Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth...

[gingercat]

I have been charged with bearing bad fruit BY YOU. That's a personal attack. Sorry, doesn't fly.

Yes, I am making genralization of Catholics, Thats why I dont attend your denomination. Why is that personal attack?

I am just expressing my observation. I know you dont like it because it is not in favor of your denomination. That's just too bad. Now you are saying I can not make any generalization, since when it became illegal or unbiblical to do it?

I urge you to read my thread "satan's best tactics".

 

[Heidi]

You don't know of my fruits.

I have been reading plenty of Catholics rotten fruts from history and media. I dont make personal attack on the boards.

But you just told me above that I wasn't a follower of Christ. That's about as personal as any attack can get.



Nonetheless, this thread is WAY off track and only keeps getting moreso. Does anyone have any comments (other than Heidi, as we only seem to go in ciricles) about the fact that the word "until" (Greek, "heos") does not always mean "and then it happened" as Heidi claims it does.

Also, why does Mary express surprise (cf. Luke 1:34) at conceiving a child if she was preparing to be married (the Angel says to Mary that she WILL conceive (future tense)? Isn't it normal for people to become pregnant after marriage? The Angel never says that Mary is going to become pregnant outside of wedlock before the Scriptures state her surprise. So why the surprise at the announcement of conception?

No follower of Christ would disagree with Christ for any man. But you disagree with Jesus all over the place. Jesus himself is the Word as John 1:1-3 tells us. So your words speak for themselves. And since you don't have the capacity to understand Matthew 1:25 when the words are basic and simple, then you simply don't have the capacity to understand deeper scripture. So it's a waste of time even conversing with you and I'm therefore placing you on my ignore list.

 

[Johny]

Why is there so much hate here? Are we not all Christians, believing in Jesus Christ? Arguing over the Catholic church and it's beleives do nothing but create anger between forums members.

I think some people have to take a step back and really think about what is happening. Instead of looking for opportunities to attack others, maybe just have a civilized debates. If you disagree with the Catholic Church, that's fine but there's no reason for it to get personal.

Didn't Jesus say "love one another". Frankly, some people don't follow this. It's time we realise that we all have different opinions and that we'll never agree on everything.

The most important thing is that we beleive in God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, this is what really matters.

Our salvation depends on our beleif in Christ, not wether Mary was sinless, or that Catholics are wrong or Protestants are wrong.

That being said, debates are great, but we mustn't igonore the big picture.

 

[gingercat]

Why is there so much hate here?

I dont see it as hate. I guess if you dont like your opposers you can always call them hateful. :roll:

 

[Heidi]

How can a person who doesn't understand the words; "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son" have a civilized debate about anything? They first have to understand basic word definitions which I can't help them with. People who argue with that simple phrase simply like to argue, period. I therefore will not respond to people who incessantly argue with scripture. If they don't understand it, then first look up the words in the dictionary. And if they still can't understand it, then they should talk to God about it, not people.

 

[CatholicXian]

You don't know of my fruits.

I have been reading plenty of Catholics rotten fruts from history and media. I dont make personal attack on the boards.

But you just told me above that I wasn't a follower of Christ. That's about as personal as any attack can get.



Nonetheless, this thread is WAY off track and only keeps getting moreso. Does anyone have any comments (other than Heidi, as we only seem to go in ciricles) about the fact that the word "until" (Greek, "heos") does not always mean "and then it happened" as Heidi claims it does.

Also, why does Mary express surprise (cf. Luke 1:34) at conceiving a child if she was preparing to be married (the Angel says to Mary that she WILL conceive (future tense)? Isn't it normal for people to become pregnant after marriage? The Angel never says that Mary is going to become pregnant outside of wedlock before the Scriptures state her surprise. So why the surprise at the announcement of conception?

No follower of Christ would disagree with Christ for any man. But you disagree with Jesus all over the place. Jesus himself is the Word as John 1:1-3 tells us. So your words speak for themselves. And since you don't have the capacity to understand Matthew 1:25 when the words are basic and simple, then you simply don't have the capacity to understand deeper scripture. So it's a waste of time even conversing with you and I'm therefore placing you on my ignore list.

I do not disagree with Christ, as I've demonstrated. It is your mere opinion that I do.

Rather than respond to objections I've raised, you merely repeat yourself, and add new pronouncements of judgment against Catholics. So fine, you disagree with the Greek construction and meaning of Matthew 1:25. But just because I disagree and find deeper meaning in the original language of the Sacred Scriptures doesn't mean I don't have the capacity to understand them (for indeed, the Holy Spirit has graced me many times with insight into the Holy Scriptures in coming to understand many difficult passages).
Don't attack my education, Heidi. If I am in error, teach, not complain. Complaints never brought a soul to Christ, but I'm sure sound teaching with the grace of the Holy Spirit brought many.

 

[CatholicXian]

How can a person who doesn't understand the words; "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son" have a civilized debate about anything? They first have to understand basic word definitions which I can't help them with. People who argue with that simple phrase simply like to argue, period. I therefore will not respond to people who incessantly argue with scripture. If they don't understand it, then first look up the words in the dictionary. And if they still can't understand it, then they should talk to God about it, not people.

Read the Greek.

Greek and English are not equivalent languages.

 

[gingercat]

But you just told me above that I wasn't a follower of Christ. That's about as personal as any attack can get.[/quote]


I have been making generalizations. You guys have to make up your minds. I have been making generalization in all of my threads and comments and never personal attacks! And now you are saying I am making personal attack. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I said I don't believe Catholics are Jesus' followers. perios. It is not personal attack.

 

[Heidi]

Actually the Greek word is the word for "to know" which is the usual word used in the bible for intimate sexual relations between man and wife. So the Greek actually is clearer than the NIV that Mary and Joseph and sex after Jesus was born. So the pit you are digging for yourself is geting deeper and deeper all the time. I'm clicking ignore now.

 

[Johny]

Why is there so much hate here?

I dont see it as hate. I guess if you dont like your opposers you can always call them hateful. :roll:

All you've been doing latley is attacking other Christians. Why? Talking about Satan's tactics, shouldn't you worry about that? It seems to me he would like Christians to argue with each other, to divide within themselves. Until you realise that you or anyone else doesn't have all the answers, you aren't helping your cause.

It's pretty clear you have a grudge against Catholics. At first, I thought nothing of it but now your going a little too far. You say you want to expose the evil deeds of darkness, start with yourself and stop with your judging. Jesus said it clearly when he said "Judge not lest ye be judged." Why are you judging? You think that you're right, great for you and all the more power to you. I haven't judged anyone, and have never denied that you could be right. I don't shove my beleifs down the throats of others, but you choose too.

Don't forget that God loves us all, no matter what.

 

[Gary]

...The most important thing is that we beleive in God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, this is what really matters.

Our salvation depends on our beleif in Christ, not wether Mary was sinless, or that Catholics are wrong or Protestants are wrong.

That may sound OK... but it is NOT what the Roman Catholic "church" teaches.

The Roman Catholic Church officially teaches that the church is necessary for salvation. "Above all else, it must be firmly believed that 'the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation...it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation. The Church is the universal sacrament of salvation... she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being" (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Dominus Iesus, September 2000).

This is opposed to what the Bible teaches. In the Bible, we are told to look to the Lord "Look unto ME, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:22). Jesus Christ said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Can you see the difference?

:-?

 

[CatholicXian]

But you just told me above that I wasn't a follower of Christ. That's about as personal as any attack can get.

I have been making generalizations. You guys have to make up your minds. I have been making generalization in all of my threads and comments and never personal attacks! And now you are saying I am making personal attack. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I said I don't believe Catholics are Jesus' followers. perios. It is not personal attack.

I am Catholic.

Thus, when you say you believe that "Catholics don't follow Jesus"... I fall under that category. It's just an indirect way of saying what you think without using my name.

And, previously in this thread you said to me,

According to Protestant's Bible, you are not going to be with Jesus.

I'm not sure there's another way to take that. It's a personal attack, plain and simple.


No harm done though, as Christ is my Judge and I could care less what the world condemns me for.




PS-I don't get this whole, "I'm making generalizations" thing. What's the point?

 

[CatholicXian]

Actually the Greek word is the word for "to know" which is the usual word used in the bible for intimate sexual relations between man and wife.

No it's not, the Greek "ginosko" used in Matthew 1:25 denotes no sexual connotation.

The same word used for "to know" in Matthew 1:25 is the same word Jesus uses in Matthew 7:23 "I never knew you: depart from me". So unless you're going to twist Scripture to say that someone has to have a sexual relationship with Christ to get to Heaven, you are WAY off in reading the Greek.

I hope you clear that up before you stick me on ignore. ;-)

 

[gingercat]

S-I don't get this whole, "I'm making generalizations" thing. What's the point?

I have been Christian only for 7 years. I had to make decision which denomination my family attend and I have learned a lot. I have responsibility to protect my Master's teachings. I am just expressing my observation. This is my call for the Lord. I hope you understand and respect my duty for Him. He gives every one all kinds of duties.

 

[CatholicXian]

S-I don't get this whole, "I'm making generalizations" thing. What's the point?

I have been Christian only for 7 years. I had to make decision which denomination my family attend and I have learned a lot. I have responsibility to protect my Master's teachings. I am just expressing my observation. This is my call for the Lord. I hope you understand and respect my duty for Him. He gives every one all kinds of duties.

But not the duty to pass judgment on another.

 

[gingercat]

ll you've been doing latley is attacking other Christians.


Don't forget that God loves us all, no matter what.

They are just your opinion and I disagree. Can you respect that?

We have different understanding of Love of Jesus. Just because you dont agree with me does not make me hateful or unloving or unbiblical. To me you are the one who are wrong. See how it works?

Let's just take advantege of free country and express our convictions. You express yours and I express mine. Is that ok with you?

 

[Lewis]

Wow 27% said that Mary was without sin. People have really been fooled.

 

[gingercat]

But not the duty to pass judgment on another.[/quote]

I disagree with you. I dont believe what I am doing is unbiblical. Let's take that to the Lord. I will not take you word or judgment.

I am just making things very simple and clearer. You dont like what I am showing you clearly. :wink:

 

[Johny]

ll you've been doing latley is attacking other Christians.


Don't forget that God loves us all, no matter what.

They are just your opinion and I disagree. Can you respect that?

We have different understanding of Love of Jesus. Just because you dont agree with me does not make me hateful or unloving or unbiblical. To me you are the one who are wrong. See how it works?

Let's just take advantege of free country and express our convictions. You express yours and I express mine. Is that ok with you?

I have to admit I have a hard time understanding what you are saying. You may not do it on purpose, but the way you speak (type) seems like you're attacking.

If you read what I said you'd understand that I agree that everyone doesn't beleive the same thing, doesn't mean it's your job to attack others.

 

[CatholicXian]

But not the duty to pass judgment on another.

I disagree with you. I dont believe what I am doing is unbiblical. Let's take that to the Lord. I will not take you word or judgment.

I am just making things very simple and clearer. You dont like what I am showing you clearly. :wink:

"Judge not, that ye be judged..." (Matthew 7:1-2)

Your judgment is pointless because it is nothing. Christ is Judge.

St. Paul had some wise words in reminding us not to focus on judgment, but rather in keeping our own selves in accord with Christ that we might not cause a brother in Christ to stumble (Romans 14:13).

You can continue to pass judgment if that's what you so desire, but it adds nothing to the discussions of the forum, except to incite anger and malice (look at the direction this thread has taken... overflowing into the other threads of this board).