Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth...

[Heidi]

I'm not interested in "keeping [your] mouth shut". I'm interested in charitable and honest Christian discussion. Condemning judgment is unnecessary and childish.

Honest? :o Turning :"But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son" into, "He had no union with her for the rest of her life" is anything but honest! So you need to practice what you preach, catholic.

I couldn't resist reading one more of your contradictory statements. ;-)

Again, Heidi, find a Greek dictionary or lexicon.

"until" ("heos" in the Greek) does not always mean, "and then it happend" as I've evidenced for you in this very thread.

Otherwise, you'd better start keeping track of how many times you forgive someone, since , according to Matthew 18:22 you only forgive someone "heos" (/"until") seventy times seven.

Sorry, catholic, but I have the parallel bible which has the Greek, Hebrew, and Eglish translations of the bible and the Greek uses the verb that means "to know" for that passage. So I'd suggest you quit while you are behind. ;-)

 

[Heidi]

You also would have no trouble understanding that phrase if it were in any book but the bible. But since it contradicts your god's interpretation, you are making desperate but hopeless attempts to twist it into what you want it to say. Again, sorry, but you are not fooling anyone except those who also see the pope as a god. So your attempts to get me to twist the bible also will not work. It's clear as a bell to anyone who understands basic vocabulary. Therefore, you're back on my ignore list.

 

[CatholicXian]

I'm not interested in "keeping [your] mouth shut". I'm interested in charitable and honest Christian discussion. Condemning judgment is unnecessary and childish.

Honest? :o Turning :"But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son" into, "He had no union with her for the rest of her life" is anything but honest! So you need to practice what you preach, catholic.

I couldn't resist reading one more of your contradictory statements. ;-)

Again, Heidi, find a Greek dictionary or lexicon.

"until" ("heos" in the Greek) does not always mean, "and then it happend" as I've evidenced for you in this very thread.

Otherwise, you'd better start keeping track of how many times you forgive someone, since , according to Matthew 18:22 you only forgive someone "heos" (/"until") seventy times seven.

Sorry, catholic, but I have the parallel bible which has the Greek, Hebrew, and Eglish translations of the bible and the Greek uses the verb that means "to know" for that passage. So I'd suggest you quit while you are behind. ;-)

I explained the Greek "to know" as well. It has no specific sexual connotation.

Matthew 7:23 "I never knew you: depart from me". Same Greek word for "to know" as Matthew 1:25. So unless you're going to twist Scripture to say that someone has to have a sexual relationship with Christ to get to Heaven, you are WAY off in reading the Greek.

 

[CatholicXian]

You also would have no trouble understanding that phrase if it were in any book but the bible. But since it contradicts your god's interpretation, you are making desperate but hopeless attempts to twist it into what you want it to say. Again, sorry, but you are not fooling anyone except those who also see the pope as a god. So your attempts to get me to twist the bible also will not work. It's clear as a bell to anyone who understands basic vocabulary. Therefore, you're back on my ignore list.

I really hope you get that Greek "to know" situation cleared up before I'm back on ignore. It will definitely be helpful in the rest of your reading of Sacred Scripture. ;-)


Heidi, I am being faithful to the original language of the Scriptures. I am not twisting anything. English is one of the hardest languages-- it can be, and often is, misleading at times. That's why the Greek is often helpful in clearing up these confusions.

 

[gingercat]

I'm not interested in "keeping [your] mouth shut". I'm interested in charitable and honest Christian discussion. Condemning judgment is unnecessary and childish.

IMHO, I am charitable and honest. I sound condemning and judgmental maybe your are guilty of them :wink:

 

[Heidi]

I'm not interested in "keeping [your] mouth shut". I'm interested in charitable and honest Christian discussion. Condemning judgment is unnecessary and childish.

IMHO, I am charitable and honest. I sound condemning and judgmental maybe your are guilty of them :wink:

She most certainly is. Anyone who can turn scripture into the opposite of what it says can't have a rational conversation with anyone. So I've placed her on my ignore list. That's the only way to handle such people, gingercat.

 

[CatholicXian]

I'm not interested in "keeping [your] mouth shut". I'm interested in charitable and honest Christian discussion. Condemning judgment is unnecessary and childish.

IMHO, I am charitable and honest. I sound condemning and judgmental maybe your are guilty of them :wink:

Guilty of what?

You said,

According to Protestant's Bible, you are not going to be with Jesus.

With nothing to back it up, just the plain statement that you think I'm hellbound (something not in your power to promise). This is condemning and judgmental without reason.

When did Christ hand over the seat of Judge to you?

 

[gingercat]

Guilty of what?

You said,

According to Protestant's Bible, you are not going to be with Jesus.

Many people already showed you that RCC changed the Bible. This is serious offense, dear. You don't seem to care. You should check if protestants' claims are true. We have been repeating the same arguement over and over. Isn't that what you are doing with the others too?

 

[CatholicXian]

Guilty of what?

You said,

According to Protestant's Bible, you are not going to be with Jesus.

Many people already showed you that RCC changed the Bible. This is serious offense, dear. You don't seem to care. You should check if protestants' claims are true. We have been repeating the same arguement over and over. Isn't that what you are doing with the others too?

The difference between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles is that the Catholic Bible has more books.

I agree, changing the Bible is a serious offense, that's why I'll side with the canon drawn up in the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD (which lists the deuterocanonicals).

I figure if Christians for the 1500 years until Martin Luther were reading them, I ought to follow their example.

 

[Klee shay]

Jesus listens to me directly... I pray to Christ all the time.

and...

As to Jesus listening to Mary on my behalf... yes, of course. Jesus is the Great High King.

I understand the justification used for praying to Mary but why go to Mary when you know Jesus listens to you directly?

We do not venerate and honor Mary and the other Saints in Heaven to the exclusion of Christ. On the contrary, my veneration of the them leads to Christ all the more when I see the great grace He has bestowed on others who trusted in Him.

If Mary and all the Apostles didn't venerate themselves in their own lifetimes, for the sake of Christ's message; how do Christians justify doing it today?

Prayer does not make up merely one act out of my day. I am constantly praying throughout the day, and which each prayer, whether it be to Christ or His mother, I still remember and recognize Christ as the power and grace behind each prayer I have to offer.

Please don't stop praying because its good for the spirit, but I find a contradiction in your statement. If you pray to Mary you are not recognising the power and grace by which prayer comes by. You are recognising Mary as equal to the power and grace given by the sacrifice of Christ.

If that were true then why wasn't Mary hung from the cross as well as Jesus?

"wasting" prayers is your term (which I would object to... no prayer is a "waste" whether in vain or not-- at least they are turning to God (directly or indirectly through His Saints in Heaven) and God is the One who can change their hearts).

It's only a waste if you don't pray to Jesus; for it is only He that will hear you. Turning to God directly or indirectly though? Do you remember the verse in the bible where Jesus said exactly how mankind will be with God? Did he say through His Mother "indirectly" or His Disciples "indirectly"? Or did he say only through the Son? That is the ONLY way you can turn to God.

Jesus also said to let your 'yes' mean 'yes' and your 'no' mean 'no'? So why would Jesus say the only way to God is by Him alone, and yet also mean you could do it indirectly through Mary and His Disciples? Was Jesus a plain speaker or not? Did His 'yes' mean 'yes' without a doubt, and his 'no' mean 'no'. Or are His words to be re-translated into the Gospel of Man?

Now, as to Mary's thoughts... Mary desires all to know Christ. That is Mary's point and purpose-- to point to Christ. Her last words to us in Scripture are "do whatever He tells you" (cf. John 2:5).

Are you listening to Mary or Jesus? Did Jesus tell you to pray to his Mother when in need of a Saviour or deliverance from any grievance...or did he tell you to pray to Him? When he instructed His Disciples on the last Supper, did he in any way tell them to pray to His Mother for comfort and deliverance?

If Mary said, "do whatever He tells you," are you really listening clearly?

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say Mary is amazed at the great grace God has bestowed upon her to allow her to point any and all to her Son and His Redeeming Sacrifice. And His great suffering on the cross of calvary only makes that grace all the more wonderous and great.

Amazed at the great grace God has bestowed upon her, or fearful of God for the sake of Her Son? I don't mean fear as in a tool of the enemy. I mean fear as in trembling and humility before God and His greatness. When you're on your knees trembling full of humility; there is no room for amazement. When you see God - see the great stretch of His hand; you ONLY see God. Why would she waste amazement on her own humble role of the power of God?

Just my thoughts though. I fully understand (perhaps even expect) you to disagree. It's not my role to convert you from what is already the Lord's. Sometimes we all just need a little refocussing on where the Spirit really lies. To be honest, I'm still learning that for myself.

I thoroughly respect that your heart aims to be in the right place with the Lord. I do not question your desire to follow Him. What I do question however is the way you have been instructed to follow Him. If I am wrong then I will answer to Jesus on the Last Day; so please don't feel like you have to defend your beliefs against me. Jesus already has my number on that one, LOL. :wink:

 

[Johny]

So now Catholics are going to Hell. I'd like to correct that, all Christians go to Heaven. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

 

[Heidi]

So now Catholics are going to Hell. I'd like to correct that, all Christians go to Heaven. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Jesus said; "Not everyone who calls me Lord will go to heaven..." And he said this next to the passage about wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[CatholicXian]

Before I get started, I just wanted to say thanks for your kindness & charity. It is sincerely appreciated. (and makes discussing anything much more easier)

Jesus listens to me directly... I pray to Christ all the time.

and...

As to Jesus listening to Mary on my behalf... yes, of course. Jesus is the Great High King.

I understand the justification used for praying to Mary but why go to Mary when you know Jesus listens to you directly?

Because prayer is good. And God knows I need all the prayer I can get. Asking me 'why go to Mary when I know Jesus listens to me directly' is like asking me why I would ask you to pray for me. Prayer is good, that's the reason (cf. 1 Tim 2:1-4)

All prayer is efficacious only through Christ.

Me-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->you-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->my friend Michelle-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->Mary-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->St. Thomas-->Jesus-->the Father

We do not venerate and honor Mary and the other Saints in Heaven to the exclusion of Christ. On the contrary, my veneration of the them leads to Christ all the more when I see the great grace He has bestowed on others who trusted in Him.

If Mary and all the Apostles didn't venerate themselves in their own lifetimes, for the sake of Christ's message; how do Christians justify doing it today?

They were still "running the race", so to speak. But look at the esteem in which Abraham is held in the lifetime of the Apostles and Mary (or even especially by Paul... he calls Abraham the "father of our faith"), and Moses was held in great esteem as well (as were many other prophets/patriarchs of the OT).

Prayer does not make up merely one act out of my day. I am constantly praying throughout the day, and which each prayer, whether it be to Christ or His mother, I still remember and recognize Christ as the power and grace behind each prayer I have to offer.

Please don't stop praying because its good for the spirit, but I find a contradiction in your statement. If you pray to Mary you are not recognising the power and grace by which prayer comes by. You are recognising Mary as equal to the power and grace given by the sacrifice of Christ.

If that were true then why wasn't Mary hung from the cross as well as Jesus?

No, Mary is not (nor could she be) equal to Christ. All grace and power she has comes from God.
Me-->Mary-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->Jesus-->the Father

God's grace loses nothing by His using another person as an instrument of His grace. It's still His grace. He used mediators in all the covenants (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Christ)... and lost nothing by doing so, even in the OT. His divine Will was still accomplished... the Covenants failed because of man, not because of God. Thus, His grace was still communicated while the Covenants were unbroken. (or like the battle that Moses mediated-- as long as his arms were up, they were winning (through a great grace of God), but if he lowered his arms, they began to lose... that was God's grace active in and through the action of Moses--but just because Moses was the instrument, it didn't lessen the grace any)

"wasting" prayers is your term (which I would object to... no prayer is a "waste" whether in vain or not-- at least they are turning to God (directly or indirectly through His Saints in Heaven) and God is the One who can change their hearts).

It's only a waste if you don't pray to Jesus; for it is only He that will hear you. Turning to God directly or indirectly though? Do you remember the verse in the bible where Jesus said exactly how mankind will be with God? Did he say through His Mother "indirectly" or His Disciples "indirectly"? Or did he say only through the Son? That is the ONLY way you can turn to God.

Jesus also said to let your 'yes' mean 'yes' and your 'no' mean 'no'? So why would Jesus say the only way to God is by Him alone, and yet also mean you could do it indirectly through Mary and His Disciples? Was Jesus a plain speaker or not? Did His 'yes' mean 'yes' without a doubt, and his 'no' mean 'no'. Or are His words to be re-translated into the Gospel of Man?

Again, you assume that I would be bypassing Christ. I am not. The only way to God is by Christ alone. Jesus is the mediator of the New and Everlasting Covenant (1 Tim 2:5). It is Christ who is the mediator between God and man, whether I pray to Christ directly, or "indirectly" by asking another to pray for me. If I ask you to say some prayers for me, I am "indirectly" going to Christ through you... you are still bringing me to Christ in your act of prayer.
Me-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->you-->Jesus-->the Father.
The main point of all of it, is Christ. He is the access to the Father. This I have not once denied.

I fully believe this to a point of misunderstanding-- and it is a hard embrace. But hopefully the simple "charts" I made help to visualize it a bit better. That chart is the manner in which I see it.

Your complaint may next be that you are not "dead" like those Saints in Heaven. But I would have to disagree (while they may be "dead" in the sense that they are not living on earth, they are very much alive in Heaven... Mark 12:27). And, as members of the Church--Christ's Body-- we are connected. There is only one Body of Christ made up of all true believers (as opposed to a body in Heaven and a body on earth.. that would be two "bodies").

Now, as to Mary's thoughts... Mary desires all to know Christ. That is Mary's point and purpose-- to point to Christ. Her last words to us in Scripture are "do whatever He tells you" (cf. John 2:5).

Are you listening to Mary or Jesus? Did Jesus tell you to pray to his Mother when in need of a Saviour or deliverance from any grievance...or did he tell you to pray to Him? When he instructed His Disciples on the last Supper, did he in any way tell them to pray to His Mother for comfort and deliverance?

If Mary said, "do whatever He tells you," are you really listening clearly?

Christ told John from the Cross to take Mary into his "[home]" John 19:26-27. I gloss the word "home", because the English translation is a poor one. The Greek the Gospel writer used (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) is "idios"... his "own", his "self". And I think that drastically changes the meaning of the passage.

Also, as mother of Christ (of whom we are members of His Body.. the Church), Mary is the mother of the Church...exemplified in Christ's gift from the Cross, and John's reaction-- he took her into his "own".

So yes, I think, and pray that I am listening clearly and following the words of Christ and the examples of His Apostles.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say Mary is amazed at the great grace God has bestowed upon her to allow her to point any and all to her Son and His Redeeming Sacrifice. And His great suffering on the cross of calvary only makes that grace all the more wonderous and great.

Amazed at the great grace God has bestowed upon her, or fearful of God for the sake of Her Son? I don't mean fear as in a tool of the enemy. I mean fear as in trembling and humility before God and His greatness. When you're on your knees trembling full of humility; there is no room for amazement. When you see God - see the great stretch of His hand; you ONLY see God. Why would she waste amazement on her own humble role of the power of God?

I think you make a point, however I don't see how fearful humility would dissipate the wonder and awe (or amazement) of the power and grace of God. That fear and humbleness would only underscore and deepen the amazement of God.

I don't see how they would be (or could be) mutually exclusive of one another. But I do really like the addition (and think it good and necessary).

Just my thoughts though. I fully understand (perhaps even expect) you to disagree. It's not my role to convert you from what is already the Lord's. Sometimes we all just need a little refocussing on where the Spirit really lies. To be honest, I'm still learning that for myself.

I thoroughly respect that your heart aims to be in the right place with the Lord. I do not question your desire to follow Him. What I do question however is the way you have been instructed to follow Him. If I am wrong then I will answer to Jesus on the Last Day; so please don't feel like you have to defend your beliefs against me. Jesus already has my number on that one, LOL. :wink:

Fair enough.

And I don't mind discussing this at all with you. Your honesty and ability to remain kind and charitable, as I said from the outset of this post, is awesome, and I am truly thankful and glad of it. I think we can agree to disagree where necessary and still remain open to a better understanding of "the other side of the coin".

 

[Klee shay]

It certainly makes it easier to talk when we aren't questioning each other's faith, LOL.

Because prayer is good. And God knows I need all the prayer I can get. Asking me 'why go to Mary when I know Jesus listens to me directly' is like asking me why I would ask you to pray for me. Prayer is good, that's the reason (cf. 1 Tim 2:1-4)

All prayer is efficacious only through Christ.

I can see this logic as reasonable...but I still believe Jesus is the only source where prayer is answered. I think we only disagree on how we go about praying.

If you asked me to pray for you and I agreed, this is good for my faith and teaches me about thinking beyond my own needs. It is the living body of Christ doing as He asked us to do. He asked us to pray for one another.

He did not ask us to pray to anyone but him though. Would you agree on that? Jesus asked us only to pray to our Father in Heaven.

But look at the esteem in which Abraham is held in the lifetime of the Apostles and Mary (or even especially by Paul... he calls Abraham the "father of our faith"), and Moses was held in great esteem as well (as were many other prophets/patriarchs of the OT).

I agree that Abraham and Moses were held in great esteem...so much so that Christ had to die over it later on when he tested their teachings with the true word of God.

Was there ever a statue of these great men kept in the temple however? Were people told to pray to their forefathers when they indirectly wanted God to answer their prayers? Those are real questions by the way, for I don't know the answers myself. I cannot recall anything like this happening but then I'm not an avid scholar of the OT yet either.

God's grace loses nothing by His using another person as an instrument of His grace. It's still His grace. He used mediators in all the covenants (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Christ)... and lost nothing by doing so, even in the OT. His divine Will was still accomplished... the Covenants failed because of man, not because of God. Thus, His grace was still communicated while the Covenants were unbroken. (or like the battle that Moses mediated-- as long as his arms were up, they were winning (through a great grace of God), but if he lowered his arms, they began to lose... that was God's grace active in and through the action of Moses--but just because Moses was the instrument, it didn't lessen the grace any)

Agreed for the most part, but then I must ask why send His Son to sacrifice if His grace didn't lose anything by using men as instruments?

If I ask you to say some prayers for me, I am "indirectly" going to Christ through you... you are still bringing me to Christ in your act of prayer.

Agreed, but Jesus asked us to pray for one another so in this we are obeying the Word. We should pray for one another to strengthen the Spirit. Praying to anyone but our Father in Heaven however is considered worshipping idols is it not?

I'm not accusing you of heresy for I believe your intentions are to follow the Lord. But on that one note of Jesus specifying we should only pray to our Father in Heaven; is it not dangerous then to pray to anyone else?

In the bible it says that the dead know nothing. Therefore praying to someone who has died is not the context Jesus was refering to when he said to pray for one another, was it?

Your complaint may next be that you are not "dead" like those Saints in Heaven. But I would have to disagree (while they may be "dead" in the sense that they are not living on earth, they are very much alive in Heaven... Mark 12:27).

We probably agree on more than we disagree, LOL. What you have said is true, however Heaven and Earth are separate until the Son's return. We do not have access to Heaven and Heaven doesn't access to Earth, except through the Son. So in a sense they are separate until the day of the Lord's return.

Alive in Heaven is very different to being alive on Earth; so it's best to use the only means the Lord gave us permission to use - praying to our Father in Heaven.

Christ told John from the Cross to take Mary into his "[home]" John 19:26-27. I gloss the word "home", because the English translation is a poor one. The Greek the Gospel writer used (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) is "idios"... his "own", his "self". And I think that drastically changes the meaning of the passage.

Also, as mother of Christ (of whom we are members of His Body.. the Church), Mary is the mother of the Church...exemplified in Christ's gift from the Cross, and John's reaction-- he took her into his "own".

I must confess that I get a little confused with Greek translations of the English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, LOL, so it does take a little concentration on my part to get what you're saying.

Forgive me if this sounds like an idiotic statement, but how do you get from John took her as his own...his own self (if that's how I read it correctly) to Mary is the Mother of the Church?

Mary was in essence adopted by John by which mankind is also adopted by God. We all become heirs in the same family so to speak. So in this I guess I do agree with your translation of John accepting Mary as his mother. I don't necessarily see the justification however that Mary then becomes the Mother of the church.

I'm not quite certain how you make the leap.

I think you make a point, however I don't see how fearful humility would dissipate the wonder and awe (or amazement) of the power and grace of God. That fear and humbleness would only underscore and deepen the amazement of God.

Maybe it has to do with my mother's near death experience and what she felt when she was in the presence of what she could only describe as Jesus. All she saw was white light and a man - when she saw him she was suddenly engulfed by love. So much so that she didn't want to leave. It wasn't her time yet however, which the man told her and so she had to return.

Her memories of that moment have always struck me as absolute pure love. You don't have time for anything else...you don't think of anything else...you just absorb that powerful feeling and you know that you're home.

After all her suffering on Earth, why would Mary want to leave her place in paradise to do the work her Son has already vowed to do?

Just my ramblings and speculation though. I can't validate them as absolute truth, nor would I like to portray them as such.

I think we can agree to disagree where necessary and still remain open to a better understanding of "the other side of the coin".

Absolutely. If there is anything I have learned about my walk is that I've often been more wrong than right, LOL, and so I should always be prepared to listen. Listening doesn't hurt if your heart is already with the Lord. :D

 

[CatholicXian]

It certainly makes it easier to talk when we aren't questioning each other's faith, LOL.

Definitely.

I can see this logic as reasonable...but I still believe Jesus is the only source where prayer is answered. I think we only disagree on how we go about praying.

If you asked me to pray for you and I agreed, this is good for my faith and teaches me about thinking beyond my own needs. It is the living body of Christ doing as He asked us to do. He asked us to pray for one another.

He did not ask us to pray to anyone but him though. Would you agree on that? Jesus asked us only to pray to our Father in Heaven.

Right, but one of the differences here is going to be how we define the term "pray to". Catholics would distinguish a difference (a great difference) between "prayer to" Christ and "prayer to" Mary/the Saints in Heaven.

"Prayer to" the Saints in Heaven is not the same as "prayer to" Christ. The sense of the term "pray" in reference to those in Heaven is only in the sense of "asking" (something akin to the old English "I pray thee.."). It is only their intercession that we seek-- just as we seek the intercession of fellow Christians on earth. We pray and intercede for one another as the Body of Christ, the Church-- the "communion of Saints" as the Church calls it technically. Because, as members of Christ's Body (/the Church), through Christ we are in communion with all the other members.

(and also, if we could "only" pray to the Father in Heaven, then we wouldn't be able to pray to Jesus-- Jesus is the Son. Entirely God, but distinct from the person of the Father.. but I didn't think that was your point.)

I agree that Abraham and Moses were held in great esteem...so much so that Christ had to die over it later on when he tested their teachings with the true word of God.

Was there ever a statue of these great men kept in the temple however? Were people told to pray to their forefathers when they indirectly wanted God to answer their prayers? Those are real questions by the way, for I don't know the answers myself. I cannot recall anything like this happening but then I'm not an avid scholar of the OT yet either.

Again, we are defining prayer in the case of intercession, a bit differently. And it's not that we want "God to indirectly answer our prayers"-- but that we want more prayer, and we recognize another as a righteous person and the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful (cf. James 5:16). (And surely those who are in Heaven are very righteous! And so we hope that they will intercede for us as well)

As to statues... I think there was more attention to Angels in the OT (from my observation)... they had the Ark of the Covenant (with Angels/cherubim established on each side) (cf. Exodus 25:18) and the temple also had cherubim (cf. 1 Kings 6:23-29) and the passage describes them in some detail. Those are the only statue(ish) things I can recall off the top of my head...

But at the same time, I think it good to remember that prayer was pretty different in the OT as well. Without the mediatorship of Christ, they didn't have direct access to the Father.

Agreed for the most part, but then I must ask why send His Son to sacrifice if His grace didn't lose anything by using men as instruments?

Good questions.

Because the Covenants couldn't remain established-- they kept getting broken. Because we are fallen creatures, no amount of trying could keep us from not sinning (breaking the Covenant)... it inevitably happened everytime. God would make a Covenant, we would break it. Over and over, through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David... we just kept screwing it up. So God sends someone (His Son) who's not going to screw it up so that we can be united in a Covenant that we're not going to screw up (and can't because the Covenant through Christ is everlasting), and because Christ perfectly atoned for us, and by Christ we are made holy.

Agreed, but Jesus asked us to pray for one another so in this we are obeying the Word. We should pray for one another to strengthen the Spirit. Praying to anyone but our Father in Heaven however is considered worshipping idols is it not?

I'm not accusing you of heresy for I believe your intentions are to follow the Lord. But on that one note of Jesus specifying we should only pray to our Father in Heaven; is it not dangerous then to pray to anyone else?

In the bible it says that the dead know nothing. Therefore praying to someone who has died is not the context Jesus was refering to when he said to pray for one another, was it?

I hope that I cleared the "praying to" thing up above...

Regarding those being "dead"... because of Christ, I would say that they are alive in Christ because "God is a God of the living, not of the dead" (Mark 12:27). Also, Jesus is seen conversing with Moses and Elijah at one point in the Gospels (cf. Mark 9:4) so it would seem that the Saints are not "dead" in the sense that they are completely unaware. In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul talks about the Body of Christ and how "if one member suffers, all suffer, and if one rejoices, all rejoice" (1 Corinthians 12:26-27)--so I would say that because those in Heaven are not severed from the Body of Christ (/the Church), they must have at least some knowledge of earthly happenings through their communion with Christ Jesus of whom we are all members of His mystical Body/the Church.

All through Christ...

We probably agree on more than we disagree, LOL. What you have said is true, however Heaven and Earth are separate until the Son's return. We do not have access to Heaven and Heaven doesn't access to Earth, except through the Son. So in a sense they are separate until the day of the Lord's return.

Alive in Heaven is very different to being alive on Earth; so it's best to use the only means the Lord gave us permission to use - praying to our Father in Heaven.

lol, I do think we agree more than disagree. :wink:

I fully agree that Heaven and earth are distinct-- we are not united to those in Heaven by earthly/material means, but by our unique communion with Christ. We are connected only through Christ, as members of His Body, the Church. Again, all is through Christ. He is the Mediator (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5)

I must confess that I get a little confused with Greek translations of the English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, LOL, so it does take a little concentration on my part to get what you're saying.

Forgive me if this sounds like an idiotic statement, but how do you get from John took her as his own...his own self (if that's how I read it correctly) to Mary is the Mother of the Church?

Sorry I was confusing!

I wasn't trying necessarily to jump from John to the Church.. but I suppose there could be a sense in which John is exemplifying all "beloved disciples" in his role at the foot of the cross, but that could be a more debatable point, so I'll shy away from that. By claiming Mary is mother of the Church, I meant that she is by extention of her motherhood of Jesus. We, as the Church, are members of Christ's body-- and that body was born of Mary. So, insofar as Mary is the mother of Christ, she is the mother of the Church, His Body, as well.

I do think you understand my point about the Greek and John's taking Mary into his own self.

Mary was in essence adopted by John by which mankind is also adopted by God. We all become heirs in the same family so to speak. So in this I guess I do agree with your translation of John accepting Mary as his mother. I don't necessarily see the justification however that Mary then becomes the Mother of the church.

I'm not quite certain how you make the leap.

I hope I cleared this up above. I think I was trying to squish two points together before and it came out more confusing than clear. Sorry about that.

Maybe it has to do with my mother's near death experience and what she felt when she was in the presence of what she could only describe as Jesus. All she saw was white light and a man - when she saw him she was suddenly engulfed by love. So much so that she didn't want to leave. It wasn't her time yet however, which the man told her and so she had to return.

Her memories of that moment have always struck me as absolute pure love. You don't have time for anything else...you don't think of anything else...you just absorb that powerful feeling and you know that you're home.

After all her suffering on Earth, why would Mary want to leave her place in paradise to do the work her Son has already vowed to do?

Just my ramblings and speculation though. I can't validate them as absolute truth, nor would I like to portray them as such.

Wow, that sounds like an awesome experience for your mother.

I'm not sure what you mean by your question? Mary doesn't "leave her place in paradise"? Sorry, I'm confused (too much reading earlier today for class... my brain is a little fuzzy.. lol).

Absolutely. If there is anything I have learned about my walk is that I've often been more wrong than right, LOL, and so I should always be prepared to listen. Listening doesn't hurt if your heart is already with the Lord. :D

Awesome, I completely agree. I always learn new things and new perspectives when talking and discussing faith. It's great.

 

[Klee shay]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions CatholicXian. I was a little confused at first with the whole praying to Mary and feared it stood in the way of the Lord. If you believe it doesn't however, and points to the Lord then my confusion is removed.

I cannot agree with praying to anyone but the Lord - but that has been my walk. I have seen where the newborn Christian can be led astray by such distractions from the Lord. Although I must also take into consideration, all good things are meant for those who believe - Catholic, Prodestant, Revivalist, etc - whatever your method of religion, so long as you believe in Jesus, there is your rock and your means to growth and salvation.

May your walk be fruitful and may your suffering bring growth.

 

[gazzamor]

The question of whether Joseph and Mary took other siblings along with them when Jesus turned twelve and went to the temple for the first time is not relevant. Because the story of Jesus’ early childhood, is concerned with him only. The gospels are not concerned with Jesus’ brothers and sisters at that time, but Jesus Himself. Just because the Gospels don’t mention his brothers and sisters during his childhood, doesn’t mean that he had none at all.

The gospel writers were not concerned with every minute detail of Jesus’ life. If that was so, we would have a NT that would be ten fold.

John 21: 25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

His brothers and sisters come into the picture after Jesus was baptized.

Mathew 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." (also in Mark 3:31).

In these cases Jesus said that they who do the will of my Father are his true brothers, sisters and mother.
“I wonder why he said that?â€Â
I would say that it’s because John points out: that his own brothers did not believe in him. John 7:5
Another time was when Jesus preached in the local synagogue in his home town.

Matt 13: 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked.
55 "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
56 Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
57 And they took offence at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honour."

As you can see that the gospels record Jesus’ family, that he had four brothers (named) and sisters not named.

Catholic, with all due respects, to use 2 Samuel 6:23 to prove that Mary’s virginity is still in tact, shows that you are grabbing at straws.

The biblical record states that Mary remained a virgin till after Jesus was born.

The best way to get a good commentary on any text or passage in the bible is to read other translations.
The Living New Testament puts Matthew 1:25 this way: “But she remained a virgin until her Son was born; and Joseph named Him “Jesusâ€Â.
Nothing could be clearer. It’s there in black and white.

The Message puts it this way: Then Joseph woke up. He did exactly what God’s angel commanded in the dream: He married Mary. But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

Your interpretation of the Greek word “Heosâ€Â(till/until} is wrong.

To illustrate: I come down sick with the Flu. I ring my boss and say to him, “I am sick with the flu, and I wont be back to work “until†(Heos)_ I recover.â€Â

To apply your interpretation of Matt. 1:25 and 2 Samuel 6:23 to that situation, I would be eternally sick with the flu.

Have a good day,

And God Bless

Gazzamor

 

[Heidi]

The problem is, gazzamor, they don't want to believe it because the pope doesn't and they don't think the pope can be wrong. If the pope had never declared Mary a vrigin, then everyone would have believed the bible. Matthew 1:25 would have never been in dispute.

But again, this is what happejns when people call anyone Our Holy Father. The pope is then looked at as infallible instead of a leader in the church. Jesus always knows what he's talking about.

 

[CatholicXian]

Gazza..

It seems you missed one of my posts where I pointed out that there is another Greek word also translated as "until" that implies time. Thus, you would not be eternally sick with the flu.

Do you count how many times you forgive someone?

God bless.

 

[Heidi]

Gazza..

It seems you missed one of my posts where I pointed out that there is another Greek word also translated as "until" that implies time. Thus, you would not be eternally sick with the flu.

Do you count how many times you forgive someone?

God bless.

Our point exactly. That means Joseph and Mary did not eternally remain celibate. That's why the word "until" was used because it shows when Joseph and Mary had sexual relations.

And you would not quibble with the bible or do what Bill Clinton did when trying to redefine "is" when caught in a lie if the pope had not declared mary a virgin all her life. Sorry, but no matter how you try to butcher Matthew 1:25, you can never make it say; "And Joseph and Mary never had sex for the rest of their lives." Sorry. :wink: