Sinning Ignorantly

[Classik]

No such thing as that? Can a Christian be doing something (sinful) and yet he/she has no idea it is wrong?

Yes or no? But remember the Spirit convicts us of something...

 

[Brother Mike]

No such thing as that? Can a Christian be doing something (sinful) and yet he/she has no idea it is wrong?

Yes or no? But remember the Spirit convicts us of something...

Php_3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

If the Holy Spirit says, "HEY!!! That is not cool." Then God is revealing something we are not perfect minded about. So we say, I see that, I'll change that.

There is no such thing as sinning if we are not sinning. To be a sin, we would have to violate something we know and revealed to us.

Why I don't asked to be forgiven everyday just in case, that is just stupid, and lacks being thoughtful.

Like making the bed. The wife has some strange attatchment to having the bed made. The whole house could be a trash heap, but having the bed made makes all the difference.

After years of battling this strange addiction with her about making the bed, the Lord asked me to keep the peace and just make the bed. So for me to ignore that and not make the bed would be sin. I would violate orders and direction for something I know.

Blessings.

 

[Michael74]

The Lord said to Moses: “When anyone is unfaithful to the Lord by sinning unintentionally... Leviticus 5:14-15a NIV

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think sinning unintentionally is a part of growth. We all sin, fall short, etc., but I think unintentional sin is more common early in the Christian Walk and then becomes less of an issue, or I'd assume as much.

 

[Michael74]

“If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible. Leviticus 5:17 NIV

 

[Brother Mike]

“If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible. Leviticus 5:17 NIV

And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
(Lev 5:17-18)

Php_3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(Rom 5:13)

It's still the same, the guy had to be told that what he was doing was not jiving with the Lord's commandments and once finding out he brought a ram to get things fixed.

Our standard is higher, because we are told to be perfect minded. So things we do that we have no idea that it's bad, God will reveal these things to us so we can also get them fixed. Our standard is not the law, but what is revealed to us.

blessings.

 

[Michael74]

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8 NIV

 

[iLOVE]

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV means you can't sin your salvation away, however you can renounce it. You can reject your faith. God had made it so difficult to do unless you meet the five qualifications mentioned in this scripture as a mature Christian and ignorance does not count. So it is possible but God has made it extremely difficult.

The Lord’s Grace to Paul

"12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 1:12-14


Jesus Grace tops sin. All Christians are Holy, sanctified, and righteous by what Jesus did, not by what we do. Being Holy, sanctified, and righteous is not based on your behavior. If you believe in Jesus and believe what the blood has done you are Holy, sanctified, righteous, and redeemed. Your spirit has been sealed with Jesus so the good can't get out, and the bad can't get in. Hebrews 10:10 says, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." The question is do you believe it?

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, = Unbelief, you do not believe Jesus is the finial sacrifice for your sins. Which means there are no more sacrifices.

 

[Classik]

(Lev 5:17-18)
Our standard is higher, because we are told to be perfect minded. So things we do that we have no idea that it's bad, God will reveal these things to us so we can also get them fixed. Our standard is not the law, but what is revealed to us.

blessings.

Does God count it as sin at that point the individual does that thing which the Lord forbids?

 

[Brother Mike]

Does God count it as sin at that point the individual does that thing which the Lord forbids?

Anything that is not of faith is sin. Paul speaks a whole lot about conscience, and keeping the conscience clear and the conscience connected to the Holy Spirit.

As you know, sin is not a long list of do's and don'ts.

The guy in Lev had a long list of Do's and Don'ts. It was called the Law, and the ordinances that went with the law. (Eat, drink, feasts....)

All the Lord said is that they are guilty and still responsible for bringing in the ram to be sacrificed for them. So despite them NOT knowing the law fully and doing something ignorant, once caught, they could not just say I did not know about it, so why do I have to do the Ram thing if I did not know?
Ignorant or not, your bringing the Ram in buddy. To let folks go with just saying they did not know, then that would soon stop any sacrifices the Lord set up and need for priest. Because suddenly, everyone would become stupid and avoid all that.

For us, violating our conscience, is not faith and is sin. If we have no conscience of something, and do it then it's not sin.

Example would be questioning if Heavy Metal Christian music is OK to listen to. The question itself says they don't have faith to listen to it without wondering if God is OK with it or not. So they post on some forum, get the pro's and con's, and weight them. They decided that the Pro's are more heavy than the Con's so they crank up Christiantallica.

That is sin, they violated what they knew and over ride their own conscience.

 

[Stan1953]

No such thing as that? Can a Christian be doing something (sinful) and yet he/she has no idea it is wrong?
Yes or no? But remember the Spirit convicts us of something...

IMO, yes. That is why we are commanded to AGREE with God about what is sin so it can be forgiven in our lives. 1 John 1:9

 

[Deborah13]

IMO, yes. That is why we are commanded to AGREE with God about what is sin so it can be forgiven in our lives. 1 John 1:9

How can one agree if they don't know?
I believe one can stifle their faith, when they are always worried about whether they might sin without knowing it. Here's an example from scripture.
Rom 14:1 And him who is weak in the faith receive ye--not to determinations of reasonings;
Rom 14:2 one doth believe that he may eat all things--and he who is weak doth eat herbs;
Rom 14:3 let not him who is eating despise him who is not eating: and let not him who is not eating judge him who is eating, for God did receive him.
A Jew may be afraid to eat because the meat may not be what they consider an clean meat or may have been sacrificed to an idol. A Gentile may be afraid to eat meat because they worry that it may have been sacrificed to an idol.
Paul says God receives them both.

 

[Stan1953]

How can one agree if they don't know?
I believe one can stifle their faith, when they are always worried about whether they might sin without knowing it. Here's an example from scripture.
Rom 14:1 And him who is weak in the faith receive ye--not to determinations of reasonings;
Rom 14:2 one doth believe that he may eat all things--and he who is weak doth eat herbs;
Rom 14:3 let not him who is eating despise him who is not eating: and let not him who is not eating judge him who is eating, for God did receive him.
A Jew may be afraid to eat because the meat may not be what they consider an clean meat or may have been sacrificed to an idol. A Gentile may be afraid to eat meat because they worry that it may have been sacrificed to an idol.
Paul says God receives them both.

I guess that is the crux of our walk with Christ. Do we really not know or are we fooling even ourselves? If we are in tune with the Holy Spirit, we will know. If one has to question ones actions then obviously there is doubt and as Paul instructed in Rom 14:23, we need to always examine ourselves.
For sure we must never use our freedom to cause others to stumble. Years ago, a few years after I was saved, I was rather prideful about believing it was NOT an issue to drink wine as a believer. Long story short I was the cause of a sister smoking pot one weekend and she got terrible convicted. When I found out and asked her why, she said it was my fault because of my position on drinking wine. I accepted that responsibility and don't voice my freedoms to people I don't know the maturity level of.

 

[Deborah13]

Do we really not know or are we fooling even ourselves? If we are in tune with the Holy Spirit, we will know.

I think a young Christian could easily not know about somethings and not be 'in tune' enough with the Holy Spirit to discern all things.

For sure we must never use our freedom to cause others to stumble.

I wasn't thinking about causing someone else to stumble, although that is a very good point.
In the scriptures I used....
It is sin to eat meat that has been offered to an idol, false god. Would it be a sin if one ate not knowing it had been offered?

 

[Stan1953]

I think a young Christian could easily not know about something's and not be 'in tune' enough with the Holy Spirit to discern all things.

I agree, but sooner or later they will feel it, IF they are really seeking God.

It is sin to eat meat that has been offered to an idol, false god. Would it be a sin if one ate not knowing it had been offered?

No, because as Paul states v22-23, it's all about our personal faith, in this regard.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV means you can't sin your salvation away, however you can renounce it. You can reject your faith. God had made it so difficult to do unless you meet the five qualifications mentioned in this scripture as a mature Christian and ignorance does not count. So it is possible but God has made it extremely difficult.

The Lord’s Grace to Paul

"12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 1:12-14


Jesus Grace tops sin. All Christians are Holy, sanctified, and righteous by what Jesus did, not by what we do. Being Holy, sanctified, and righteous is not based on your behavior. If you believe in Jesus and believe what the blood has done you are Holy, sanctified, righteous, and redeemed. Your spirit has been sealed with Jesus so the good can't get out, and the bad can't get in. Hebrews 10:10 says, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." The question is do you believe it?

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, = Unbelief, you do not believe Jesus is the finial sacrifice for your sins. Which means there are no more sacrifices.

You are misunderstanding Hebrews 6:4-6.
If you read Hebrews 5:11 through Hebrews 6:3, you'll see the writer is talking about immature Christians who still take milk, not solid food.
The writer continues and tells them it's time to grow up, for the mature Christian will not fall away, it is the mature Christian who has been enlightened.
It is impossible for them to fall away, only the immature Christian who has never grown in their faith can fall away.

Think about what you said; "you can't sin your salvation away", yet renouncing the Holy Spirit would be sinning your salvation away.
You have to rethink your understanding here.

 

[Stan1953]

You are misunderstanding Hebrews 6:4-6.
If you read Hebrews 5:11 through Hebrews 6:3, you'll see the writer is talking about immature Christians who still take milk, not solid food.
The writer continues and tells them it's time to grow up, for the mature Christian will not fall away, it is the mature Christian who has been enlightened.
It is impossible for them to fall away, only the immature Christian who has never grown in their faith can fall away.
Think about what you said; "you can't sin your salvation away", yet renouncing the Holy Spirit would be sinning your salvation away.
You have to rethink your understanding here.

Actually the verse reads...

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.​

Luke repeats this thought in Heb 10:36-39 (NIV), that believers CAN shrink back.

To be unequivocal about this, apostasy is NOT losing your salvation...it is denying it ever happened. Charles Templeton is a very apt illustration of this.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Stan, nice to hear from you.
I understand what Hebrews 6:4-6 says, but my point was that people misunderstand it.
I thought my above explanation clarifies that but I guess it doesn't.
Are you sure you have read Hebrews 10:36-39 all the way through?
It finishes by saying, "But we do not belong to those that shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved".
Yes, there is 2 ways to read this verse but I read it as this: If they do not belong to us, then they are not Christians.
Show me a verse that says they were once saved but they lost their salvation.
It doesn't exist.

 

[iLOVE]

You are misunderstanding Hebrews 6:4-6.
If you read Hebrews 5:11 through Hebrews 6:3, you'll see the writer is talking about immature Christians who still take milk, not solid food.
The writer continues and tells them it's time to grow up, for the mature Christian will not fall away, it is the mature Christian who has been enlightened.
It is impossible for them to fall away, only the immature Christian who has never grown in their faith can fall away.

Think about what you said; "you can't sin your salvation away", yet renouncing the Holy Spirit would be sinning your salvation away.
You have to rethink your understanding here.

The scripture says, Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was He mature or on milk?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The scripture says, Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was He mature or on milk?

"Did I not choose you, the twelve, yet one of you is a devil".
Don't confuse yourself.