Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ

[for_his_glory]

We believe differently.

By that statement it makes me wonder if you even know the difference between the inner man and outer man since you reject the scriptures we have been giving you on this.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes the way of wickedness is darkness.

I would think everyone would agree.


However, the verse we are discussing refers to walking in the light.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


Darkness, is not mentioned in this verse. The subject of this verse is walking in the light.


Those who walk in the light, with God, have these two promises.

if we walk in the light as He is in the light —

• we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

JLB

They are opposite one another.
We can't recognize the light if we cant recognize darkness.
John's letter included both, using one as a foil for the other.
Alternating verses of light and dark to spot-light the differences.

 

[Hopeful]

No the scriptures don’t teach us walking in the light is the way to keep sinning.
The scripture teaches us that. — if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
You keep making up things that are not mentioned in this verse, such as walking in darkness, and to keep sinning.
Why? JLB

I do it so you will realize that people who walk in God do not commit sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Do you know how many fall away from God thinking they will never be perfect because of their imperfections according to this false teaching of sinless perfection. Believe me there are many as I was one of them many years ago.

None, because they have never accepted God in the first place.
It is written..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)
A true repentance from sin will correct that.

 

[Hopeful]

If you are speaking about 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 what do suppose corruptible means if it is not sin?

It means the deterioration of the vessel.
We get a little worse, physically, every day.

 

[Hopeful]

Again, only showing the scriptures you want to help support Wesley's theory, but neglecting the ones where God's grace is sufficient in our weakness.

Why not let God be strong before you "get weak"?
It is written..."I will love thee, O Lord, my strength." (Psa 18:1)
He is our strength.
It is written..."And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Cor 12:9)
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." (Phil 4:13)

If His grace is sufficient, there is no reason to fall, or jump into sin.

 

[Hopeful]

By that statement it makes me wonder if you even know the difference between the inner man and outer man since you reject the scriptures we have been giving you on this.

I know that one mind controls them both.
Your "outer" man can't do anything without the mind's approval.
That is why there is no unwillful sin.

 

[JLB]

They are opposite one another.
We can't recognize the light if we cant recognize darkness.
John's letter included both, using one as a foil for the other.
Alternating verses of light and dark to spot-light the differences.

You on the other hand have chosen to mix together verses to come up with your own doctrine.


Again, this verse is about those who walk in the light, and the benefits they receive from walking in the light.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


if we walk in the light as He is in the light…


This is the subject of verse 7, walking in the light.


Here are the two benefits of walking in the light —

• we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The Apostle John was inspired by the Spirit to write of his experience in this matter, to encourage us to pursue God even though we may not be perfect. He emphasized this point by the next verse.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8



Walking in the light doesn’t mean we are perfectly sinless, it means we desire to remain in fellowship with Him, and not “hide ourselves” from Him the way Adam and Eve did when they sinned, but we have chosen to remain in fellowship with Him, by confessing our sin, and being forgiven and cleansed so we can indeed remain in fellowship with Him, even though we are flawed; even though our flesh contains sin.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


Of course He doesn’t want us to sin, but if we do, we have an Advocate with the Father, and can confess our sin, and be forgiven.


If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:10



My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

You on the other hand have chosen to mix together verses to come up with your own doctrine.

I'm not sure what "the-other-hand" is?
That is, what am I "other" than?

Again, this verse is about those who walk in the light, and the benefits they receive from walking in the light.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

I agree with both points.

if we walk in the light as He is in the light…
This is the subject of verse 7, walking in the light.

Agreed. Plus how to initiate it.

Here are the two benefits of walking in the light —

• we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Agreed, though it is those who walk in darkness who still need the cleansing power of the blood of Christ.
Those in the light have already profited from such cleansing.

The Apostle John was inspired by the Spirit to write of his experience in this matter, to encourage us to pursue God even though we may not be perfect. He emphasized this point by the next verse.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Wouldn't it be those who sin that would be lying if they say they said they had no sin?
Those who have been cleansed of sin by the blood of the Son of God can certainly say they have no sin.
Agreed?

Walking in the light doesn’t mean we are perfectly sinless,

As the light is God..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)...you are inferring that there is sin in God !
I just don't hold that view.

it means we desire to remain in fellowship with Him, and not “hide ourselves” from Him the way Adam and Eve did when they sinned, but we have chosen to remain in fellowship with Him, by confessing our sin, and being forgiven and cleansed so we can indeed remain in fellowship with Him, even though we are flawed; even though our flesh contains sin.

Please explain how our skin and bones can "contain" sin?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

So we can then say we have no sin...right?

Of course He doesn’t want us to sin, but if we do, we have an Advocate with the Father, and can confess our sin, and be forgiven.

So we can then say we have no sin...right?

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:10

No one in the NT can say they have never committed sin, or the shedding of the blood of Christ would have been unnecessary.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1

Thanks be to God !!!
I like verses 3 and 4 too..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Those who don't keep His commandments are those who walk in darkness.

 

[JLB]

Thanks be to God !!!
I like verses 3 and 4 too..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Those who don't keep His commandments are those who walk in darkness.

I quote them all the time.


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:3-11

• He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

So if my brother in Christ sins against me, and I don’t forgive him, then I hate my brother.


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

I quote them all the time.


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:3-11

• He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

So if my brother in Christ sins against me, and I don’t forgive him, then I hate my brother.
Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22

If he sinned against you, he hated you.
He was not walking in the light, whether you call him a brother or not.

 

[JLB]

If he sinned against you, he hated you.
He was not walking in the light, whether you call him a brother or not.

It’s not about what I call him, it’s about what Jesus calls him.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4


So if my brother in Christ sins against me, and I don’t forgive him, then I hate my brother.


Do you believe it’s a sin to not forgive your brother in Christ to sin against you?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

It’s not about what I call him, it’s about what Jesus calls him.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4

That works if a fellow Jew, or a member of your family, sins against you.
Brother citizens...brother Joneses.

So if my brother in Christ sins against me, and I don’t forgive him, then I hate my brother.

Your implication is that hateful people (sinners) are in Christ.
I can't accept that.
We are to forgive anyone who sins against us.
It is written..."But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matt 5:44)

Do you believe it’s a sin to not forgive your brother in Christ to sin against you?

It is a sin not to forgive anyone.
My brothers in Christ don't sin.
Their sin is as likely as apple trees bringing forth onions.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

 

[JLB]

That works if a fellow Jew, or a member of your family, sins against you.
Brother citizens...brother Joneses.

So you believe Jesus was teaching the principle of forgiveness to unbelievers?


An unbeliever can forgive someone a thousand times, but it won’t do any good unless they are born again.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your implication is that hateful people (sinners) are in Christ.

This is a total misrepresentation of me, since I plainly teach that a sinner is a person who is separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


We who are His people, born again Christians, can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8



JLB

 

[JLB]

It is a sin not to forgive anyone.
My brothers in Christ don't sin.
Their sin is as likely as apple trees bringing forth onions.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

There are several different words for sin in this passage, and you must look at the context, and frame John’s message in the context of what he is teaching us by the Spirit.


The idea or concept here is “practicing righteousness“ verses “practicing unrighteousness“ (sin). Those who “practice righteousness“ as a lifestyle are righteous.

Likewise, those who “practice sin” are unrighteous, (sinners).


If a person puts a bandaid on a person who has a cut, does that make them a doctor; someone who “practices medicine” as a lifestyle?



Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:7-9 NASB



JLB

 

[JLB]

It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

1. Do you believe and teach that a Christian who falls short of being perfectly sinless, is not really a true born again Christian?

or


2. Do you believe and teach a true born again Christian can confess their sin and be cleansed of all unrighteousness?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

So you believe Jesus was teaching the principle of forgiveness to unbelievers?

Why do you equate Jewish folks following Jesus with unbelieves?
They were most certainly all men who still walked in the flesh, as nobody could walk in the Spirit until Jesus was raised from the dead.
But the day of the resurrection was fast approaching.
I can't comment on the state of their beliefs.

An unbeliever can forgive someone a thousand times, but it won’t do any good unless they are born again.

Didn't Jesus teach us that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins?
It is written..."But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." (Matt 9:6)
Also, Jesus commanded us to forgive others...
It is written..."So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." (Matt 18:35)

Are we not "sons of man"?

 

[Hopeful]

This is a total misrepresentation of me, since I plainly teach that a sinner is a person who is separated from Christ.

You did say this, in post #93...
"So if my brother in Christ sins against me, and I don’t forgive him, then I hate my brother."
So, brothers in Christ can't sin against you.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

Amen.

We who are His people, born again Christians, can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.

How could we confess sins if we are in Christ?
Sinners are separate from Christ...as you said earlier.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Amen...then start walking in Christ...the light.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

It is indeed a lie...for those who commit sin.
Those who walk in darkness.

 

[Hopeful]

There are several different words for sin in this passage, and you must look at the context, and frame John’s message in the context of what he is teaching us by the Spirit.


The idea or concept here is “practicing righteousness“ verses “practicing unrighteousness“ (sin). Those who “practice righteousness“ as a lifestyle are righteous.

Likewise, those who “practice sin” are unrighteous, (sinners).


If a person puts a bandaid on a person who has a cut, does that make them a doctor; someone who “practices medicine” as a lifestyle?



Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:7-9 NASB
JLB

As the word "practice" is not in the written word, and used by so many to accommodate sin, I reject the notion in its entirety.
Can apple seeds bear onions?
The seed determines the fruit.
Evil fruit comes from evil seed.
A problem alleviated by rebirth from God's seed.
Thanks be to God for making things so plain to understand.