Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth...

[HisFriend]

And where did this sinless business suddenly come up? What is wrong with you people? Are you all nuts?

I thought you were only playing a role of being an idiot, but I am becoming concerned. This thread's Header is, "Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth..."

Perhaps you should take a break and go play.

You are one sad excuse for a Christian Solo.

 

[Solo]

And where did this sinless business suddenly come up? What is wrong with you people? Are you all nuts?

I thought you were only playing a role of being an idiot, but I am becoming concerned. This thread's Header is, "Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth..."

Perhaps you should take a break and go play.

You are one sad excuse for a Christian Solo.

Go pray and you might get into the right place with God.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Please provide scripture that says that Mary was sinless and the mother of God. if you cannot, then again, it is a made-up gospel. So instead of attacking others, put your money where your mouth is and back up your words with scripture. But since you cannot, because it's not in the bible, then your words are empty and meaningless.

The English translation, "Hail, Full of Grace," or "Hail, Favored One," is based on the Greek of Luke 1:28, Χαιρε κεχαριτωμενη Chaire kecharitomene. The latter word has the verb "to grace" as its root, and the Greek syntax indicates that the action of the verb was passive, fully completed in the past, with results continuing into the future. Put another way, it means that the subject (Mary) was graced fully and completely at some time in the past, and continued in that fully graced state

I thought you were only playing a role of being an idiot, but I am becoming concerned. This thread's Header is, "Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth..."

Perhaps you should take a break and go play

.....Let's maintain charity :fadein:

God love you

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Sheen has a point. We should be the ones offended, and we remain charitable (as far as I have seen)... Charity is a must. Meaningless insults are counterproductive. Lets talk Scripture, lets talk Tradition. Lets talk Mary. But lets not insult each other needlessly.

And good reply FSW. I was looking for the Greek translation for that...

 

[gazzamor]

Haven't you ever read what Paul said in Romans 3:23? for all have sinned (and that includes Mary) and fall short of the glory of God,

The only person who ever lived a sinless life on this earth is Jesus Christ.
And he came from above.
No other human being can ever claim to be sinless.

The Catholic Church has deified Mary to be the mediatrix between God and man. Which is in direct opposition to what the Bible says.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

If you don't believe what I say, I would suggest that you read their book: "The Thunder of Justice" authored by Ted and Maureen Flynn

 

[Heidi]

[quote="Solo":3a77d]
If you want to regard Mary as your mother, go right ahead. That is the most ridiculous thing that I have heard on this forum. I suppose you pray, "Our Mother who art in heaven........"

Mary is not even close to being anyone's mother except her own children, all of them. You my friend are not one of her children. You are deceived, and probably do not know who the Father is.

Mary is in her grave until Jesus returns when she will be resurrected with the other believers.

You don't focus too well do you Solo?

It doesn't matter if Mary is in her grave or working down at Wal-Mart.

Perhaps you will get a clue one day that God is your Father because you are united to his Son. And when you get that enlightenment, perhaps it just might dawn on you that Jesus had a mother too.

Solo, I feel sorry for you. Convincing yourself that everyone who does not think like you is deceived will never make it the truth no matter how badly you want it to be. Truth exists quite apart from what you want it to be. I pray that someday you will realize this and then perhaps you will be able to seek for truth like Jesus taught instead of adopting something that suits your itching ears.

Every response of yours smacks of the very same thing. You do not address the issue at hand and try to demonstrate why it should not be accepted. No you resort to these self reaffirmation mantras of yours just like the JW's do.

Mary has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation.

You are absolutely hopeless and unteachable. Nobody here is talking about your salvation or whether Mary has anything to do with it.

It doesn't matter that she was Jesus mother, other than she was a swell gal. Your statement that Mary should be looked at as our mother is RIDICULOUS.

Oh really? You don't know much about history do you? Or do you have your own imaginary version of history that suits your liking too?

[quote:3a77d]

And to say that she is God's MOTHER is a laugh as well.

This only expounds further on your ignorance Solo.
Please explain to me that the child she mothered was not God okay?


[quote:3a77d]

God doesn't have a mother.

And you betray your own contriving again. What happened Solo? Forgot that you insist Jesus is God? Did he have a mother?

He has been here way before Mary was in existance.

Oh, so you ascribe to the surrogate mother heresy do you?

Mary was the man Jesus' mother who is God incarnate.

Oh so there were two people were there? Jesus the man and God the Son - two persons. Is that right Solo?

Or have you not realized the word "mother" is a relational term that has at least one other PERSON in view?

Quite a difference of understanding. Your feeble understanding of truth needs help so while you are praying for me in the pharisitical way that you thank God you are not like me, you should pray to God for assistance in your unbelief and to forgive you for being such a proudful sinner. That way the beam can be removed from your eye before you attack those that have a speck.

Pitiful.[/quote:3a77d]

Please provide scripture that says that Mary was sinless and the mother of God. if you cannot, then again, it is a made-up gospel. So instead of attacking others, put your money where your mouth is and back up your words with scripture. But since you cannot, because it's not in the bible, then your words are empty and meaningless.[/quote:3a77d]

Why? We are not talking about Mary being the Mother of God? We are talking about John 19:26-27.

You have to be quite daft to claim Jesus is God and then claim Mary is not the Mother of God and that is the point.

And where did this sinless business suddenly come up? What is wrong with you people? Are you all nuts?[/quote:3a77d]

I claim Jesus is the Son of God as he and our Father in heaven also claim. God Himself was never born of a woman. He is and always was. And that's why Jesus himself says, "For the Father is greater than I." Do you think Jesus is lying again? :o

Jesus does not ask us to pray;" Jesus who art in heaven..." He asks us to pray; :Our Father who are in heaven..." in Jesus's name.
Jesus is the way to God as he claims. Jesus was the manifestation of God in the flesh which made him fully human and fully God. God himself was never fully human. So it would be wise for you to believe jesus when he tells us who he is.

It's too bad that so many people don't believe the bible. God said of Jesus; "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased." It would be wise for you to believe him.

 

[ttg]

Solo says "Mary is in her grave until Jesus returns when she will be resurrected with the other believers."

Just where is this grave? If Mary was not assumed into Heaven surely she has a grave, a tomb, a monument or relics.

 

[Heidi]

Solo says "Mary is in her grave until Jesus returns when she will be resurrected with the other believers."

Just where is this grave? If Mary was not assumed into Heaven surely she has a grave, a tomb, a monument or relics.

The bible doesn't say where her grave is, nor does it say what Jesus how Jesus spent his youth. So let's make up our own gospel! How about, Jesus was married at 16 because after all, that was the custom in those days, so let's say he was married and pass it along as the truth. Never mind, that there are no facts to support this, only vicious rumors, we know better than God what the truth is!

After all, the pope is God because he is our Holy Father, so he can say anything he wants, contradict the bible all he wants and play God. The bible according to our Holy Father instead of to according to God. Pretty soon, we can just throw the bible away and listen to God almight in the vatican. We're not too far away from that right now because the vatican has come and said the bible isn't the whole truth.

But this is how the anti-Christ is supposed to deceive many people. He will sit in the "holy of holies and declare himself to be God." So the catholics will be the first ones to believe the anti-Christ. But the true followers of Jesus can never be deceived because we raise no human being to the level of our Holy Father.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Haven't you ever read what Paul said in Romans 3:23? for all have sinned (and that includes Mary) and fall short of the glory of God,

Jesus was a man. If all have sinned, then so has Jesus. Cant deny his humanity. I somehow dont think that verse is saying exactly what you mean it to say.

Heidi, this topic isnt the place to address your heresy about Jesus. But just for the record, it is a heresy.

But this is how the anti-Christ is supposed to deceive many people. He will sit in the "holy of holies and declare himself to be God." So the catholics will be the first ones to believe the anti-Christ. But the true followers of Jesus can never be deceived because we raise no human being to the level of our Holy Father.

Thank you for your "charitable" and "informed" attacks on us. We do not raise Mary to the level of God. Read "True Devotion to Mary" by St. Louis DeMontfort and you will see she is afforded veneration (hyperdulia) but not adoration. This Saint who loved Mary even says that she is nothing compared to God.

We're not too far away from that right now because the vatican has come and said the bible isn't the whole truth.

The Vatican never said the Bible is the whole truth. The Bible doesnt say the Bible is the whole truth. Its adequate for salvation, but just that: adequate. You forget Apostolic Tradition (but this is simply a non sequitor and should not be carried further than this.) Maybe a debate on Sola Scriptura is coming up... (not in this thread, but I see one coming)

Now to actually say something pertaining to the topic!

Lets talk culture and the Assumption of Mary. I think it pertains to her Immaculate Conception, so its fair game.

The culture of the early Church was all about the relics of saints and martyrs. They would cut up the bones of them and send them to various churches as objects of grace. Now, im not talking the fourth and fifth centuries. Im talking the time of Christ. If Mary had died and been buried, she would have been dug up, divided, and sent to various churches. However, there are NO churches that claim the relics of Mary. There never have been. There probably never will be. Isnt it odd that the Mother of Jesus Christ, a person who people would have revered as extremely holy and obviously a Saint, has no parts of her body that show up anywhere? You cannot deny the culture of the early Church. This happened all the time. But no relics of Mary. I guess they couldnt find her body. And its doubtful that something happened to her so that she was misplaced. For someone that is that high profile... you didnt just misplace a body. Thats a heck of a case for the Assumption.

And has anyone responed intelligently to Fulton Sheens Warrior? (By intelligently, I mean with anything other than personal attacks on us or on Catholics in general)[/i]

 

[Heidi]

Haven't you ever read what Paul said in Romans 3:23? for all have sinned (and that includes Mary) and fall short of the glory of God,

Jesus was a man. If all have sinned, then so has Jesus. Cant deny his humanity. I somehow dont think that verse is saying exactly what you mean it to say.

Heidi, this topic isnt the place to address your heresy about Jesus. But just for the record, it is a heresy.

[quote:3bc51]But this is how the anti-Christ is supposed to deceive many people. He will sit in the "holy of holies and declare himself to be God." So the catholics will be the first ones to believe the anti-Christ. But the true followers of Jesus can never be deceived because we raise no human being to the level of our Holy Father.

Thank you for your "charitable" and "informed" attacks on us. We do not raise Mary to the level of God. Read "True Devotion to Mary" by St. Louis DeMontfort and you will see she is afforded veneration (hyperdulia) but not adoration. This Saint who loved Mary even says that she is nothing compared to God.

We're not too far away from that right now because the vatican has come and said the bible isn't the whole truth.

The Vatican never said the Bible is the whole truth. The Bible doesnt say the Bible is the whole truth. Its adequate for salvation, but just that: adequate. You forget Apostolic Tradition (but this is simply a non sequitor and should not be carried further than this.) Maybe a debate on Sola Scriptura is coming up... (not in this thread, but I see one coming)

Now to actually say something pertaining to the topic!

Lets talk culture and the Assumption of Mary. I think it pertains to her Immaculate Conception, so its fair game.

The culture of the early Church was all about the relics of saints and martyrs. They would cut up the bones of them and send them to various churches as objects of grace. Now, im not talking the fourth and fifth centuries. Im talking the time of Christ. If Mary had died and been buried, she would have been dug up, divided, and sent to various churches. However, there are NO churches that claim the relics of Mary. There never have been. There probably never will be. Isnt it odd that the Mother of Jesus Christ, a person who people would have revered as extremely holy and obviously a Saint, has no parts of her body that show up anywhere? You cannot deny the culture of the early Church. This happened all the time. But no relics of Mary. I guess they couldnt find her body. And its doubtful that something happened to her so that she was misplaced. For someone that is that high profile... you didnt just misplace a body. Thats a heck of a case for the Assumption.

And has anyone responed intelligently to Fulton Sheens Warrior? (By intelligently, I mean with anything other than personal attacks on us or on Catholics in general)[/i][/quote:3bc51]

Again, please provide sripture that say Mary was sinlesss If you can't provide any, then it is a made-up gospel, period.

So Jesus was a sinner and Mary was sinless. It's now finally obvious what the catholic church believes. Which one is greater? Jesus tells us; "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nused you," to which Jesus replied; "Blessed [rb]ather[/b] are those who do the will of my Father."

But again, who is Jesus to the catholic church compared to the pope? His words are meaningless to them. That's called blasphemy. And no one who believes the pope over Jesus follows Christ. He follows the pope.

Jesus was tempted to sin like all humans. But because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit then he had the power of God in him to resist sinning. But God is never tempted to sin. So since you don't know who God is, I can see why you are confused about who it is you worship.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

So Jesus was a sinner and Mary was sinless. It's now finally obvious what the catholic church believes.

It was satire. I was saying it because the notion that Jesus was a sinner is ridiculous. I did it to demonstrate a point about the verse, not spread a horrible heresy that Jesus was a sinner.

But again, who is Jesus to the catholic church compared to the pope? His words are meaningless to them. That's called blasphemy. And no one who believes the pope over Jesus follows Christ. He follows the pope.

ummm.... yeah.... about that. I would agree with that statement if is wasnt for the whole Jesus as the central pillar of everything belief we have going for us. Thank you for yet another uninformed attack on the Church.

Jesus was tempted to sin like all humans. But because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit then he had the power of God in him to resist sinning. But God is never tempted to sin. So since you don't know who God is, I can see why you are confused about who it is you worship.

Lets play name that heresy! Is it Arianism? Is it Manichaenism? Is it Donatism? Who can tell us?! Regardless of the name of your heresy, it was refuted over a millenium ago. Get with the times ;-) .

Again, please provide sripture that say Mary was sinlesss If you can't provide any, then it is a made-up gospel, period.

Fulton Sheens Warrior did. And I made a point about the Assumption that you didnt address. Its a good point, I think.

25: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. John 21

You cant deny history and culture. Explain it to me. Though good luck with that. Im not sure if an explanation like that is in Scripture...

 

[Heidi]

So Jesus was a sinner and Mary was sinless. It's now finally obvious what the catholic church believes.

It was satire. I was saying it because the notion that Jesus was a sinner is ridiculous. I did it to demonstrate a point about the verse, not spread a horrible heresy that Jesus was a sinner.

[quote:344ea]But again, who is Jesus to the catholic church compared to the pope? His words are meaningless to them. That's called blasphemy. And no one who believes the pope over Jesus follows Christ. He follows the pope.

ummm.... yeah.... about that. I would agree with that statement if is wasnt for the whole Jesus as the central pillar of everything belief we have going for us. Thank you for yet another uninformed attack on the Church.

Jesus was tempted to sin like all humans. But because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit then he had the power of God in him to resist sinning. But God is never tempted to sin. So since you don't know who God is, I can see why you are confused about who it is you worship.

Lets play name that heresy! Is it Arianism? Is it Manichaenism? Is it Donatism? Who can tell us?! Regardless of the name of your heresy, it was refuted over a millenium ago. Get with the times ;-) .

Again, please provide sripture that say Mary was sinlesss If you can't provide any, then it is a made-up gospel, period.

Fulton Sheens Warrior did. And I made a point about the Assumption that you didnt address. Its a good point, I think.

25: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. John 21

You cant deny history and culture. Explain it to me. Though good luck with that. Im not sure if an explanation like that is in Scripture...[/quote:344ea]

Again, do you know what a made-up gospel is?

So...you consider the church of God one who disagrees with the bible and makes up their own bible? Is that correct? Why? :o

And of course, you still haven't provided scripture that says Mary was sinless. So you are making up your own bible. Sorry, but I agrree withe peter when he tells us what will happen to those who make up stories:

"In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made-up. Their destruction has long been hanging over the heads and their donemnation has not been sleeping."

 

[ttg]

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

 

[Heidi]

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

Again, please provie scripture that says that Mary was sinless. If it were in the bible, then it shouldn't be hard to do at all.

Jimmy Hoffa's bones were never found! Did that make him sinless? :o Do you even think?

Once again; Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, among those born of woman, there is no greater one than John the Baptist, yet I tell you that he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.." Do you think Jesus is lying? :o Yes or no?

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Again, please provie scripture that says that Mary was sinless. If it were in the bible, then it shouldn't be hard to do at all.

You are like a broken record. I suppose you dont believe in miracles unless they are in the bible too. When will you address what Fulton Sheens Warrior said (im a bit like a broken record too). He gave you a scripture, and you conveniently ignore it every time.

Once again; Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, among those born of woman, there is no greater one than John the Baptist, yet I tell you that he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.."

Jesus was born of woman... need I go further? He said of those born among woman.

i believe this is a humility thing, at least in part. God says that the greatest on earth will be the least. They lack humility. John the Baptist disbelieved that Jesus was the Messiah. He had to send messengers to ask him. Mary was humble. Extremely humble. So humble that on earth she was counted as nothing, or at least desired that. But God highly exalts the humble.

(And just so you know, the Jesus sentence was satire again. It demonstrates that you just throwing out scripture like that actually proves nothing and can be used against your case. Thats two verses I have discredited. And Im still waiting for you to discredit FSW).

And ttg managed to put out some good scripture, yet you want it said explicitely that Mary was sinless. I suppose you believe Jesus was impaled on a stake and that 144000 will get to heaven... essentially, your statements about Jesus are Jehovahs Witness doctrine.

 

[Heidi]

Again, please provie scripture that says that Mary was sinless. If it were in the bible, then it shouldn't be hard to do at all.

You are like a broken record. I suppose you dont believe in miracles unless they are in the bible too. When will you address what Fulton Sheens Warrior said (im a bit like a broken record too). He gave you a scripture, and you conveniently ignore it every time.

[quote:9dbac]Once again; Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, among those born of woman, there is no greater one than John the Baptist, yet I tell you that he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.."

Jesus was born of woman... need I go further? He said of those born among woman.

i believe this is a humility thing, at least in part. God says that the greatest on earth will be the least. They lack humility. John the Baptist disbelieved that Jesus was the Messiah. He had to send messengers to ask him. Mary was humble. Extremely humble. So humble that on earth she was counted as nothing, or at least desired that. But God highly exalts the humble.

(And just so you know, the Jesus sentence was satire again. It demonstrates that you just throwing out scripture like that actually proves nothing and can be used against your case. Thats two verses I have discredited. And Im still waiting for you to discredit FSW).

And ttg managed to put out some good scripture, yet you want it said explicitely that Mary was sinless. I suppose you believe Jesus was impaled on a stake and that 144000 will get to heaven... essentially, your statements about Jesus are Jehovahs Witness doctrine.[/quote:9dbac]

I wouldn't be a broken record if you simply provided scripture to support the fact that Mary was sinless and a virgin all of her life. But since you keep evading the question, then I will coninute to ask it.

 

[Solo]

Solo says "Mary is in her grave until Jesus returns when she will be resurrected with the other believers."

Just where is this grave? If Mary was not assumed into Heaven surely she has a grave, a tomb, a monument or relics.

There weren't any Roman Catholics around to place her in a bathtub in the front yard back then. She was laid to rest in a grave to await the coming of Jesus just like the other believers. The Apostle Peter is buried in Jerusalem while Simon of Magnus is buried in Rome. The Roman Catholics believe Simon Magnus to be the Apostle Peter and they ascribe to some of his pagan teachings. There is no difference between Mary and other believers. She was used by God for his works, just as are other believers.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Yes, however, the early christian church was not going to lose the Mother of Christ. They wouldnt have put her in a bathtub, but the grave would not have been lost... and her relics would have been distributed. No relics. No grave. Kinda like Jesus.. No relics, no grave... and he was assumed! And its not like Jimmy Hoffa. He had real enemies who wanted to kill him and then probably did. Please, do not compare Hoffa to Mary. Even as an analogy. I somehow doubt someone wanted to kill her and then hid her.

 

[ChristineES]

While I am certain that Mary was an upright woman, I don't think she was sinless. I know that Catholics disagree with me, but I also believe that she and Joseph had other children after Jesus. Sex between a married couple is not sinning, by any means.
I don't want to pooh-pooh the Catholics belief by any means, but that is what I believe.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Dear people on this thread. ChristineEs is a good example of charity. Lets follow that example.

And yes, we disagree on the issue of her perpetual virginity. But hey. It happens. ;-)