Sign of the Beast

[Tzalam]

I think you're misinterpreting Scripture, LD.

As for the Son of man in Chapter 14 of Revelation,
what's your explanation for that? Who is He?
Well, He is the same One spoken of in Revelation 1, verse 11, and 13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

That's Jesus. It's also Jesus, in Chapter 14, "Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

Way over in Chapter 14, look what happens. A harvest.


Read what happens before the harvest.

Read what happens immediately after the harvest. A gathering of the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. Remember that?
Harvest of what?
Angels will gather and separate the wheat from the tares, when Jesus tells them to do so.

Let's look at it your way. I may be in error. YOU show ME where the rapture is specifically talked about, as happening BEFORE any tribulation.
And, just for fun, why do you suppose this generation is getting off the hook so easy? Why are we so special, that we won't have to endure any persecution, no nothing? Just "poof", and up ya go.

Now, you know, this rapture isn't going to take place until the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST.
So, all the people we've buried have to rise up before you do.
And, that isn't going to happen until the LAST TRUMPET IS SOUNDED.
God says it, not me.
When is the LAST TRUMPET BLOWN?
Who sounds the last trumpet?
Just answer that one. When does Holy Scripture, the Word of the Living God, say, the last trumpet is being sounded?

I patiently await your answer.

To any of these questions.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I think you're misinterpreting Scripture, LD.

As for the Son of man in Chapter 14 of Revelation,
what's your explanation for that? Who is He?
Well, He is the same One spoken of in Revelation 1, verse 11, and 13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

That's Jesus. It's also Jesus, in Chapter 14, "Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

Way over in Chapter 14, look what happens. A harvest.


Read what happens before the harvest.

Read what happens immediately after the harvest. A gathering of the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. Remember that?
Harvest of what?
Angels will gather and separate the wheat from the tares, when Jesus tells them to do so.

Let's look at it your way. I may be in error. YOU show ME where the rapture is specifically talked about, as happening BEFORE any tribulation.
And, just for fun, why do you suppose this generation is getting off the hook so easy? Why are we so special, that we won't have to endure any persecution, no nothing? Just "poof", and up ya go.

Now, you know, this rapture isn't going to take place until the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST.
So, all the people we've buried have to rise up before you do.
And, that isn't going to happen until the LAST TRUMPET IS SOUNDED.
God says it, not me.
When is the LAST TRUMPET BLOWN?
Who sounds the last trumpet?
Just answer that one. When does Holy Scripture, the Word of the Living God, say, the last trumpet is being sounded?

I patiently await your answer.

To any of these questions.

You are going off on a tangent. The issue here is who those are that are under the altar and if those are the Church or not. The question is if the Church is taken out of the way before the Trib and I believe I have answered this question.

 

[Tzalam]

[/quote]You are going off on a tangent. The issue here is who those are that are under the altar and if those are the Church or not. The question is if the Church is taken out of the way before the Trib and I believe I have answered this question.[/quote]

Ok, are those the only questions you can answer?
What about the last one?

 

[Tzalam]

If I'm right about when the rapture will happen, which will be mid Trib, and you're wrong, what are you going to do?
You might just blow a fuse, feel so let down and confused, by what you were told to believe, that you THEN believe the NEXT guy who tells you that "this mark here really isn't the mark of the beast" and you fall for THAT lie.
Are you going to be a part of the true church, the ones who might have to endure suffering, pain, hunger, maybe have their heads cut off because they REFUSE to take the mark of the beast, and they won't back down on their testimony for Jesus Christ?
If I'm right, and we don't get raptured out before the sufferings begin, before the mark is the only way for you to get water, gas, food, etc., what will you do? Will you fall away?

If YOU'RE right, and we DO hear the LAST TRUMPET call before any of the Tribulation begins, then, it's going to be easy street for me, too.
But, seriously, I think you're being set up by the devil for a fall into the Lake of Fire. I think you've been lied to, and you aren't prepared for any hard times at all. Your mind isn't prepared to endure sufferings.
Once you take that mark, you're doomed forever. No turning back. No turning back. Read THAT promise, in Revelation. IT'S THERE.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

If I'm right about when the rapture will happen, which will be mid Trib, and you're wrong, what are you going to do?
You might just blow a fuse, feel so let down and confused, by what you were told to believe, that you THEN believe the NEXT guy who tells you that "this mark here really isn't the mark of the beast" and you fall for THAT lie.
Are you going to be a part of the true church, the ones who might have to endure suffering, pain, hunger, maybe have their heads cut off because they REFUSE to take the mark of the beast, and they won't back down on their testimony for Jesus Christ?
If I'm right, and we don't get raptured out before the sufferings begin, before the mark is the only way for you to get water, gas, food, etc., what will you do? Will you fall away?

If YOU'RE right, and we DO hear the LAST TRUMPET call before any of the Tribulation begins, then, it's going to be easy street for me, too.
But, seriously, I think you're being set up by the devil for a fall into the Lake of Fire. I think you've been lied to, and you aren't prepared for any hard times at all. Your mind isn't prepared to endure sufferings.
Once you take that mark, you're doomed forever. No turning back. No turning back. Read THAT promise, in Revelation. IT'S THERE.

Well, this is where you are wrong. I have long held that there is more then one interpretation to this topic and that I am not someone who has all the answers. While I am a firm believer in the pre-trib rapture, if this is not the case, I am fine with that. In another thread I made the statement that-

If I am right, see you in the air.

If the mid tribs are right, see you in the streets trying to warn others of what is to come in the last half when the a.c. violates his peace treaty and we are gone.

If the post tribs are right, see you at the guillotine because I sure am not taking no mark.

No matter what, in the end, what matters is that we will see eachother at the throne of Christ, and nothing else is really a concern.

 

[Tzalam]

Hey, LD, I'm not being ornery, I WOULD like to see ALL the Scriptures you read to yourself, to tell yourself that the "rapture" WILL happen BEFORE ANY of the Tribulation.

Will you post those Scriptures?
:angel:

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Hey, LD, I'm not being ornery, I WOULD like to see ALL the Scriptures you read to yourself, to tell yourself that the "rapture" WILL happen BEFORE ANY of the Tribulation.

Will you post those Scriptures?
:angel:

And the point of that would be what? If this was a salvational issue, I would post away but I don't see what that will accomplish. More time then I think it is worth.

 

[Judy]

I don't hold to a Pre-trib or a Mid-trib.. I believe in a Pre-wrath rapture.
I believe that the great multitude in Rev. 7:9 are the raptured church throughout the church age. Which would acount for this innumerable amount of people standing before the throne of God.

As far as millions of people coming to the Lord after the rapture happens, as in a pre-trib view. I'm not to sure of that because in 2 Thess. 2:9-12 says that Satan with all power will show signs and lying wonders and will decieve those who do not believe and for that reason God will also send them a strong delusion so that they should believe the lie... so with all that happening I can't see where there will be an innumerable amount of people being saved as in the great multitude after the rapture of the church.

• 2 Thess. 2:9. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
  10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  11. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
  12. that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness[/*:m:6da35]

 

[Tzalam]

As far as millions of people coming to the Lord after the rapture happens, as in a pre-trib view. I'm not too sure of that because in 2 Thess. 2:9-12 says that Satan with all power will show signs and lying wonders and will decieve those who do not believe and for that reason God will also send them a strong delusion so that they should believe the lie... so with all that happening I can't see where there will be an innumerable amount of people being saved as in the great multitude after the rapture of the church.

• 2 Thess. 2:9. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
  10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  11. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
  12. that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness[/*:m:ec3b0]

That's a fantastic point! Excellent reasoning, Judy!
That makes so much sense, too. With all the strong delusions, it doesn't look good for anyone to be wanting to follow Jesus. So many are deluded now, it makes perfect sense that when the STRONG (energeia) delusion comes.
The mind is a battlefield, a spiritual battlefield. More people should know that, but, they don't.

 

[Tzalam]

Hey, LD, I'm not being ornery, I WOULD like to see ALL the Scriptures you read to yourself, to tell yourself that the "rapture" WILL happen BEFORE ANY of the Tribulation.

Will you post those Scriptures?
:angel:

And the point of that would be what? If this was a salvational issue, I would post away but I don't see what that will accomplish. More time then I think it is worth.

REALLY? WOW! :o "more time than you think it's worth." :o
Merely posting one or 2 Scriptures that will HELP me understand the
pre-trib rapture view is too much trouble for you?
But, it's not too much time for you to read this post, or to type YOUR answer? Please post just 2 Scriptures, or one, since that will only take about 2 minutes to look up here: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
and copy, and paste, here:

.

I would like to understand the pre-trib rapture reasoning. Scripturally.
Pleeeeeeze?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Hey, LD, I'm not being ornery, I WOULD like to see ALL the Scriptures you read to yourself, to tell yourself that the "rapture" WILL happen BEFORE ANY of the Tribulation.

As you can see, you asked for ALL of the scriptures that I read on this subject. That would be a very lengthy post and does not seem, even if you don't understand this, as something that is deserving of that much time as it is not a salvational issue.

I have given a link below that sums up my position very nicely. This is part of a book we have at Calvary Chapel called Calvary Distinctives that outlines much of the teachings we hold to and find in the Bible....


http://www.teachtheword.com/calvary_dis ... ter_08.htm

 

[Cameron]

I have long held that there is more then one interpretation to this topic and that I am not someone who has all the answers. While I am a firm believer in the pre-trib rapture, if this is not the case, I am fine with that. In another thread I made the statement that-

If I am right, see you in the air.

If the mid tribs are right, see you in the streets trying to warn others of what is to come in the last half when the a.c. violates his peace treaty and we are gone.

If the post tribs are right, see you at the guillotine because I sure am not taking no mark.

No matter what, in the end, what matters is that we will see eachother at the throne of Christ, and nothing else is really a concern

Lyric's Dad,

Sounds like this is an opportunity for you to do some more comparitive Bible study. Challenges are always opportunities from the Lord for growth.

I don't actually know anyone who has ever said they were a mid-tribber. I generally only bump into premill-futurists (pre-trib, prewrath, post-trib), amillls, preterists or historicists.

Although the opinion you are expressing is that of a pan-tribber, that recognizes not everyone can be right on this but since it is not an essential of the faith then one can "trib-relativist". Instead of "moral relativity, it is "tribulation relativity".

You say you are a firm believer in "pretrib". I would encourage you to be a firm beleiver in God's Word and be open ended about your firm beleif in "pre-trib". Understand the difference? Then, when a "pre-trib" idea is attacked, you won't see it as an attack on the Word of God, just an attack on how you understand it or more likely, how someone else is told you to understand it.

God's Word is not the problem. We are. Not everyone can be right on this issue. So the problem is bias and preconcieved notions about what the Word should say. The issue needs to be understood from a more foundational level that "I believe this is what the Bible says about the rapture and the tribulation".

This is why I ended up writing my book; to explore this more foundational level of how one determines a doctrine in the first place. How do we know what God's Word says about anything and what role does our bias play? Does God actually provide a method or show us a way to understand that involves as little of the "us" factor as possible? I think the answer is yes.[/b]

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: The Mark of the Beast

Abiyah: 666; I believe that this "mark" in their foreheads, which simply means in their brains, in their minds are the lies which satan deceives the world with at the end of this earth age BEFORE the Lord's Day. [This is the flood of the endtimes, satans's flood of lies.] Therefore, one MUST pay close attention to the 6th seal, the 6th trump, and the 6th vial, for SATAN WILL BE CAST OUT TO EARTH IN THE SIXTH TRUMP, HE WILL BE CAST DOWN TO EARTH ! [ Revelation 12:12 & Revelation 9:5; remember how Jesus Christ said that He had shortened the time for the elects sake? five months according to Revelation 9:5]. SATAN WILL PRETEND TO BE "CHRIST"; HE WILL BE THAT "ANTI-CHRIST"!!!! Those that believe that satan is Jesus Christ take the "mark" of the beast, for satan is that beast, you know that beast that looked like the lamb of God, but spake as a dragon. Remember that the TRUE Christ does NOT come until the SEVENTH TRUMP, THE FURTHEST TRUMP OUT, THE LAST TRUMP and there are SEVEN !

Abiyah
[/b][/quote]

Sputnik: Hi Abiyah ...thanks for the nice PM, I'll respond soon!

I agree with you :smt038 about 'the mark of the beast' being 'mental acceptance' by the individual as opposed to an actual 'physical' mark. I believe that one who receives this mark will be in total agreement and will fully cooporate with 'something' that Satan initiates in the future.

As far as the 'mark' in the right hand is concerned, I believe that one may not fully approve of 'whatever it is' that Satan initiates, but they choose to go along with it anyway.

The third alternative is, of course, the Seal of God'. Do you have any thoughts as to 'who' or 'what' is the actual entity behind the number of the beast? There are those, for instance, who would give as an answer to that question a resounding ...'The Roman Catholic Church!' Do the scriptures offer you any clues as to who the antichrist might be?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Re: The Mark of the Beast

Abiyah: 666; I believe that this "mark" in their foreheads, which simply means in their brains, in their minds are the lies which satan deceives the world with at the end of this earth age BEFORE the Lord's Day. [This is the flood of the endtimes, satans's flood of lies.] Therefore, one MUST pay close attention to the 6th seal, the 6th trump, and the 6th vial, for SATAN WILL BE CAST OUT TO EARTH IN THE SIXTH TRUMP, HE WILL BE CAST DOWN TO EARTH ! [ Revelation 12:12 & Revelation 9:5; remember how Jesus Christ said that He had shortened the time for the elects sake? five months according to Revelation 9:5]. SATAN WILL PRETEND TO BE "CHRIST"; HE WILL BE THAT "ANTI-CHRIST"!!!! Those that believe that satan is Jesus Christ take the "mark" of the beast, for satan is that beast, you know that beast that looked like the lamb of God, but spake as a dragon. Remember that the TRUE Christ does NOT come until the SEVENTH TRUMP, THE FURTHEST TRUMP OUT, THE LAST TRUMP and there are SEVEN !

Abiyah
[/b]

Sputnik: Hi Abiyah ...thanks for the nice PM, I'll respond soon!

I agree with you :smt038 about 'the mark of the beast' being 'mental acceptance' by the individual as opposed to an actual 'physical' mark. I believe that one who receives this mark will be in total agreement and will fully cooporate with 'something' that Satan initiates in the future.

As far as the 'mark' in the right hand is concerned, I believe that one may not fully approve of 'whatever it is' that Satan initiates, but they choose to go along with it anyway.

The third alternative is, of course, the Seal of God'. Do you have any thoughts as to 'who' or 'what' is the actual entity behind the number of the beast? There are those, for instance, who would give as an answer to that question a resounding ...'The Roman Catholic Church!' Do the scriptures offer you any clues as to who the antichrist might be?[/quote]The mark is actually said to be in the head or on the right hand. This is not a figurative mark but a true mark taken. Without it, people will not be able to buy or sale and will be executed. Do you think the people will just be asking if they have accepted the mark in their brains?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: The Mark of the Beast

Abiyah: 666; I believe that this "mark" in their foreheads, which simply means in their brains, in their minds are the lies which satan deceives the world with at the end of this earth age BEFORE the Lord's Day. [This is the flood of the endtimes, satans's flood of lies.] Therefore, one MUST pay close attention to the 6th seal, the 6th trump, and the 6th vial, for SATAN WILL BE CAST OUT TO EARTH IN THE SIXTH TRUMP, HE WILL BE CAST DOWN TO EARTH ! [ Revelation 12:12 & Revelation 9:5; remember how Jesus Christ said that He had shortened the time for the elects sake? five months according to Revelation 9:5]. SATAN WILL PRETEND TO BE "CHRIST"; HE WILL BE THAT "ANTI-CHRIST"!!!! Those that believe that satan is Jesus Christ take the "mark" of the beast, for satan is that beast, you know that beast that looked like the lamb of God, but spake as a dragon. Remember that the TRUE Christ does NOT come until the SEVENTH TRUMP, THE FURTHEST TRUMP OUT, THE LAST TRUMP and there are SEVEN !

Abiyah
[/b]

Sputnik: Hi Abiyah ...thanks for the nice PM, I'll respond soon!

I agree with you :smt038 about 'the mark of the beast' being 'mental acceptance' by the individual as opposed to an actual 'physical' mark. I believe that one who receives this mark will be in total agreement and will fully cooporate with 'something' that Satan initiates in the future.

As far as the 'mark' in the right hand is concerned, I believe that one may not fully approve of 'whatever it is' that Satan initiates, but they choose to go along with it anyway.

The third alternative is, of course, the Seal of God'. Do you have any thoughts as to 'who' or 'what' is the actual entity behind the number of the beast? There are those, for instance, who would give as an answer to that question a resounding ...'The Roman Catholic Church!' Do the scriptures offer you any clues as to who the antichrist might be?

Lyric's Dad: The mark is actually said to be in the head or on the right hand. This is not a figurative mark but a true mark taken.

Sputnik: Could be ...I don't doubt anything that may be contained in the symbolic Book of Revelation. Nothing in there is exactly cut and dried. I do believe, however, that this whole issue is one involving 'worship'. That is, either those who choose to worship Satan or those who choose to worship God. And, it's THIS that will sort out the sheep from the goats, so to speak. I believe that the scriptures in Revelation, when taken as a whole, are pretty clear on this point.

L.D.: Without it, people will not be able to buy or sell and will be executed.

Sputnik: That's right.

L.D.: Do you think the people will just be asking if they have accepted the mark in their brains?

Sputnik: No, of course not. But it need not necessarily be a visible mark that identifies those who follow the beast and those who don't. The government knows pretty well everything about each one of us right now, with or without a distinguishing mark. And, depending on WHAT it knows about us, it could cut off our credit right now if it had a mind to. So much for plastic. We need to use a great deal of latitude when attempting to decipher the precise meanings underlying the symbolisms of Revelation. Right now we can't guarantee being 100% right on anything.

 

[Cameron]

I think the Mark of the Beast has to do with the Image of the Beast which has to do with Satan's plan from day one in the Garden of Eden: Give man Satan's image.

Men are made in the image of God. We are "image-bearers" unlike angels who are messengers of God or "message-bearers". I think that the reason why this Mark is so horrifying, is that is the worst affront against God imaginable. During the time that the AC has rule, Satan will be attempting to cover the earth with his own glory. If he succeeds, then why would God ever come back to the fallen planet? This is why I think the AC rule is global. This is also why Jesus said that He would cut short these days for the sake of the elect (those who hold the testimony of Jesus).

I've always said that the current age (post-Flood era) bookended by the "Tower of Babel". One one end, man was united in rebellion against God. Then God cursed their languages and they spread out. (BTW - read the article on Nimrod at http://www.christiananswers.net - my favorite website). It is inevitable that someday man will overcome God's curse and be reunited again in rebellion. That is when the AC is in power. God's will then begin His wrath in the Second Global Judgment that destroys the world as described in the bowls and 1/3 strength in the trumpets.

 

[Jake99]

If I said that George Bush and those who led before him were the anti christ then at least you would be beyond the point of looking for one man or men who led you in the wrong direction. Live by the sword die by the sword is far from the way, but its been the way. Christ comes in a bubble after he has fought and conquered with his mind here on Earth and uses his armor and tongue to defend his position after revealing himself.

Cameron I have some tid bits for you since you are a writer of biblical prophesy. If you are listening I am telling of things that have past and of things yet to come.

 

[kerravon]

Christ comes in a bubble after he has fought and conquered with his mind here on Earth and uses his armor and tongue to defend his position after revealing himself.

That is what message 666 is. Conquering with the mind. Trying to find out why some Iraqi Muslims were in favour of liberation while others weren't. It all centres around whether or not one is a member of the tribe of anti-subjugators.

 

[Jake99]

Child abuse is the reason for the return of christ. No one understands, or stands against it as the savior does. Fortunately the world is capable of stopping it and its only a simple system and a super leader away from happening. According to Dr Don Colbert stress causes 70 to 90% of all doctor visits in the US. And this is the best place to live, or so they say. Don't get me wrong the US has done many great things, but stress is the silent killer that must be defeated and the US systems promote its growth. I look at the fruit that the tree bears and it could be so much better.

 

[kerravon]

Child abuse is the reason for the return of christ. No one understands, or stands against it as the savior does. Fortunately the world is capable of stopping it and its only a simple system and a super leader away from happening.

The simple system is FIGHT SUBJUGATION. My parents attempted to subjugate me as a child, but I refused to submit to their tyrannical rule, and paid the price.