Lordship of Jesus Christ, because that Lordship comes through the man, not in spite of the man. So also the abusive man and the authoritative man are not under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. And no woman is legally bound to be under such a man. Legalists would, of course, say otherwise.

The ministry of Joyce Meyer is a personal ministry. Such ministries are common in Christianity. She has many good things to say. She also has many things to say that are just part of common Christian Protestant Pentecostal culture that have nothing to do with what the Bible says. And she has many things to say that are out of her own experience and her own mind, some of which has even less to do with the Bible.

Christian ministries are only Christian ministries. And in a similar fashion as you think of what Paul said, not for us today, I think of Christian ministries, not for me today. The only good thing I can say about Joyce Meyer is that she doesn’t consider herself an authority. Only her listeners see her in that way. And it’s making her and her ministry tons of money. She is getting her reward in this life alone in that regard.

The influence of Christianity is very strong. And personal ministry is one of the ways that the denominational character of Christianity is perpetuated. Probably seen most clearly in the personal ministry of Martin Luther, the one who started the whole Protestant thing. The idea of remaining a part of a man-made religion, while perpetuating its nature and character, but with different doctrines arrived at through the art, the practice, of Biblical interpretation. Resulting in authoritative interpretations called doctrines, resulting in legalism in Christianity.

FC
 
I think god doesn't care if women wear hats to church or not.

He'd probably be irritated by people squabbling over the small stuff which may've had some cultural relevance back in the Dark Ages.

I do think, however, that it's rude and bad manners to wear hats and head-coverings in church.
 
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''I THINK'', ''I THINK'', ''I THINK''. When it comes to matters of God's word, its not what "I think" or what anyone else "thinks", its solely what God has said. There was a time in the book of Judges when men "did what was right in their own eyes." Have we regressed to that time?
 
STORMCROW

Your silence to my post 167 as well my repeated suggestion that we study this matter on the one-on-one is deafening. Your response has been that of hurling accusations of hypocrasy and legalism. To Asyncritus you reply "Not even worth a serious response." Such response is common to those who have NO "serious response."

No one denies II Tim.3:16 refers to the OT in the sense that when written the NT was not complete. But according to you II Tim.3:16 is not scripture so you pull your own rug from under your own feet.

At one time you write: "Paul's words are inspired, but not a single one of them were written to us" and at another time you write: that he "was not writing scripture---." It would have been interesting for you to have told us how anyone writing with inspiration of the Holy Spirit is not writing scripture.

You wrote:"Christ affirmed women and treated them with respect. Your legalism does not." Well, Stormcrow, this same Paul you reject as ''not writing scripture" wrote:"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Eph. 5:25. What higher, greater respect for the wife, for women hood will you find than this? Or this that Paul as well wrote: "I comment unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: that ye receive her in the Lord as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also" Rom. 16:1,2. Its this same Paul, sir who wrote in our chapter of question: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" I Cor.11:1. Please note Paul did not say "follow me only" but "as I follow Christ." I have many failings sir, but I try to follow him as he follows Christ. I believe Paul to be not only "inspired" but that what he wrote is indeed "scripture", the same as Peter or John, etc.

Now, inasmuch as you reject Paul's writings as "scripture", and he wrote about half the New Testament, I say again, inasmuch as you reject Paul's writings as "scripture" I shall respond no more to your posts on any subject. If much of the NT is not considered by you "scripture" we have no common ground. There once was a man in the OT (which we both agree is inspired scripture) who with his rash pen knife cut portions of the law out which he didn't like. His family lives today. Sad!
 
Christ affirmed women and treated them with respect. Your legalism does not.



I accept God's ability to inspire. I do not accept your legalistic, Pharisaical interpretation of Paul's writings.



It's very simple, really:

{16} All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)

When Paul wrote this to Timothy, the New Testament canon didn't even exist. Paul was writing Timothy about what we call the "Old Testament."

Now, was Paul writing "scripture" or letters dealing with specific issues in specific churches for specific times and reasons???

Paul's words are inspired, but not a single one of them was written to us. We can take certain universal truths from what he wrote and apply them today, but dress is NOT one of them!

To treat every word of Paul's as legally binding throughout all time is simply wrong, and in that regard is no different than the way a Pharisee treated the Law of Moses: legalists, by the way, who were called "hypocrites" by Christ who would not follow the laws they saddled everyone else with.

Legalism = hypocrisy in any age. :grumpy

Great Post...

Paul was certainly speaking about the OT, as it was what existed. That doesn't imply the NT doesn't have value, just clear to what he was referring to at the time he wrote it. Technically we don't have anything that says the NT is inspired, but we know these men were inspired and used of God, so we accept that it is. We must also accept why scripture may be inspired the men who put together bibles were not, often terribly mistranslated for political purposes, men decided what to include and exclude, etc...

However, the apostles writings of that time were in many ways connected to that culture, women were property, had no legal rights, etc.. Simply they addressed many issues based on the legal culture of that time. No where in the NT does a woman have a right to a divorce, only men, etc... Paul worked within the culture of the day.

Now we're a more progressed culture, women have rights, they're not property, Paul certainly would've spoken differently to us on many issues. What we look for is the tidbits of info written by the apostles and how we can apply that today.

We can't pick pieces of that culture and apply somethings if we're not willing to apply all things, so better to use common sense.

When people take sola scripture written for people of another time and try to enforce it today it certainly equals legalism. Paul abided by the legal system of that day, ours is much different.
 
I think god doesn't care if women wear hats to church or not.

He'd probably be irritated by people squabbling over the small stuff which may've had some cultural relevance back in the Dark Ages.

I do think, however, that it's rude and bad manners to wear hats and head-coverings in church.

I agree, I hope churches that want head coverings will enforce strict rules on the size. I often got stuck behind a old lady that wore a big hat when I was a kid. I can remember standing up and mom always smacking my leg and telling me to sit back down...:p
 
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