Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ

[Hopeful]

1. Do you believe and teach that a Christian who falls short of being perfectly sinless, is not really a true born again Christian?

or
2. Do you believe and teach a true born again Christian can confess their sin and be cleansed of all unrighteousness?

What does the bible say?
1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
I believe what the bible says.

 

[JLB]

As the word "practice" is not in the written word, and used by so many to accommodate sin, I reject the notion in its entirety.
Can apple seeds bear onions?
The seed determines the fruit.
Evil fruit comes from evil seed.
A problem alleviated by rebirth from God's seed.
Thanks be to God for making things so plain to understand.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:7-9

• He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

JLB

 

[JLB]

What does the bible say?
1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
I believe what the bible says.

Im not asking what the Bible says, because I quoted the Bible and you said you rejected it.

1. Do you believe and teach that a Christian who falls short of being perfectly sinless, is not really a true born again Christian?

or


2. Do you believe and teach a true born again Christian can confess their sin and be cleansed of all unrighteousness?







JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:7-9

• He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Even with the additional word "practice" added to scripture, the truth holds firm.
So, one sin every year is "practicing" sin.
Right?
Any sin that needs to be "turned from" more than once is "practicing" sin.
Right?

With that in mind, I must ask...Is one murder in one's life after a supposed conversion and rebirth NOT a sin?
How about one bout of adultery?
One armed robbery?
One kidnapping?
One rape?
Or do any and all of those sins show an unconverted condition?

 

[Hopeful]

Im not asking what the Bible says, because I quoted the Bible and you said you rejected it.

1. Do you believe and teach that a Christian who falls short of being perfectly sinless, is not really a true born again Christian?

I believe what the bible teaches in 1 John 3:9, that those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin.
Don't you believe it too?

or
2. Do you believe and teach a true born again Christian can confess their sin and be cleansed of all unrighteousness?

They must repent of, turn from, all sin to be a Christian.

 

[JLB]

Even with the additional word "practice" added to scripture, the truth holds firm.
So, one sin every year is "practicing" sin.
Right?
Any sin that needs to be "turned from" more than once is "practicing" sin.
Right?

With that in mind, I must ask...Is one murder in one's life after a supposed conversion and rebirth NOT a sin?
How about one bout of adultery?
One armed robbery?
One kidnapping?
One rape?
Or do any and all of those sins show an unconverted condition?

You are making up your own reasoning and trying to apply it to scripture.


Again, here is the process Jesus has set forth about a brother who sins.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

The Church has the ability to determine that a brother who sins is to be considered as a sinner, and that is after the process described by the Lord Jesus.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-5




JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe what the bible teaches in 1 John 3:9, that those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin.
Don't you believe it too?

So you are going to avoid giving me an answer?

• Do you believe and teach that a Christian who falls short of being perfectly sinless, is not really a true born again Christian?

1 John 3:9 does not say if a person is not perfectly sinless they are not a true born again Christian, so I wanted to see where you stand.


Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9


No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 NASB







JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Here is the truth, listen to me.
We are in Christ.
We do sin and repent.
We continue to walk with Christ every day, but we still fall because we have yet to reach perfection.
We repent, God forgives, and we keep going.
We talk to God, we walk with God, and the we stumble in the presence of God.
He lifts us up, dusts off the dirt, and then we continue on our walk.

Did I quote even one verse.
Did I need to quote even one verse.
We all know the verses and we all know what I say is true.

Here is what I say.
Start your day with God.
Look forward to his blessings everyday.
Praise him continually on the way.
Walk in victory!
Amen

 

[Hopeful]

You are making up your own reasoning and trying to apply it to scripture.

Do you really believe apple seeds can bring forth the fruit of different seeds?
NO?
Then why do you believe God's seed can bring forth liars and thieves?

Again, here is the process Jesus has set forth about a brother who sins.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

I have one brother and two sisters.
But they are not Christians.
I will forgive them for whatever sins they commit against me.
But they are not brothers and sisters in Christ.

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

The Church has the ability to determine that a brother who sins is to be considered as a sinner, and that is after the process described by the Lord Jesus.
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-5

Considering someone who sins as a sinner is pretty basic thinking.
Considering those who sin as Christian brothers is inanity.
BTW, there were no Christians churches till after Jesus rose from the dead.
So Jesus must have been talking about synagogues.

 

[Hopeful]

So you are going to avoid giving me an answer?

You are going to disbelieve God's word in favor of what I think?

• Do you believe and teach that a Christian who falls short of being perfectly sinless, is not really a true born again Christian?

1 John 3:9 does not say if a person is not perfectly sinless they are not a true born again Christian, so I wanted to see where you stand.

No, it doesn't.
It infers that those who commit sin are not born of God.
In fact, the next verse says..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 NASB

Amen to that.
Why are you having such a hard time believing what is written?
He cannot sin because His seed remaineth in him.
God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Apple seeds cannot bear onions, or any other fruit or vegetable.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is the truth, listen to me.
We are in Christ.
We do sin and repent.
We continue to walk with Christ every day, but we still fall because we have yet to reach perfection.
We repent, God forgives, and we keep going.
We talk to God, we walk with God, and the we stumble in the presence of God.
He lifts us up, dusts off the dirt, and then we continue on our walk.

Did I quote even one verse.
Did I need to quote even one verse.
We all know the verses and we all know what I say is true.

What you "say" is contrary to scripture.

Here is what I say.
Start your day with God.
Look forward to his blessings everyday.
Praise him continually on the way.
Walk in victory!
Amen

Sinners don't walk in victory.

 

[JLB]

Do you really believe apple seeds can bring forth the fruit of different seeds?

No, I don’t believe apple seeds can bring forth onions.

 

[JLB]

Sinners don't walk in victory.

Amen. We agree.

 

[JLB]

Amen to that.
Why are you having such a hard time believing what is written?

Why do you have such a hard time understanding what is written, especially the context in which it is written?

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:7-9 NASB


Then you ignore the rest of what John and Jesus say about this subject.






JLB

 

[JLB]

I have one brother and two sisters.
But they are not Christians.
I will forgive them for whatever sins they commit against me.
But they are not brothers and sisters in Christ.

This teaching is referring to brothers in Christ, who are under the authority of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.



Again, here is the process Jesus has set forth about a brother who sins.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

The Church has the ability to determine that a brother who sins is to be considered as a sinner, and that is after the process described by the Lord Jesus.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-5


As we all see, Jesus tells us to forgive our brother in Christ if he repents of his sin.




JLB

 

[JLB]

It infers that those who commit sin are not born of God.

That is what the word “commit” means, and why some versions use the word “practice”.

Here is the verse with the Strongs numbers —



No G3956 G3756 one G3956 who has been born G1080 of God G2316 practices G4160 sin G266, because G3754 His seed G4690 remains G3306 in him; and he cannot G1410 G3756sin G264 continually, because G3754 he has been born G1080 of God G2316.
No G3956 G3756 one G3956 who has been born G1080 of God G2316 practices G4160 sin G266, because G3754 His seed G4690 remains G3306 in him; and he cannot G1410 G3756 sin G264 continually, because G3754 he has been born G1080 of God G2316.
1 John 3:8-9 NASB


He that committeth G4160 sin G266 is G2076 of G1537 the devil; G1228 for G3754 the devil G1228 sinneth G264 from G575 the beginning. G746 For G1519 this purpose G5124 the Son G5207 of God G2316 was manifested, G5319 that G2443 he might destroy G3089 the works G2041 of the devil. G1228
Whosoever G3956 is born G1080 of G1537 God G2316 doth G4160 not G3756 commit sin; G266 for G3754 his G846 seed G4690 remaineth G3306 in G1722 him: G846 and G2532 he cannot G3756 G1410 sin, G264 because G3754 he is born G1080 of G1537 God. G2316 1 John 3:8-9 KJV






JLB

 

[Hopeful]

No, I don’t believe apple seeds can bring forth onions.

Why then do you think those that commit sin are our brothers?
They bring forth the fruit of the devil.

 

[Hopeful]

Why do you have such a hard time understanding what is written, especially the context in which it is written?

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:7-9 NASB


Then you ignore the rest of what John and Jesus say about this subject.

You have added the word "practice" in order to include sin in a believers life.
There is no other reason to do so.
One sin shows of whom one is born.

 

[Hopeful]

This teaching is referring to brothers in Christ, who are under the authority of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Those under the authority of Christ don't serve any other master.
Sinners are the servants of sin.
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)

Again, here is the process Jesus has set forth about a brother who sins.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Where I a Jew at the time it was said, it would apply to me.
But since the NT was inaugurated, the church is only those who have been reborn of God' seed and cannot commit sin.

The Church has the ability to determine that a brother who sins is to be considered as a sinner, and that is after the process described by the Lord Jesus.
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-5
As we all see, Jesus tells us to forgive our brother in Christ if he repents of his sin.

How did men get "in Christ" in the OT?
Nobody was in Christ before there was a baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
It is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" (Rom 6:3)
Sinners are not the brothers of those who do not commit sin.

 

[Hopeful]

That is what the word “commit” means, and why some versions use the word “practice”.

Here is the verse with the Strongs numbers —



No G3956 G3756 one G3956 who has been born G1080 of God G2316 practices G4160 sin G266, because G3754 His seed G4690 remains G3306 in him; and he cannot G1410 G3756sin G264 continually, because G3754 he has been born G1080 of God G2316.
No G3956 G3756 one G3956 who has been born G1080 of God G2316 practices G4160 sin G266, because G3754 His seed G4690 remains G3306 in him; and he cannot G1410 G3756 sin G264 continually, because G3754 he has been born G1080 of God G2316.
1 John 3:8-9 NASB


He that committeth G4160 sin G266 is G2076 of G1537 the devil; G1228 for G3754 the devil G1228 sinneth G264 from G575 the beginning. G746 For G1519 this purpose G5124 the Son G5207 of God G2316 was manifested, G5319 that G2443 he might destroy G3089 the works G2041 of the devil. G1228
Whosoever G3956 is born G1080 of G1537 God G2316 doth G4160 not G3756 commit sin; G266 for G3754 his G846 seed G4690 remaineth G3306 in G1722 him: G846 and G2532 he cannot G3756 G1410 sin, G264 because G3754 he is born G1080 of G1537 God. G2316 1 John 3:8

So one murder is OK.
But heaven forbid you do it everyday !!!
Then it is practicing sin and fits the scripture someone has invented to allow the idea of sin in the church to flourish.
Such a pity.