Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?

[GodsGrace]

Avigdor

Hi Avigdor.....
You're going to have to learn how to use the quote feature.
It's really important or other mistakes will happen, as the one above.
JLB thinking YOU wrote something when really I did.

PLEASE let me help you learn how to use the quote feature!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

What about Jesus saying that a man cannot inherit the kingdom unless he is born again?
Regeneration is the new birth. In order to be saved, inherit the kingdom, you have to have faith in Jesus. What makes the difference between, one day you didn't believe and the next you did? Did we just decide to believe or did we actually believe? And if we actually believed, what changed in us that made that happen? Were we maybe regenerated?

The New Birth is when we become aware of God and make a choice to serve God instead of satan.
God reveals Himself to all mankind and then it's up to us to decide to serve HIM. I've posted verses on this so many times and you do not respond to the verses.

So....

First we become born again, as Jesus said in John 3:3 and John 3:5
We become aware of God and want to walk with HIM.

Then the Holy Spirit changes us,,,regenerates us....and gives us a new life.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

To regenerate means to make like new.
Notice that in 2 Corinthians Paul gives the order:

First we are IN CHRIST.
THEN we are a new creation.

We cannot be a New Creation if we are not In Christ first.
It is Jesus and the Holy Spirit that teach us HOW to be a new creation....
In Jesus we are new ... not before.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes the Bible clearly tells us that we all know of God's existence because He is evident and obvious in His creation. (There are no true athiest, only people who say/think they are). But you see from the same scripture what mankind has done with that knowledge and what God did to us because of it, turned us over to it. But the knowledge we have of God from nature will never save anyone. It takes all of the knowledge and revelation God has given us in His word to do that. And as is revealed in Jesus, a faith in Him.
Ofcourse unsaved people can do good things. He has given us a conscience. This will not save us. It's a mercy really, a mercy towards us from God, that we have the ability to know right from wrong, even though we do not always do right. Total depravity is not addressing mans ability to do good (though no matter how good our good, or how much good we do, it will never be enough to save us) it is only addressing how deep the fall penetrated our being. Calvinists say totally. We are so totally polluted, therfore all our acts and deeds have a seed of contamination, that we can do nothing to save ourselves. It takes an act of God. It takes God Himself. Just as He said. Total depravity and all the rest of TULIP is only dealing with the process of salvation. The need and the way it happens and the result.

In Romans 1:19-20 it's stated that men are without excuse...ONLY those men that do NOT choose God....Paul calls them fools...it is these fools that God turns over to the lusts in their heart.

I agree with you to a lot of what you said.
To tell you the truth Avigdor,,,I do have a bit of a problem with your statements.
I agree, however, that we are all polluted.
I agree that it takes an act of God....that would be His revelation to all mankind.
You say all of TULIP is dealing with salvation.

Let me ask you this:
HOW exactly is a person saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

I DID explain WHY your comments were conflictual so I won't linger on the above comment by you.

If you're not clear,,,how does a conversation take place?
And why would ANY explanation of Christianity be toooo involved?
If something cannot be explained in 25 words or less, there's some problem present.

Since I explained myself properly,,,and I explained what calvinism teaches,,,you cannot then tell me that I do NOT understand it.

If you think I don't understand it and you claim to be a Calvinist,,,you should correct me.
That's what I would do with anyone not understanding basic Christianity.

But, unlike God,,,I cannot force you.




We won't be changing each other's minds.
And thanks for explaining...ignore the above comments.
I post as I go.
Let's see what I've misunderstood about the reformed doctrine.


Huh?
Libertarian free will means we have NO EXTERNAL pressures but make our decision based on our own desires....especially moral free will.

You may be describing free will which is accepted philosophically above...but I'm not interested in that....this is theology.

I agree that Adam's sin has affected all of humanity. I agree that we are born sinners as both Jesus and Paul explain. Our sinful nature TENDS toward evil....but even unsaved persons can do good deeds. We are not so depraved as to be unable to see God around us.
God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time. Romans 1:19-20
It is up to us to serve either God or satan.
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We present OURSELVES to the one we wish to serve.


Regeneration before faith.
This is not taught in scripture.

The ordo salutis is:

1. belief
2. regeneration

We are JUSTIFIED by FAITH then we have peace with God.
1. FAITH
2. JUSTIFICATION
3. PEACE
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,



I've stated many times that Calvinism teaches that we are chosen UNCONDITIONALLY.
No need to explain UNCONDITIONAL....we all know what it means.
It means GOD CHOOSES US BASED ON NOTHING,,,except HIS desire and will and sends the rest to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

The N.T. teaches that God saves CONDITIONALLY.
And, unlike what you state above about not being able to actually KNOW how God chooses,,,the God of the bible WANTS man to know how to be saved and has thus given us both the written word and the Living Word (Jesus) so that we may know.

God want ALL MEN to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

WHY does God want ALL MEN to be saved?
Because He is a loving God.
1 John 4:8b
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And so, an all-good God that is Love itself, let's man know His CONDITION for salvation:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, the above verse is AN INSTRUCTION....
NOT A statement, as you believe.


NO. I would call that drawing...
as in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Please don't get your analogies mixed up with what you posted before that...
they do not agree.

Have you ever purchased 3 puppies
and you treated one really well and fed it and loved it and gave it a warm place to sleep....
And instead you mistreated the other two, made them go h ungry, did not love them, and made them sleep outside in the cold? And FOR NOT REASON,,,poor little things.

THIS is the god YOU serve.

Well analogies are never perfect, that is why they call them analogies.
And no, I have never been a part of your analogy which was grotesque by the way, and a horrible accusation of how I view God. I'm assuming that we worship the same God, and in that case you are saying some pretty terrible things about Him. Not me. HIM. I will address the other parts of your post later. Battery nearly dead, lap top and me.
Blessings and love.
[/QUOTE]
A,,,
AGAIN something I NEVER said is stated under my name.
I really cannot accept this.
Most on these threads know me and what I believe, but some members are new and it's not correct that they have an incorrect impression of what I believe.

UNTIL you learn how to use the quote feature...I will not be replying to you.
Not to be mean...but because the mistakes will just continue and I'd like to stop them right here.

Wondering

 

[Avigdor]

Avigdor

Hi Avigdor.....
You're going to have to learn how to use the quote feature.
It's really important or other mistakes will happen, as the one above.
JLB thinking YOU wrote something when really I did.

PLEASE let me help you learn how to use the quote feature!!!

wondering
Possibly I have figured out the quote thing, and I know I got it all messed up and no doubt will again. I asked the staff for a tutorial but haven't heard back. Any help would
be appreciated. I am working off a chrome book. I will respond to all your responses a bit later. Am having my morning coffee at the moment and going through them but will need to do my morning stuff, dog, breakfast, dishes, cleaning etc. before I sit down for the fun stuff!

 

[JLB]

Exactly. He also ask us to obey all His commandments even though we can't.

Wow!

...even though we can’t?


The scriptures teaches differently.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


His Commandments are not a burden to keep.


He has given us a new nature, empowered by His Spirit, so that we can do what we could not do without it, which is to walk according to the Spirit rather than walking according to the flesh.


Walking according to the Spirit is the way of life.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


He loves us and is for us, and has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.


Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:2-4



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
Possibly I have figured out the quote thing, and I know I got it all messed up and no doubt will again. I asked the staff for a tutorial but haven't heard back. Any help would
be appreciated. I am working off a chrome book. I will respond to all your responses a bit later. Am having my morning coffee at the moment and going through them but will need to do my morning stuff, dog, breakfast, dishes, cleaning etc. before I sit down for the fun stuff!

No problem.
I also don't have much time and this goes for any day...

It's easy.
I could do this...the staff is very busy.

Let's say the other member is writing a lot of paragraphs and you want to take each one separately and respond to it. Like you and I do.....

You have to separate that paragraph from the rest and answer to it and then continue on.

So this is how you do it....

Go to the beginning of the paragraph
Use this sign [
write this in it QUOTE (in caps)
then close it with this sign ]


Now go to the end of the paragraph to be separated
Use this sign [
write this in it /QUOTE
then close it with this sign ]

below that write what YOU want to say
and then continue....

You could try it with this post....as a test.

 

[GodsGrace]

Avigdor

I had to explain what signs to use instead of just writing it out for you and showing you,
because it really works! and I don't want to separate my own post to you....

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Isn’t anything opposed to this a false doctrine. What I’m seeing is that people against Arminianism are saying that some are destined to hell. Hahahaha! What a joke right? Can you imagine that we believed in what Jesus did for us and then we get casted into hell because God hated us before we were born lol.
Some joker on YouTube is trying to say that I misinterpret John 3:16 and that I’m of the tares. I told them I can laugh at them blindfolded and that I’m so upity and confident that I am saved.

Jn 3:18 does show that the unbeliever is destined be lost. Yet God did not predetermine for men which ones will be believers and which ones will be unbelievers. This is a choice each man makes for himself therefore each man is accountable, culpable for his own choices. This is why in the Bible men are commanded to believe, as Acts 16:31. The imperative implies man has both ability and responsibility to believe. Why command men to believe if God has already predetermined for men which ones will or will not believe? Why command men to believe if men do not even have the ability to believe?

--God requires belief in order for one to be saved
--if God solely predetermined for men which one will or will not believe, then....

...if you and I were unbelievers whose fault is that? Cannot be our fault for something that was 100% totally out of our control and own determination. Then our unbelief would solely be God's fault and failure. Matt 8:26 how could they be justly, rightly condemned for having "little faith" if God alone is in charge of men's faith? Their insufficient faith would be solely God's fault and Jesus rebuke should be towards God for their insufficient faith.

Jn 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "

The world is the total aggregate of men. Whosoever is the man from the total aggregate. Therefore believing is for anyone that chooses to do so. "World" does not refer to just a Calvinist elect that has been predetermined to by God to believe.

Matt 11:28-30 " Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Does the "all" here just refer to the Calvinist elect? Of course not for ALL (each and everyone) have been burdened and troubled by sin in one way or another and not just the so called Calvinist elect. So this is an open invitation to all, (each and everyone, none lacking) who has been burdened and troubled by sin to come to Christ to find rest unto their souls. Just as Jn 3:16 is an open invitation to all, (each and everyone, none lacking) to come to the cross of Christ in belief and find forgiveness of sins and rest unto their souls.

(John 3:14 is was not just SOME of those bitten by poisonous serpents that could go and look upon the brass serpent for healing, but any and everyone bitten could go and look upon the bronze serpent for healing. Likewise any and everyone 'bitten' by the poison of sin can go to the cross in belief and find healing for their sin)


(I am neither Armenian or Calvinist)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Isn’t anything opposed to this a false doctrine. What I’m seeing is that people against Arminianism are saying that some are destined to hell. Hahahaha! What a joke right? Can you imagine that we believed in what Jesus did for us and then we get casted into hell because God hated us before we were born lol.
Some joker on YouTube is trying to say that I misinterpret John 3:16 and that I’m of the tares. I told them I can laugh at them blindfolded and that I’m so upity and confident that I am saved.

Arminianism teaches that lost man has a free will and in this free will, he can either accept God's gift of salvation or reject it. However, if one does a study of the bible, they will realize that man's will, saved or lost, is not free, but bound by the nature of each person.

Here's the definition of free will:
1) voluntary choice or decision
2) freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

The reason why the will is not free is because the will is driven by desire. You will choose that which is more desirable, meaning, your desires drive your decisions. If a man comes up to you and says your money or your life, even if you have $10,000 on you, you will give him your money. Why? You desire to live more than you do your money, because if you're dead, what good would that $10,000 do you?

The lost person is hostile with God, is at enmity(having an ill-will towards) with Him. Paul stresses this in Romans 8:5-9.

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:5-9]

Look at how Paul broke down both ppl classes, the saved and the lost...

The lost:

They have their minds upon the things of the flesh, which is death
They are hostile towards God
Their mind does not subject itself to the Law of God and it is not able to do so(this is where Total Depravity/Total inability comes in)
They cannot please God
They do not possess the Spirit of God, being in an unregenerate state

The saved:

They have their minds set on the Spirit, which is life and peace
They are reconciled to God, are no longer hostile(no longer at enmity) towards God
They have renewed minds that are focused upon the Law of God
They can and do please God, as they have faith, which pleases God[Hebrews 11:6]
They do possess the Spirit of God, being in a regenerate state


Getting back to the will now. Each ppl class is driven by their will. The lost person's will is bent toward sin and Satan. Jesus said “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."[Matthew 6:24] Whether saved or lost, we all have a Master/master, and we are a slave to whichever Master/master it is. Why do you think Jesus said "Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."?[Matthew 12:29] The lost is in bondage to Satan, is his slave. Only God can come in and cast him out of the lost person's life and come in and be Ruler of their life. God must first free the lost to come to Him before they can come to Him. No one can free themselves from Satan's clutches. He must do this for them.

As Jesus so correctly said "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."[John 8:36]

 

[OzSpen]

Arminianism teaches that lost man has a free will and in this free will, he can either accept God's gift of salvation or reject it. However, if one does a study of the bible, they will realize that man's will, saved or lost, is not free, but bound by the nature of each person.

Here's the definition of free will:
1) voluntary choice or decision
2) freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

The reason why the will is not free is because the will is driven by desire. You will choose that which is more desirable, meaning, your desires drive your decisions.

SG,

That's a good Calvinistic understanding, but Scripture doesn't agree:

1. Starting with the OT, God's revelation to the Israelites was contrary to your position: 'But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord' (Josh 24:15 NIV). The Israelites could choose to serve the gods of other nations or they could choose to serve the Lord God. If I accept your 'bondage of the will' view (Luther), I would contradict this Scripture. God has given all of us the ability to make alternate choices.
2. What did Paul and Silas say to the Philippian jailer who had asked: 'He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:30-31 NIV). 'Believe' is an imperative in the Greek language - a command. It means, 'You believe'. God doesn't drag the jailer into the kingdom by unconditional election or irresistible grace.

In neither of the above examples does God force the people to believe, even though they are 'dead' in sin.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Jn 3:18 does show that the unbeliever is destined be lost. Yet God did not predetermine for men which ones will be believers and which ones will be unbelievers. This is a choice each man makes for himself therefore each man is accountable, culpable for his own choices. This is why in the Bible men are commanded to believe, as Acts 16:31. The imperative implies man has both ability and responsibility to believe. Why command men to believe if God has already predetermined for men which ones will or will not believe? Why command men to believe if men do not even have the ability to believe?

--God requires belief in order for one to be saved
--if God solely predetermined for men which one will or will not believe, then....

...if you and I were unbelievers whose fault is that? Cannot be our fault for something that was 100% totally out of our control and own determination. Then our unbelief would solely be God's fault and failure. Matt 8:26 how could they be justly, rightly condemned for having "little faith" if God alone is in charge of men's faith? Their insufficient faith would be solely God's fault and Jesus rebuke should be towards God for their insufficient faith.

Jn 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "

The world is the total aggregate of men. Whosoever is the man from the total aggregate. Therefore believing is for anyone that chooses to do so. "World" does not refer to just a Calvinist elect that has been predetermined to by God to believe.

Matt 11:28-30 " Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Does the "all" here just refer to the Calvinist elect? Of course not for ALL (each and everyone) have been burdened and troubled by sin in one way or another and not just the so called Calvinist elect. So this is an open invitation to all, (each and everyone, none lacking) who has been burdened and troubled by sin to come to Christ to find rest unto their souls. Just as Jn 3:16 is an open invitation to all, (each and everyone, none lacking) to come to the cross of Christ in belief and find forgiveness of sins and rest unto their souls.

(John 3:14 is was not just SOME of those bitten by poisonous serpents that could go and look upon the brass serpent for healing, but any and everyone bitten could go and look upon the bronze serpent for healing. Likewise any and everyone 'bitten' by the poison of sin can go to the cross in belief and find healing for their sin)


(I am neither Armenian or Calvinist)

Ernest,

Please learn the difference between an Arminian and an Armenian. An Armenian is a person from the nation of Armenia.

An Arminian is a person who considers the teachings of Jacob (James) Arminius are closer to Scripture that those of John Calvin.

Oz

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG,

That's a good Calvinistic understanding, but Scripture doesn't agree:

1. Starting with the OT, God's revelation to the Israelites was contrary to your position: 'But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord' (Josh 24:15 NIV). The Israelites could choose to serve the gods of other nations or they could choose to serve the Lord God. If I accept your 'bondage of the will' view (Luther), I would contradict this Scripture. God has given all of us the ability to make alternate choices.
2. What did Paul and Silas say to the Philippian jailer who had asked: 'He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:30-31 NIV). 'Believe' is an imperative in the Greek language - a command. It means, 'You believe'. God doesn't drag the jailer into the kingdom by unconditional election or irresistible grace.

In neither of the above examples does God force the people to believe, even though they are 'dead' in sin.

Oz

You have to realize the command in Joshua 24 was to the ppl of Israel. This was not given to the neighboring nations who were their enemies. Also, you've skipped over something and missed it in Joshua 24:14.

“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD."[Joshua 24:14]

They were serving the gods(idols) that their fathers served beyond River and in Egypt. Then Joshua said If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”[Joshua 24:15]


The "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve" is directed at the idols their fathers served, and so did they. Remember, he said "If is is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." He then tells them to choose between the idols beyond the River or the idols in Egypt their fathers served.

And addressing Acts 16:30-31, I completely agree that believing is necessary. Yet, none can believe unless they have been gifted faith. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”[John 6:29-30] Even the ability to believe comes from God.

 

[OzSpen]

No problem.
I also don't have much time and this goes for any day...

It's easy.
I could do this...the staff is very busy.





So this is how you do it....

Go to the beginning of the paragraph
Use this sign [
write this in it QUOTE (in caps)
then close it with this sign ]


Now go to the end of the paragraph to be separated
Use this sign [
write this in it /QUOTE
then close it with this sign ]

below that write what YOU want to say
and then continue....

You could try it with this post....as a test.

wondering,

This is what I do with your or any post when I'm replying. I choose the bottom right icon, 'Reply' for the first paragraph I want to reply to. Then I choose the Insert quote from the drop down menu, 'Insert':

Let's say the other member is writing a lot of paragraphs and you want to take each one separately and respond to it. Like you and I do.....

Here I reply to your quote. Then I go to another:

You have to separate that paragraph from the rest and answer to it and then continue on.

Answer


Etc

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You have to realize the command in Joshua 24 was to the ppl of Israel. This was not given to the neighboring nations who were their enemies. Also, you've skipped over something and missed it in Joshua 24:14.
“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD."[Joshua 24:14]

They were serving the gods(idols) that their fathers served beyond River and in Egypt. Then Joshua said If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”[Joshua 24:15]


The "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve" is directed at the idols their fathers served, and so did they. Remember, he said "If is is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." He then tells them to choose between the idols beyond the River or the idols in Egypt their fathers served.

And addressing Acts 16:30-31, I completely agree that believing is necessary. Yet, none can believe unless they have been gifted faith. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”[John 6:29-30] Even the ability to believe comes from God.

SG,

Are you saying the unbelieving Israelites who were serving other gods could not choose to reject those idols and serve the Lord? I didn't read anywhere in Joshua 24 that God dragged the Israelites back to serving God. They chose to do it because God gave them that ability of alternate choice.

Yet, none can believe unless they have been gifted faith.... Even the ability to believe comes from God.

Most people around me are unbelievers. So, is it your position that the ability to not believe comes from God?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Arminianism teaches that lost man has a free will and in this free will, he can either accept God's gift of salvation or reject it. However, if one does a study of the bible, they will realize that man's will, saved or lost, is not free, but bound by the nature of each person.

Here's the definition of free will:
1) voluntary choice or decision
2) freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

The reason why the will is not free is because the will is driven by desire. You will choose that which is more desirable, meaning, your desires drive your decisions. If a man comes up to you and says your money or your life, even if you have $10,000 on you, you will give him your money. Why? You desire to live more than you do your money, because if you're dead, what good would that $10,000 do you?

The lost person is hostile with God, is at enmity(having an ill-will towards) with Him. Paul stresses this in Romans 8:5-9.

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:5-9]

Look at how Paul broke down both ppl classes, the saved and the lost...

The lost:

They have their minds upon the things of the flesh, which is death
They are hostile towards God
Their mind does not subject itself to the Law of God and it is not able to do so(this is where Total Depravity/Total inability comes in)
They cannot please God
They do not possess the Spirit of God, being in an unregenerate state

The saved:

They have their minds set on the Spirit, which is life and peace
They are reconciled to God, are no longer hostile(no longer at enmity) towards God
They have renewed minds that are focused upon the Law of God
They can and do please God, as they have faith, which pleases God[Hebrews 11:6]
They do possess the Spirit of God, being in a regenerate state


Getting back to the will now. Each ppl class is driven by their will. The lost person's will is bent toward sin and Satan. Jesus said “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."[Matthew 6:24] Whether saved or lost, we all have a Master/master, and we are a slave to whichever Master/master it is. Why do you think Jesus said "Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."?[Matthew 12:29] The lost is in bondage to Satan, is his slave. Only God can come in and cast him out of the lost person's life and come in and be Ruler of their life. God must first free the lost to come to Him before they can come to Him. No one can free themselves from Satan's clutches. He must do this for them.

As Jesus so correctly said "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."[John 8:36]

You're explaining philosophical free will.

When referring to the bible, we always intend moral free will.
However your definition of free will is correct.

But I'd like to say that God has an AFFECT on our free will,
but He does not determine it.

If it is God that determines our free will then God is responsible for all evil in the world since that is the very definition of determinism.

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG,

Are you saying the unbelieving Israelites who were serving other gods could not choose to reject those idols and serve the Lord? I didn't read anywhere in Joshua 24 that God dragged the Israelites back to serving God. They chose to do it because God gave them that ability of alternate choice.

Let me break this down.

“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.”[Joshua 24:14]

This parallels to Deuteronomy 6 where Moses is giving the Jews a history lesson. There‘s an old saying, “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” Both Moses and Joshua gave the Jews a history lesson of all the errors their fathers made. They were warning them to not make those same mistakes. He then tells them to put away the gods their fathers served before them. So apparently there were at least some who were making the same mistakes their forefathers did by committing idolatry. He’s telling them to put them away and serve the LORD. I am sure we are in agreement this far. Now onwards and upwards...


If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”[Joshua 24:15]

Here is where ppl miss the context of ”choose for yourselves today whom you will serve.” Notice he said “if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD.” He then tells them to choose today whom they serve, whether the gods beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites. He’s telling them if they find it disagreeable to serve the LORD, choose between the idols their forefathers served, and were apparently serving themselves. That’s the context of those two verses.

Most people around me are unbelievers. So, is it your position that the ability to not believe comes from God?

Oz

No. They already don’t believe in their lost state. Only God freeing them enables them to believe.

 

[OzSpen]

Let me break this down.

“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.”[Joshua 24:14]

This parallels to Deuteronomy 6 where Moses is giving the Jews a history lesson. There‘s an old saying, “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” Both Moses and Joshua gave the Jews a history lesson of all the errors their fathers made. They were warning them to not make those same mistakes. He then tells them to put away the gods their fathers served before them. So apparently there were at least some who were making the same mistakes their forefathers did by committing idolatry. He’s telling them to put them away and serve the LORD. I am sure we are in agreement this far. Now onwards and upwards...

If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”[Joshua 24:15]​

Here is where ppl miss the context of ”choose for yourselves today whom you will serve.” Notice he said “if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD.” He then tells them to choose today whom they serve, whether the gods beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites. He’s telling them if they find it disagreeable to serve the LORD, choose between the idols their forefathers served, and were apparently serving themselves. That’s the context of those two verses.

No. They already don’t believe in their lost state. Only God freeing them enables them to believe.

SG,

I find this to be an evasive answer that squirms out of what the plain text states.

I will not twist the text like that.

Seems to me you are so programmed with Calvinistic thinking that you can't see the obvious that God tells people to choose. He did it from the very beginning with Adam & Eve in the garden.

Oz

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG,

I find this to be an evasive answer that squirms out of what the plain text states.

I will not twist the text like that.

Seems to me you are so programmed with Calvinistic thinking that you can't see the obvious that God tells people to choose. He did it from the very beginning with Adam & Eve in the garden.

Oz

Its not an evasive answer. Ppl’s desires are what drive their choices. The lost man is at enmity with God, is hostile towards God, and will never choose Him in this state. That’s the thrust of Paul’s argument in Romans 8:5-9. As he clearly stated because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,[Romans 8:7]. The lost are unable subject themselves to God’s Law. That’s total depravity/total inability. Plus, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[Romans 8:8] Why can’t men in the flesh please God? They are devoid of faith, which pleases God per Hebrews 11:6. I twisted nothing I posted. You just disagree with it.

 

[OzSpen]

Its not an evasive answer. Ppl’s desires are what drive their choices. The lost man is at enmity with God, is hostile towards God, and will never choose Him in this state. That’s the thrust of Paul’s argument in Romans 8:5-9. As he clearly stated because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,[Romans 8:7]. The lost are unable subject themselves to God’s Law. That’s total depravity/total inability. Plus, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[Romans 8:8] Why can’t men in the flesh please God? They are devoid of faith, which pleases God per Hebrews 11:6. I twisted nothing I posted. You just disagree with it.

SG,

All Christians need to be drawn to Christ before they believe: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day' (John 6:44 ESV).

How many are 'drawn'? 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 ESV).

This latter verse does not support universalism (all will be saved). Instead, since Golgotha God draws all people but they have the God-given ability to spurn that drawing.

Oz