Sin Free?

[watchman F]

Hi Watchman

Don't you think that that is just a little presumptuous of you to make such a claim ? Isn't that kind of judgement call totally up to God and not you ?

I want to believe that God see's them as being holy, but I am not going to make any such claim to the fact .

If every man falls short of the glory of God, I am sure that they did also. So I think we must be careful not to make any statements that hold only assumptions .

They did fall short, that is why they like all men needed salvation, but they being the pillars of the church knows as I do (apparently you do not) That God can indeed keep us from sinning., and if they had the faith in gGd they needed (which I am pretty sure they did0 they would have died holy, and unblamable in His sight.

 

[chestertonrules]

So your use of this word "purgatory" is only a religous word ? I know it is not biblical.

Why do you think I mentioned I Corinth. 3:15 ? I know that I didn't mention it because of some purgatory falsehood. Final purification ? You mean we are not pure in the state of our salvation now ? You think that there is a further process before we can enter into the presence of God ?

The word purgatory, like the word trinity, is not in the bible.

The teaching is, however.

Do you think you will be able to see God with the guilt of sin on your heart?

 

[Mysteryman]

So your use of this word "purgatory" is only a religous word ? I know it is not biblical.

Why do you think I mentioned I Corinth. 3:15 ? I know that I didn't mention it because of some purgatory falsehood. Final purification ? You mean we are not pure in the state of our salvation now ? You think that there is a further process before we can enter into the presence of God ?

The word purgatory, like the word trinity, is not in the bible.

The teaching is, however.

Do you think you will be able to see God with the guilt of sin on your heart?

HI

What I think you need to try and understand. Is that I am more in agreement with what you are saying, than what you might realize. However, It is just that I am not agreeing on how you are getting there in your understanding.

Do you know what the fire is meant to be, within I Corinth. 3:15 ?

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus tells us how to abide in his love.


If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love



What if you don't obey the commands of Jesus? Will you remain in his love?

If you're suggesting this means that Christ will withdraw his love if we sin, you're wrong.

Jesus says, "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full." He does not say He will withdraw His love if we fail to obey. He knows we will fall short of His obedience to the Father. He's saying if we keep his commands our joy will be full.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Certainly, anyone born again of the Spirit...having the mind of Christ will seek to obey everything we're asked for we delight in Him. Christ's love enables us to love others...will we obey perfectly the way Christ did...will He withdraw His love or our salvation when we fall short? Of course not. The Word is filled with promises that He will never leave nor forsake us, that He will keep us from falling...not keep us from sinning. When we disobey He chastens us because He loves us as sons.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Where we are weak, He is strong. Our greatest command is to love.

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

 

[glorydaz]

I hope you're not implying I used half a verse for the purpose of deceiving. As you can see, I didn't quote a verse, I stated a fact.

I am saying you have simply repeated what you have heard, and it was satan that caused those that you have heard to quote and teach that verse incorrectly.

I do tire of this attitude of self-righteousness...
How dare you accuse me of repeating what I have heard?
How dare you claim satan is behind what the Holy Spirit has shown clearly in the Word of God?

Your comment tells me you're walking in the flesh, because pride in one's own interpretations certainly doesn't come from the Lord. If you have to stoop to such levels when discussing the Word, you're desperate...plain and simple.

 

[watchman F]

I hope you're not implying I used half a verse for the purpose of deceiving. As you can see, I didn't quote a verse, I stated a fact.

I am saying you have simply repeated what you have heard, and it was satan that caused those that you have heard to quote and teach that verse incorrectly.

I do tire of this attitude of self-righteousness...
How dare you accuse me of repeating what I have heard?
How dare you claim satan is behind what the Holy Spirit has shown clearly in the Word of God?

Your comment tells me you're walking in the flesh, because pride in one's own interpretations certainly doesn't come from the Lord. If you have to stoop to such levels when discussing the Word, you're desperate...plain and simple.

Actually the Holy Spirit said those in Christ Jesus WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT will not be condemned. It is satan that causes people to leave out the activating portion of that promise, to cause them to somehow believe Claiming Christ as Savior is enough. I was given you the benefit of the doubt by saying you were just repeating false teaching. If you want to claim this demonic doctrine as your own that is up to you. And if you want to call my faith in what God can do in me self righteousness, well it is not the first time and wont be the last all I can do is stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, the likes of you will not talk me out of it.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually just the opposite, When i say walking after the Spirit is a condition to the promise of no condemnation, I am saying exactly what the word says.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

For you to say anything else would be a misrepresentation of the word.

Wrong...the verse says, Those who are in Christ walk not after the flesh.
You claim to be in Christ, but you're showing the flesh. ;)
Are you claiming you aren't in Christ?

Those who walk after the flesh are unregenerate...Those who walk after the spirit are born again.
There is no condemnation for those who are born again. We do not conduct our lives as though we are enslaved to fleshly sin, but after the Holy Spirit.

Those who walk after the flesh are in bodage to sin.
Those who walk after the spirit are freed from the bondage of sin.
We are children of the promise...freed from sins BONDAGE.

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

 

[watchman F]

Actually just the opposite, When i say walking after the Spirit is a condition to the promise of no condemnation, I am saying exactly what the word says.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

For you to say anything else would be a misrepresentation of the word.

Wrong...the verse says, Those who are in Christ walk not after the flesh.
You claim to be in Christ, but you're showing the flesh. ;)
Are you claiming you aren't in Christ?

Speaking a truth that you do not like or agree with is not showing the flesh. the fact is it is satan that wants people to believe they can continue in the flesh and not be condemned, but God says those that are in the flesh are His enemies. The fact that you do not like the truth of scripture doesn't mean I am in the flesh by stating in.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually the Holy Spirit said those in Christ Jesus WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT will not be condemned. It is satan that causes people to leave out the activating portion of that promise, to cause them to somehow believe Claiming Christ as Savior is enough. I was given you the benefit of the doubt by saying you were just repeating false teaching. If you want to claim this demonic doctrine as your own that is up to you. And if you want to call my faith what God can do in me self righteousness, well it is not the first time and wont be the last all I can do is stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, the likes of you will not talk me out of it.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

It's a simple reading. Why you insist on making it a condition where there is no condition but a description is beyond me. You need to look at the whole portion of scripture then maybe you'll see where you err. The yoke of bondage is what we're freed from when we become children of God.

Paul makes it very clear in Romans 8. Here he says...if the Spirit of God dwell in you, you are not in the flesh, but the Spirit. Those who have not the Spirit of Christ (those of the flesh) are none of His. Two classes of people. Those in the flesh and those in the Spirit.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[watchman F]

Actually the Holy Spirit said those in Christ Jesus WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT will not be condemned. It is satan that causes people to leave out the activating portion of that promise, to cause them to somehow believe Claiming Christ as Savior is enough. I was given you the benefit of the doubt by saying you were just repeating false teaching. If you want to claim this demonic doctrine as your own that is up to you. And if you want to call my faith what God can do in me self righteousness, well it is not the first time and wont be the last all I can do is stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, the likes of you will not talk me out of it.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

It's a simple reading. Why you insist on making it a condition where there is no condition but a description is beyond me. You need to look at the whole portion of scripture then maybe you'll see where you err. The yoke of bondage is what we're freed from when we become children of God.

Paul makes it very clear in Romans 8. Here he says...if the Spirit of God dwell in you, you are not in the flesh, but the Spirit. Those who have not the Spirit of Christ (those of the flesh) are none of His. Two classes of people. Those in the flesh and those in the Spirit.
[quote="Romans 8:9":1kd2b9tz]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[/quote:1kd2b9tz]
Read it all in context
Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This confirms exactly what I said, if we live after our flesh we will die, not matter what our confession is, but if we live after the Spirit we will live, because we will not sin.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Therefore as many that are not lead by the Spirit are not the sons of God even if they claim to be ''in Christ Jesus''. Walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit is what activates our promise of no condemnation and places us in Christ Jesus.


Like I said it is satan that uses the first half of Romans 8:1 to teach that people who live in sin will not be condemned as long as they are quote unquote ''in Christ Jesus''

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="watchman F":hfzzhabz] Actually the Holy Spirit said those in Christ Jesus WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT will not be condemned. It is satan that causes people to leave out the activating portion of that promise, to cause them to somehow believe Claiming Christ as Savior is enough. I was given you the benefit of the doubt by saying you were just repeating false teaching. If you want to claim this demonic doctrine as your own that is up to you. And if you want to call my faith what God can do in me self righteousness, well it is not the first time and wont be the last all I can do is stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, the likes of you will not talk me out of it.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

It's a simple reading. Why you insist on making it a condition where there is no condition but a description is beyond me. You need to look at the whole portion of scripture then maybe you'll see where you err. The yoke of bondage is what we're freed from when we become children of God.

Paul makes it very clear in Romans 8. Here he says...if the Spirit of God dwell in you, you are not in the flesh, but the Spirit. Those who have not the Spirit of Christ (those of the flesh) are none of His. Two classes of people. Those in the flesh and those in the Spirit.
[quote="Romans 8:9":hfzzhabz]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[/quote:hfzzhabz]
Read it all in context
Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This confirms exactly what I said, if we live after our flesh we will die, not matter what our confession is, but if we live after the Spirit we will live, because we will not sin.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Therefore as many that are not lead by the Spirit are not the sons of God even if they claim to be ''in Christ Jesus''. Walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit is what activates our promise of no condemnation and places us in Christ Jesus.


Like I said it is satan that uses the first half of Romans 8:1 to teach that people who live in sin will not be condemned as long as they are quote unquote ''in Christ Jesus''[/quote:hfzzhabz]
It doesn't matter what you say, it's what the Word says. It's hardly a question of who "claims" to be in Christ. It's who has actually been born again. Those who are in Christ have the Holy Spirit. We aren't freed from sinning, we're freed from the law of sin and death. You continue to confuse those who have not been freed from the law with those who have been freed. There are those who have not been freed, they of of the flesh. Those who have been freed from the law of sin and death are of the Spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The very verses you have quoted prove those who have the Holy Spirit are not those who are of the flesh. Unregenerate man is under the law of sin and death. Those who have been born again are under the Spirit of Life.
Here John makes it clear...

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[watchman F]

You need to re-read you bible and build your faith.

The Lord is very clear that those who deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth will become God's enemies and will be consumed by Raging Fire

 

[Mysteryman]

You need to re-read you bible and build your faith.

The Lord is very clear that those who deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth will become God's enemies and will be consumed by Raging Fire

HI

You deeply concern me watchman. Now you have Christians sinning so bad that they now can be consumed by raging fire, and become the enemies of God. Who taught you this , excuse my language - garbage ?

 

[watchman F]

You need to re-read you bible and build your faith.

The Lord is very clear that those who deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth will become God's enemies and will be consumed by Raging Fire

HI

You deeply concern me watchman. Now you have Christians sinning so bad that they now can be consumed by raging fire, and become the enemies of God. Who taught you this , excuse my language - garbage ?

I do? or does scripture?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[mondar]

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

 

[Mysteryman]

[quote="watchman F":380bh3iz]You need to re-read you bible and build your faith.

The Lord is very clear that those who deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth will become God's enemies and will be consumed by Raging Fire

HI

You deeply concern me watchman. Now you have Christians sinning so bad that they now can be consumed by raging fire, and become the enemies of God. Who taught you this , excuse my language - garbage ?

I do? or does scripture?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [/quote:380bh3iz]

Hi Watchman

Wow, talk about taking scripture out of context !

I think you need to read prior to verse 26 and after verse 31 . How about reading verse 14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified"

How about verse 17 - "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more"

And if you read closely , verse 25 is setting up the next six verses ! - "as the manner of some"

If we sin willfully, we will receive a loss of rewards. But by fire we are saved ! I Corinth. 3:15

Now carefully read verse 39 of Hebrews 10 - "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition"

Where you are missunderstanding this scripture is in verse 26 and the word "we". You think the word "we" means christians. It doesn't ! I assure you of this ! It is refering to those of the world. Once you give them the truth, if "they" recieve it not and continue to willfully sin, there is no more sacrifice for sins.

The words "as the manner of some" is talking about those of the world. The word "we" is in conjuction with this phrase > "as the manner of some" = those of the world. Actually it is a very, very poor translation to stick the word "we" in there. It should say - "them" or "they"

re-consider your train of thought, it is taking you down the wrong road of undersanding.

Bless

 

[watchman F]

You deeply concern me watchman. Now you have Christians sinning so bad that they now can be consumed by raging fire, and become the enemies of God. Who taught you this , excuse my language - garbage ?

I do? or does scripture?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hi Watchman

Wow, talk about taking scripture out of context !

I simply post a scripture and you claim it is out of context. Seems to me you just don't like what it says.

 

[Mysteryman]

I Peter 4:12 - "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trail which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you"

Verse 13 - "But rejoice inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings ; that , when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy"

Verse 14 - "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye, for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you : on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified"

I Peter 5:10 - "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen , settle you "

Galatians 3:1 - "O follish Galatians, who hath bewitched you,--- that ye should not obey the truth--- before whose eyes, Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth , crucified among you"

Need I say more ??

 

[Vic C.]

The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

Thanks Mondar. Chalk up another one to the importance of context. :amen

 

[watchman F]

I Peter 4:12 - "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trail which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you"

Verse 13 - "But rejoice inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings ; that , when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy"

Verse 14 - "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye, for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you : on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified"

I Peter 5:10 - "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen , settle you "

Galatians 3:1 - "O follish Galatians, who hath bewitched you,--- that ye should not obey the truth--- before whose eyes, Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth , crucified among you"

Need I say more ??

The question is were you trying to prove my point or yours. Because i think those scripture proves mine.