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Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?

OzSpen said:
SG,

All Christians need to be drawn to Christ before they believe: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day' (John 6:44 ESV).

How many are 'drawn'? 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 ESV).

This latter verse does not support universalism (all will be saved). Instead, since Golgotha God draws all people but they have the God-given ability to spurn that drawing.

Oz
Click to expand...
You need to study ‘helko’. That’s the Greek word for draw. It means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw with an inward power. If He is doing this, then all would be saved.

I posted this on another forum...

================


If you study out the Greek word ’helko’, it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw by an inward power. If He is drawing all men indiscriminately, then all would be saved. Just like in John 6:44, John 18:10, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, and James 2:6. In each verse, those drawn(some versions use dragged) shows ‘helko’ being effective. In other words, those drawn, ppl drawn by God(John 6:44 and John 12:32), Peter’s sword(John 18:10), the net Peter drew to the shore(John 21:11), Paul and Silas dragged to the market place(Acts 16:19, Paul dragged out of the temple(Acts 21:30), rich ppl dragging the oppressed before the court(James 2:6) shows that ‘helko’ is an effectual drawing. That when God draws, they come.
 
SovereignGrace said:
That’s the thrust of Paul’s argument in Romans 8:5-9.
Click to expand...

Paul is speaking to Christians at Rome.


We as Christians must choose to set our mind on things above, rather than the things of the earth.



For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:5-9



JLB
 
SovereignGrace said:
You need to study ‘helko’. That’s the Greek word for draw. It means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw with an inward power. If He is doing this, then all would be saved.

I posted this on another forum...

================


If you study out the Greek word ’helko’, it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw by an inward power. If He is drawing all men indiscriminately, then all would be saved. Just like in John 6:44, John 18:10, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, and James 2:6. In each verse, those drawn(some versions use dragged) shows ‘helko’ being effective. In other words, those drawn, ppl drawn by God(John 6:44 and John 12:32), Peter’s sword(John 18:10), the net Peter drew to the shore(John 21:11), Paul and Silas dragged to the market place(Acts 16:19, Paul dragged out of the temple(Acts 21:30), rich ppl dragging the oppressed before the court(James 2:6) shows that ‘helko’ is an effectual drawing. That when God draws, they come.
Click to expand...

SG,

I read and have taught NT Greek. I'm not a Johnny-come-lately with an understanding of the NT Greek language.

It's an extreme Calvinistic view, not supported by the Lexicons’ definition of helkuō (or helkō). Thayer agrees with Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich in defining elkuō: In Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 it means ‘a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off)’. However, in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 it is used ‘metaphorically to draw by inward power, lead, impel…. I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all’ (Thayer 1962:204-205).

Of John 6:44, Norman Geisler wrote that ‘no free human act can move toward God or do any spiritual good without the aid of His grace’ (Geisler 1999:35).

‘Draw’ is from the Greek, helkuo, and some extreme Calvinists (e.g. Ligonier Ministries) want this to mean ‘drag’ as in Acts 16:19; 21:30 and James 2:6.

In other passages such as John 18:10; and 21:6, 11 it can mean ‘drag’. The LXX translates with helkuō in Deut 21:3-4.

Does that mean all translations of helkuō must mean ‘drag’? Certainly not! There is a range of meanings for many words and helkuō in the NT is no exception.

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of helkuō in John 6:44 as, ‘figuratively of the pull on man’s inner life’ – John 6:44:12:32 (1957:251).

We face this challenge in many languages of the one word having several different meanings. Take the English 'wave':
  • To wave a greeting or farewell;
  • Gesture to sit closer;
  • Waves in the hair;
  • Surfing the waves;
  • Wave of Covid-19 has swept across the US;
  • Electronic waves come from my mobile phone;
  • Etc.
Therefore, asking me to study helkō is too late. I've already done it and my conclusions are different from yours:
You stated:

If He is drawing all men indiscriminately, then all would be saved. Just like in John 6:44, John 18:10, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, and James 2:6. In each verse, those drawn(some versions use dragged) shows ‘helko’ being effective. In other words, those drawn, ppl drawn by God(John 6:44 and John 12:32)
Click to expand...

You reach this conclusion because:
  • You don't appreciate that the one Greek word can have different meanings in different contexts, and
  • Your misunderstanding of free will means you'll never agree with anyone who proposes that God's drawing of people can be resisted.
Oz
 
OzSpen said:
SG,

I read and have taught NT Greek. I'm not a Johnny-come-lately with an understanding of the NT Greek language.

It's an extreme Calvinistic view, not supported by the Lexicons’ definition of helkuō (or helkō). Thayer agrees with Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich in defining elkuō: In Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 it means ‘a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off)’. However, in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 it is used ‘metaphorically to draw by inward power, lead, impel…. I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all’ (Thayer 1962:204-205).

Of John 6:44, Norman Geisler wrote that ‘no free human act can move toward God or do any spiritual good without the aid of His grace’ (Geisler 1999:35).

‘Draw’ is from the Greek, helkuo, and some extreme Calvinists (e.g. Ligonier Ministries) want this to mean ‘drag’ as in Acts 16:19; 21:30 and James 2:6.

In other passages such as John 18:10; and 21:6, 11 it can mean ‘drag’. The LXX translates with helkuō in Deut 21:3-4.

Does that mean all translations of helkuō must mean ‘drag’? Certainly not! There is a range of meanings for many words and helkuō in the NT is no exception.

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of helkuō in John 6:44 as, ‘figuratively of the pull on man’s inner life’ – John 6:44:12:32 (1957:251).

We face this challenge in many languages of the one word having several different meanings. Take the English 'wave':
  • To wave a greeting or farewell;
  • Gesture to sit closer;
  • Waves in the hair;
  • Surfing the waves;
  • Wave of Covid-19 has swept across the US;
  • Electronic waves come from my mobile phone;
  • Etc.
Therefore, asking me to study helkō is too late. I've already done it and my conclusions are different from yours:
You stated:



You reach this conclusion because:
  • You don't appreciate that the one Greek word can have different meanings in different contexts, and
  • Your misunderstanding of free will means you'll never agree with anyone who proposes that God's drawing of people can be resisted.
Oz
Click to expand...

I appreciate your vast knowledge of Greek having taught it. I am floundering around the best I can, using Mounce's Greek for the rest of us DVD series. I need to pick it back up. If you notice, I did not say helko has only one meaning, as I stated it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw by an inward power. Him drawing men is not done against their wills, as if they are drawn kicking and screaming against their wills, but that He effectually draws them. The other places, such as Acts 16:19 and Acts 21:30 shows they were forcibly draw/dragged. But I never stated helko means to literally drag off in every instance. My apologies for not making myself clearer in my post.
 
SovereignGrace said:
I appreciate your vast knowledge of Greek having taught it. I am floundering around the best I can, using Mounce's Greek for the rest of us DVD series. I need to pick it back up. If you notice, I did not say helko has only one meaning, as I stated it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw by an inward power. Him drawing men is not done against their wills, as if they are drawn kicking and screaming against their wills, but that He effectually draws them. The other places, such as Acts 16:19 and Acts 21:30 shows they were forcibly draw/dragged. But I never stated helko means to literally drag off in every instance. My apologies for not making myself clearer in my post.
Click to expand...

SG,

For clarification for me, do you believe in unconditional election and irresistible grace for Christian salvation?

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Isn't that dragging people into the Kingdom without choice? Sounds like a dictatorial god to me!
Click to expand...

No it is not. He draws them to Himself. He does not force them to come. All that are given to Son will come to Him. And He will raise them on the last day. :)

Do you accept double predestination with the non-elect damned by God for eternity?
Click to expand...

Yes, but I do not hold to equal ultimacy. It is a positive/negative. God, in electing His sheep, is active by choosing them from before the world began. He predestines them positively by electing them. The non-elect He justly left in their already condemned state, and He does this negatively by leaving them in their fallen state.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Yes, but I do not hold to equal ultimacy. It is a positive/negative. God, in electing His sheep, is active by choosing them from before the world began. He predestines them positively by electing them. The non-elect He justly left in their already condemned state, and He does this negatively by leaving them in their fallen state.
Click to expand...

SG,

That is unjust that a whole hunk of humanity is damned by the actions of God before the foundation of the world. You have redefined 'justly left' because you really mean elected to damnation.

I don't believe we have any grounds to further this conversation. I'm a convinced Reformed/Classical Arminian, believing this is the best biblical solution.

Oz
 
SovereignGrace said:
All that are given to Son will come to Him. And He will raise them on the last day. :)
Click to expand...

What scripture is that you are referring to?

John 6:39?

Why misquote it?


This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:39



JLB
 
JLB said:
What scripture is that you are referring to?

John 6:39?

Why misquote it?


This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:39



JLB
Click to expand...

Actually, I was melding together two verses, John 6:37 and John 6:39. I was not trying to misquote it, just my memory was a little foggy. :) That way I can kill two stones with one bird. :) :D
 
SovereignGrace said:
Actually, I was melding together two verses, John 6:37 and John 6:39. I was not trying to misquote it, just my memory was a little foggy. :) That way I can kill two stones with one bird. :) :biggrin
Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.


Just remember that Jesus said it was the “will” of the Father that He should lose none.


JLB
 
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