G
Gary
Guest
Again you mislead. The Catholic Bible (the nab) which I have in front of me translates it as "favored one."
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Gary
Guest
Exposing the Roman Catholic deception
For hundreds of years, no church father said that Mary was sinless from conception onward. During that same time, many church fathers and Roman bishops said that she was a sinner. Roman Catholics try to counter such widespread evidence by arguing that at least some church fathers did believe in the sinlessness of Mary.
Here is a partial list of those who considered that Mary was NOT sinless her entire life:
... they all voted NO to the question "Was Mary sinless?"
.
For hundreds of years, no church father said that Mary was sinless from conception onward. During that same time, many church fathers and Roman bishops said that she was a sinner. Roman Catholics try to counter such widespread evidence by arguing that at least some church fathers did believe in the sinlessness of Mary.
Here is a partial list of those who considered that Mary was NOT sinless her entire life:
- Ambrose
Augustine (After quoting Ambrose, Augustine comments that Ambrose's view is the view held by the universal church of his day, a view supported by "the catholic faith")
Basil
Clement of Alexandria
Cyril of Alexandria
Cyril of Jerusalem
Ephraim
Gregory Nazianzen
Hilary of Poitiers
Jerome
John Chrysostom
Justin Martyr
Leo I
Origen
Tertullian
Theodoret
... they all voted NO to the question "Was Mary sinless?"
.
S
Solo
Guest
gingercat said:
Great!! You keep reading the Bible and look towards Jesus as often as you can, and we will agree more and more each day! :D
T
thessalonian
Guest
Gary said:Again you mislead. The Catholic Bible (the nab) which I have in front of me translates it as "favored one."
You don't get it do you. I avoid calling you stupid but some of your nonsense is beyond intelligent. An English tranlation does not capture all of the meaning of the greek. It is not for instance an error per sey to say the word paradosis in 2 Thes 2:15 is a teaching as MANY protestant Bibles render it. A tradition is a teaching. But paradosis is ALWAYS properly rended tradition which is a teaching handed down. Didache is the word properly rendered teaching. Likewise grace is in one definition God's favor on us. One who is highly favored is so because of grace. Mary certainly was highly favored with grace. Hopefull we would agree on this one point. Full of grace would be a maximum state of highly favored. This is very understandable but you will put your head in the sand once more. Of course it is the Catholic that is always wrong. Sad.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Gary said:Again you mislead. The Catholic Bible (the nab) which I have in front of me translates it as "favored one."
You don't get it do you. I avoid calling you stupid but some of your nonsense is beyond intelligent. An English tranlation does not capture all of the meaning of the greek. It is not for instance an error per sey to say the word paradosis in 2 Thes 2:15 is a teaching as MANY protestant Bibles render it. A tradition is a teaching. But paradosis is ALWAYS properly rended tradition which is a teaching handed down. Didache is the word properly rendered teaching. Likewise grace is in one definition God's favor on us. One who is highly favored is so because of grace. Mary certainly was highly favored with grace. Hopefull we would agree on this one point. Full of grace would be a maximum state of highly favored. This is very understandable but you will put your head in the sand once more. Of course it is the Catholic that is always wrong. Sad.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Gary said:Again you mislead. The Catholic Bible (the nab) which I have in front of me translates it as "favored one."
You don't get it do you. I avoid calling you stupid but some of your nonsense is beyond intelligent. An English tranlation does not capture all of the meaning of the greek. It is not for instance an error per sey to say the word paradosis in 2 Thes 2:15 is a teaching as MANY protestant Bibles render it. A tradition is a teaching. But paradosis is ALWAYS properly rended tradition which is a teaching handed down. Didache is the word properly rendered teaching. Likewise grace is in one definition God's favor on us. One who is highly favored is so because of grace. Mary certainly was highly favored with grace. Hopefull we would agree on this one point. Full of grace would be a maximum state of highly favored. This is very understandable but you will put your head in the sand once more. Of course it is the Catholic that is always wrong. Sad.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Heidi said:
Heidi, is that you? Wonder how Gary feels about your belief that it's okay not to go to Church for 40 years or however long it has been? Got your own personal theology I hear. Here is what the Bible says about that.
Mark.13
[21] And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
G
Gary
Guest
Teaching the Roman Catholic some English
That sentence/insult does not make any sense. Care to rephrase it?
.
That sentence/insult does not make any sense. Care to rephrase it?
.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Re: Exposing the Roman Catholic deception
I find it hillarious that your runnig to the fathers on this one. I could but I won't debate the issue. I'll just keep posting the scripture on the Ark of the Covenant parrellel for people to answer in their own minds.
Gary said:
I find it hillarious that your runnig to the fathers on this one. I could but I won't debate the issue. I'll just keep posting the scripture on the Ark of the Covenant parrellel for people to answer in their own minds.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Immculate Conception? Well you need to read up on the ark of the covenant for this one. This is something you won't even find mentioned in your protestant theology books. It's a lost tradition for you. Luke parrellels Mary with the Ark of the covenant:
Both events took place in the hill country of Judah:
Luke 1
39. Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,
2 Sam 6
2. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.
Similarity of David and Elizabeth's words in greeting Mary and speaking of the Ark.
luke 1
43. "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
2 Sam 6
9. So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the LORD come to me?"
John leaps before Mary who contains the Lord in her womb.
Luke 1
44. "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
David leaps before the ark in which the Lord resides.
2 Sam 6
16. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
Mary stays with elizabeth for 3 mo.
56. And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.
The Ark stays with obemedon for 3 mo.
11. Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.
Too many coincidences here for one to not draw a parrellel.
Now the Ark was made to God's specifications and so was Mary. That implies sinless. The Ark was so pure it could not be touched lest you be struck down dead. All of this pionts to Mary's purity
_________________
Both events took place in the hill country of Judah:
Luke 1
39. Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,
2 Sam 6
2. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.
Similarity of David and Elizabeth's words in greeting Mary and speaking of the Ark.
luke 1
43. "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
2 Sam 6
9. So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the LORD come to me?"
John leaps before Mary who contains the Lord in her womb.
Luke 1
44. "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
David leaps before the ark in which the Lord resides.
2 Sam 6
16. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
Mary stays with elizabeth for 3 mo.
56. And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.
The Ark stays with obemedon for 3 mo.
11. Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.
Too many coincidences here for one to not draw a parrellel.
Now the Ark was made to God's specifications and so was Mary. That implies sinless. The Ark was so pure it could not be touched lest you be struck down dead. All of this pionts to Mary's purity
_________________
G
Gary
Guest
The Roman Catholic said:
Not really. YOU claimed that Protestants ignore the history. Here the history and the fathers show the exact opposite to current Roman Catholic dogma!
That is what is hilarious!
G
Gary
Guest
Thesssalonian said:
Is that why you believe that Joseph never "touched" Mary?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The analogy between the ark and Mary is farfetched. Nowhere is any such comparison stated or implied in Scripture. Nor is Mary’s immaculate conception foreshadowed in the creation of the universe in an immaculate state, nor in Eve, the mother of our race.
Creating analogies like these prove nothing, except that one has run out of any real biblical support for the dogma. One could prove almost anything by the same kind of argument. The argument is based on another baseless belief that Mary’s body was incorruptible after her death and before her alleged assumption. The Bible says this was true of Christ (Acts 2:30-31), but it nowhere affirms this of Mary. Indeed, the Bible equates death with the corruption of all human beings except Christ (1 Cor. 15:42, 53).
:o :o
T
thessalonian
Guest
Gary said:
You twist and distort rather than facing things head on. Nip at the heals of the issue all you want Gary.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Gary said:The Roman Catholic said:
Not really. YOU claimed that Protestants ignore the history. Here the history and the fathers show the exact opposite to current Roman Catholic dogma!
That is what is hilarious!
Protestants have no history. Shall we get in to perpetual virginity. How about the Lord's Supper. or Peter in Rome? You of course will twist, distort, and nip at the heals on these issues as well. As I said, I could argue the fathers with you and explain Catholic theology on developement of doctrine but you have proven with the geisler comments and others that you are incapable of grasping any of it. Sad, very sad.
G
gingercat
Guest
Solo said:
solo, I was wondering if you can see anyone's positive side for a change instead of so severly uptight about your opposers. :angel:
T
TruthMiner
Guest
Thessalonian said:
I don't know about your tradition but it does not seem to make sense that God's favor and God's grace are mutually exclusive items. I would think that His favor must be a result of His grace. So your point does seem to make sense to me.
Still learning.
G
Gary
Guest
Twisting and distorting.... the Catholic way
Immaculate Conception, Sinlessness, Perpetual Virginity, Bodily Assumption.... and the whole house of cards
Twisting and distorting from man-made dogma heaped onto man-made dogma
The traditional argument for the bodily assumption of Mary is weak. Roman Catholic authorities admit that “The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitus-narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries.†Further, they acknowledge that “these are apocryphal.â€Â
In fact, the bodily assumption of Mary was not held by most of the early church fathers. Roman Catholic theologians admit that belief in this dogma did not appear until nearly the seventh century.
Roman Catholic theologian Karl Rahner acknowledged that “at best it can only be considered as evidence of theological speculation about Mary, which has been given the form of an ostensible historical account.†He adds, “there is nothing of any historical value in such apocryphal works.â€Â
Alice in Wonderland
As Miller and Samples aptly note, “To the Protestant, who views Scripture as the only secure anchor for theology, Roman Catholic Mariology having cut loose from this anchor is hopelessly adrift upon a sea of splendid but dubious ‘Roman logic.’ †Citing Victor Buksbazen, “the non-Catholic student of Mariology who tries to follow its shaky premises and strained conclusions finds himself in a kind of theological Alice in Wonderland in which things, in spite of their seeming logic, become ‘curriouser and curriouser.’ â€Â
:bday: :x-mas: :bday: (The guy in the middle is one of the anti-popes. You know he is one of the anti-popes because he has a floppy hat!)
Immaculate Conception, Sinlessness, Perpetual Virginity, Bodily Assumption.... and the whole house of cards
Twisting and distorting from man-made dogma heaped onto man-made dogma
The traditional argument for the bodily assumption of Mary is weak. Roman Catholic authorities admit that “The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitus-narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries.†Further, they acknowledge that “these are apocryphal.â€Â
In fact, the bodily assumption of Mary was not held by most of the early church fathers. Roman Catholic theologians admit that belief in this dogma did not appear until nearly the seventh century.
Roman Catholic theologian Karl Rahner acknowledged that “at best it can only be considered as evidence of theological speculation about Mary, which has been given the form of an ostensible historical account.†He adds, “there is nothing of any historical value in such apocryphal works.â€Â
Alice in Wonderland
As Miller and Samples aptly note, “To the Protestant, who views Scripture as the only secure anchor for theology, Roman Catholic Mariology having cut loose from this anchor is hopelessly adrift upon a sea of splendid but dubious ‘Roman logic.’ †Citing Victor Buksbazen, “the non-Catholic student of Mariology who tries to follow its shaky premises and strained conclusions finds himself in a kind of theological Alice in Wonderland in which things, in spite of their seeming logic, become ‘curriouser and curriouser.’ â€Â
:bday: :x-mas: :bday: (The guy in the middle is one of the anti-popes. You know he is one of the anti-popes because he has a floppy hat!)
T
thessalonian
Guest
TruthMiner said:
Thank you. There is an honest person in the house. :o
With regard to karchitnome, in other places such as John 1 and Acts 8 it is rendered in some protestant bibles "full of grace". In the first having to do with Jesus and in the second having to do with stephen.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Gary seems to be about dump trucking what others wrote in this thread. He is not every open to honest debate or intellectual honesty. That's just not his style. :-?