Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?

[Avigdor]

did

there aint no may about it !!!! no God allowed you to chose the choice is saying yes to the free gift. even though judas was condemned which was foretold a betrayal would take place never the less satan entered his heart . he opened the door he allowed him to come in.

Well whatever. I did say that I was in complete agreement that it happened like that for you. Why so upset? I just see the process differently, as is both your right and mine. Don't discount and slander my belief just because it is different than yours. I did not do that to you.

 

[Barnaby]

jerry63935,

"were all aggressive as well as your aggressive going off topic is called chasing rabbits . this forum is mild compared to the other one i belong to lol"

Please stop making false allegations. There was nothing aggressive in what I said. You do not own these Forums and have decided to take this up with the Moderators here.

 

[Avigdor]

NO. I would call that drawing...
as in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

I don't understand why people think using the word drawing changes what Calvinists believe about God being the One who chooses.

 

[Avigdor]

es, the above verse is AN INSTRUCTION....
NOT A statement, as you believe.

How do you know for sure it is an instruction and not a statement? Explain please.

 

[Avigdor]

The ordo salutis is:

1. belief
2. regeneration

Whatever that is.
It is the Calvinist view (and mine) that belief cannot happen until God has done something for us, That first He must regenerate us (the new birth) before we can believe. I know you don't belive this, nor is it necessary that you do. Just saying, it is how I see it. What do you think the new birth is anyway?

 

[Avigdor]

This comentary on my comments is so long, or it would be way to involved (not to mention useless and unnecessary) to try to clarify myself, but I am positive that I understand correctly what Calvinisim teaches and you obviously do not. Nothing wrong with that, just stating a fact.

I DID explain WHY your comments were conflictual so I won't linger on the above comment by you.

If you're not clear,,,how does a conversation take place?
And why would ANY explanation of Christianity be toooo involved?
If something cannot be explained in 25 words or less, there's some problem present.

Since I explained myself properly,,,and I explained what calvinism teaches,,,you cannot then tell me that I do NOT understand it.

If you think I don't understand it and you claim to be a Calvinist,,,you should correct me.
That's what I would do with anyone not understanding basic Christianity.

But, unlike God,,,I cannot force you.




We won't be changing each other's minds.
And thanks for explaining...ignore the above comments.
I post as I go.
Let's see what I've misunderstood about the reformed doctrine.


Huh?
Libertarian free will means we have NO EXTERNAL pressures but make our decision based on our own desires....especially moral free will.

You may be describing free will which is accepted philosophically above...but I'm not interested in that....this is theology.

I agree that Adam's sin has affected all of humanity. I agree that we are born sinners as both Jesus and Paul explain. Our sinful nature TENDS toward evil....but even unsaved persons can do good deeds. We are not so depraved as to be unable to see God around us.
God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Romans 1:19-20
It is up to us to serve either God or satan.
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We present OURSELVES to the one we wish to serve.


Regeneration before faith.
This is not taught in scripture.

The ordo salutis is:

1. belief
2. regeneration

We are JUSTIFIED by FAITH then we have peace with God.
1. FAITH
2. JUSTIFICATION
3. PEACE
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,



I've stated many times that Calvinism teaches that we are chosen UNCONDITIONALLY.
No need to explain UNCONDITIONAL....we all know what it means.
It means GOD CHOOSES US BASED ON NOTHING,,,except HIS desire and will and sends the rest to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

The N.T. teaches that God saves CONDITIONALLY.
And, unlike what you state above about not being able to actually KNOW how God chooses,,,the God of the bible WANTS man to know how to be saved and has thus given us both the written word and the Living Word (Jesus) so that we may know.

God want ALL MEN to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

WHY does God want ALL MEN to be saved?
Because He is a loving God.
1 John 4:8b
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And so, an all-good God that is Love itself, let's man know His CONDITION for salvation:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, the above verse is AN INSTRUCTION....
NOT A statement, as you believe.


NO. I would call that drawing...
as in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Please don't get your analogies mixed up with what you posted before that...
they do not agree.

Have you ever purchased 3 puppies
and you treated one really well and fed it and loved it and gave it a warm place to sleep....
And instead you mistreated the other two, made them go h ungry, did not love them, and made them sleep outside in the cold? And FOR NOT REASON,,,poor little things.

THIS is the god YOU serve.
[/QUOTE]
Well analogies are never perfect, that is why they call them analogies.
And no, I have never been a part of your analogy which was grotesque by the way, and a horrible accusation of how I view God. I'm assuming that we worship the same God, and in that case you are saying some pretty terrible things about Him. Not me. HIM. I will address the other parts of your post later. Battery nearly dead, lap top and me.
Blessings and love.

 

[jerry63935]

jerry63935,

"were all aggressive as well as your aggressive going off topic is called chasing rabbits . this forum is mild compared to the other one i belong to lol"

Please stop making false allegations. There was nothing aggressive in what I said. You do not own these Forums and have decided to take this up with the Moderators here.

trust me i have no desire to own a forum as per aggressive i see said the blind man t the deaf person 2 what a interesting conversation

 

[Avigdor]

You are aggressive and don't bear the Fruit of the Spirit, wondering.

I shall ignore you in future. I shall pray for your anger issues though.

God Bless and Goodbye.

My goodness Barnaby, I saw not a hint of aggrssiveness in Wondering's replies.

 

[Avigdor]

Since I explained myself properly,,,and I explained what calvinism teaches,,,you cannot then tell me that I do NOT understand it.

You may have been proper in the manner in which you explained, but you are grossly mistaken in what you say Calvinisim teaches. You get close but you then distort the meaning, exaggerate it to where it hardly resembles what we believe. What you say we believe is nothing more than your feelings about what you think we believe. And I'm telling you that you are wrong. I have no desire that you should believe as I do, I think it is irrelevant. And I know that you cannot truly understand my or anyone elses explanations and clarifications, as is obvious in how many times different people on here have tried to clarify your erroneous remarks on the subject. For one you don't want to understand, not really, and for another I guess maybe it is hard to open your eyes and see (not believe, just understand what the other person isreally saying) that maybe you have been a bit vicious, and dare I say------wrong.
And so Wondering, yes I can say that you don't understand Calvinisim. I am one. I listen to what you say and I can hear from your words that you don't understand. Ever heard the expression you don't know what you don't know?

 

[Avigdor]

I agree that Adam's sin has affected all of humanity. I agree that we are born sinners as both Jesus and Paul explain. Our sinful nature TENDS toward evil....but even unsaved persons can do good deeds. We are not so depraved as to be unable to see God around us.
God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Romans 1:19-20
It is up to us to serve either God or satan.

Yes the Bible clearly tells us that we all know of God's existence because He is evident and obvious in His creation. (There are no true athiest, only people who say/think they are). But you see from the same scripture what mankind has done with that knowledge and what God did to us because of it, turned us over to it. But the knowledge we have of God from nature will never save anyone. It takes all of the knowledge and revelation God has given us in His word to do that. And as is revealed in Jesus, a faith in Him.
Ofcourse unsaved people can do good things. He has given us a conscience. This will not save us. It's a mercy really, a mercy towards us from God, that we have the ability to know right from wrong, even though we do not always do right. Total depravity is not addressing mans ability to do good (though no matter how good our good, or how much good we do, it will never be enough to save us) it is only addressing how deep the fall penetrated our being. Calvinists say totally. We are so totally polluted, therfore all our acts and deeds have a seed of contamination, that we can do nothing to save ourselves. It takes an act of God. It takes God Himself. Just as He said. Total depravity and all the rest of TULIP is only dealing with the process of salvation. The need and the way it happens and the result.

 

[Avigdor]

Regeneration before faith.
This is not taught in scripture.

What about Jesus saying that a man cannot inherit the kingdom unless he is born again?
Regeneration is the new birth. In order to be saved, inherit the kingdom, you have to have faith in Jesus. What makes the difference between, one day you didn't believe and the next you did? Did we just decide to believe or did we actually believe? And if we actually believed, what changed in us that made that happen? Were we maybe regenerated?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Regeneration before faith.
This is not taught in scripture.



THis is a false statement. Faith before regeneration is NOT taught in scripture; rather, Regeneration before Faith is taught. (Aside: chronologically, they happen at the same time; logically Regeneration precedes faith.)

The Challenge
I will state verses showing Regeneration precedes Faith which can be stated another way: God gives us faith, we do not generate it on our own (we can't due to depravity). I challenge anyone to give scriptures that say Faith precedes Regeneration. Again, Scriptures as proof and not human self generated ideas of what is fair ... or "God loves me, so I reason he is obligated to give me a change". (He doesn't give fallen angels a chance)

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [The verse clearly shows Peter’s belief (faith) as to the identity of Christ comes from God]

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” Clearly, God is said to increase one faith. The apostles don't do it from within.

Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". He did not ask Peter to maintain his faith so that God could continue to favor him, but it is up to God whether a person's faith fails.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Who does the work... God and it says NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2). Clearly the work is BELIEVE.

John 10:11 I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His [own] life for the sheep ... But how does it come about that one is his sheep? By believing on him? Not at all. Jesus said to the Jews, not (as it is often represented): “You are not my sheep because you do not believe,” but: 26 But you do not believe Me [so you do not trust and follow Me] because you are not My sheep. From this we may infer that unless one is already in some sense one of his sheep he does not believe, and also that it is because one is already in some sense one of his sheep that he believes on him.

John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing. [It seems unbelievable to think and unbeliever can, of his own free will, have faith when believers can do nothing without Christ]

John 16:8 And He [the Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world about [the guilt of] sin [and the need for a Savior], and about righteousness, and about judgment: 9 about sin [and the true nature of it], because they do not believe in Me [and My message]; [You here see, that it is sin, not to believe in Christ: And this sin is seated, not in the skin, nor in the hairs of the head, but in man's very reason and will. Moreover, as Christ makes the whole world guilty from this sin, and as it is known by experience that the world is ignorant of this sin, as much so as it is ignorant of Christ, seeing that, it must be revealed by the reproof of the Spirit; it is manifest, that “Free-will,” together with its will and reason, is accounted a captive of this sin, and condemned before God. Wherefore, as long as it is ignorant of Christ and believes not in Him, it can will or attempt nothing good, but necessarily serves that sin of which it is ignorant.]

Acts 3:16 and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence. Where does faith come from? Says clearly that it "come through Him". No us, through Him. So clear.

Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them], 5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. Faith is reliant on what ... the "power of God".

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. No one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her. The Spirit has to regenerate or the person will not have faith.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, [If the unregenerate, spiritually dead, slave-to-sin natural man outside of Christ is capable of saving faith, why would a regenerate, born again, freed-from-sin spiritual man in Christ need a gift of faith?]

• Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh.

I could list more verses ... where are your verses (sola scriptura) supporting "Faith before Regeneration"????

 

[Fastfredy0]

What about Jesus saying that a man cannot inherit the kingdom unless he is born again?
Regeneration is the new birth.

Agreed, and to add to this thought ... note the term BORN AGAIN. It is an analogy. Unbelievers are spiritually dead and must be reborn. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to 'birth himself', someone (God) must do the work. It is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who is SPIRITUALLY DEAD to raise himself from the dead. Do you think when Jesus told Lazarus to arise from the dead that Lazarus had the power to do so (our oppenents often say "well God wouldn't as us to do something we are incapable of doing), surely not. Jesus did the work, Lazarus did not. Similarly, when God says "You must believe", you cannot do it. God has to do it.

 

[Avigdor]

Agreed, and to add to this thought ... note the term BORN AGAIN. It is an analogy. Unbelievers are spiritually dead and must be reborn. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to 'birth himself', someone (God) must do the work. It is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who is SPIRITUALLY DEAD to raise himself from the dead. Do you think when Jesus told Lazarus to arise from the dead that Lazarus had the power to do so (our oppenents often say "well God wouldn't as us to do something we are incapable of doing), surely not. Jesus did the work, Lazarus did not. Similarly, when God says "You must believe", you cannot do it. God has to do it.

Exactly. He also ask us to obey all His commandments even though we can't. Sin dwells in us. He cannot violate His own holiness and justice. It takes God Himself to meet the conditions required for any human, born of Adam, to be accepted into the household of God. Behold-----Son of God, Son of man, Jesus. Whether we are able to do what God requires or not, we are still responsible for our sins. Otherwise where is justice? And where are mercy and grace? And we do have a type of ability, God has given us everything we need to obey, physically and mentally. It is that we won't. If we feel a lie benefits us more than the truth, we will lie, irregardless of God. Fortunately after the Holy Spirit dwells in us, our sinful tendencies are curtailed as we grow, but we will never be perfect in this part of our journey. However, Jesus has paid the price of our redemtion, imputed His righteousness to us on and we are safe. And grateful. And humbled.

 

[jasonc]

Yes she never hid it

 

[OzSpen]

You are aggressive and don't bear the Fruit of the Spirit, wondering.

I shall ignore you in future. I shall pray for your anger issues though.

God Bless and Goodbye.

Barnaby,

Why don't you back quote so I know to which 'wondering' quote you refer?

Oz

 

[Barnaby]

Hi OzSpen,

I've decided to close my account here as too much antagonism and aggression for me to post here.

Stay Strong in Christ.....Barnaby

 

[JLB]

I was wondering if, after so many posts, we answered Michelina's question: "Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?" Or is it unsolvable and part of the mystery that will be revealed when Christ returns?

Let’s embrace Christ and His doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree that Adam's sin has affected all of humanity. I agree that we are born sinners as both Jesus and Paul explain. Our sinful nature TENDS toward evil....but even unsaved persons can do good deeds. We are not so depraved as to be unable to see God around us.
God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Romans 1:19-20
It is up to us to serve either God or satan

Amen.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.


JLB

JLB,
I stated the above.....not Avigdor

There's a problem with how he quotes.....
I've offered to help with this but no way....