Sola Fide is Unbibical Error

[Iconoclast]

Well of course you're not going to agree.
This is where we part ways.

I gave you my scenario.
The Father draws ALL MEN TO HIMSELF.

Halt....the Father does not draw all men to Himself, He gives them to Jesus first, then the Father using the Spirit draws them to Jesus

John 3:16 but you claim it's descriptive and I can't argue this all day long.

Jesus does the saving, we agree.
The Holy Spirit,,,we agree.

Of course what we don't agree on is soteriology.
Based on Free Will and Total Depravity.


I dislike posting in the Calvinism Forum.
But tag me in and we'll see.


Happy New Year! Be safe and enjoy the new Year.

 

[GodsGrace]

Halt....the Father does not draw all men to Himself, He gives them to Jesus first, then the Father using the Spirit draws them to Jesus

Uffa!


This is old stuff Icon.
Let me ask you this...
Do you think all the big minds of Christianity got it all wrong until Luther came along and changed soteriological basics?

Tomorrow.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes, sound similar, but are very different. I will go into more detail in the Calvinism forum on the new thread examining such things. I will answer briefly here, with more to open up over there.

In JN6:37 First and most importantly....The Father gives a multitude that no man can number, to the Son. It is this element revealed here than demonstrates the COVENANT nature of this giving. It is not random, but eternally purposed....Then the idea of the effectual drawing...Those given, shall no doubt come, is what Jesus said. It is stated matter of factly, in fact Jesus strengthens it saying,
NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER THAT SENT ME, DRAW HIM.

This is why and where all reformed persons never depart from this basic truth. It explains the giving, the drawing, which results of the coming of believers to Jesus.

His finished work, preached worldwide is the basis for new birth and Kingdom growth

Salvation is a work of all three persons of the Godhead, that is why it is called in Heb. 2 so great salvation.

Yes, exactly. A Perfect Omniscient God reveals a perfect redemptive plan to the church Eph 3:9-11

The Father draws persons who were born in opposition and unwilling to come, by working in them by giving a new heart to be made willing to come to Jesus Psa110:3

The complete gospel is offered to all men everywhere.

No...this is inserting something that is not there. The giving by the Father does not rely upon the dead sinner doing something to cause God to give them. They are given to the Son as dead sinners who the Spirit will quicked to life, all follow Eph 2:1-4



Read the verses to yourself. Which scenerio fits what the verses say?


This is the result, more on the new thread

John 3.16 to 18 destroys the TULI in TULIP!

Because it is UNBIBLICAL HERESY

 

[GodsGrace]

Halt....the Father does not draw all men to Himself, He gives them to Jesus first, then the Father using the Spirit draws them to Jesus

I just reread the above and it makes no sense.
Could you repeat what you mean please?

He gives them to Jesus first, then the Father using the Spirit draws them to Jesus

God give them to Jesus FIRST

THEN He draws them to Jesus.

??

 

[Iconoclast]

I just reread the above and it makes no sense.
Could you repeat what you mean please?

He gives them to Jesus first, then the Father using the Spirit draws them to Jesus

God give them to Jesus FIRST

THEN He draws them to Jesus.

??

It is a new year No need to rush. Let's look again, slowly. No point trying to move to something else if we can not agree on the texts. So let me start in 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

How many of those who the Father gives, come to Jesus? What does this text say?

1] a dozen?
2]a hundred?
3]a few thousand?
4] ALL

and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Now of those given, how many does Jesus cast out?
1] a dozen?
2]a hundred?
3]a few thousand?
4] NONE

Do you agree so far?

 

[Iconoclast]

Uffa!


This is old stuff Icon.

You perhaps were tired when you posted this, but it is not old stuff.
You asked for clarification, but maybe were not looking for clarification.

Let me ask you this...
Do you think all the big minds of Christianity got it all wrong until Luther came along and changed soteriological basics?

The reformation is a whole different topic, we should stick to the texts at hand and not jump all around to confuse the issue.

Tomorrow.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is a new year No need to rush. Let's look again, slowly. No point trying to move to something else if we can not agree on the texts. So let me start in 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

How many of those who the Father gives, come to Jesus? What does this text say?

1] a dozen?
2]a hundred?
3]a few thousand?
4] ALL

and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Now of those given, how many does Jesus cast out?
1] a dozen?
2]a hundred?
3]a few thousand?
4] NONE

Do you agree so far?

Yes. I agree that all that the Father gives to Jesus will go to Him or be with Him or however you want to state it.

ALL that the Father gives to Jesus WILL GO TO JESUS and will be in the care of Jesus.

Agreed.

But you and I both know where this is going...
so....
continue.

 

[GodsGrace]

You perhaps were tired when you posted this, but it is not old stuff.
You asked for clarification, but maybe were not looking for clarification.

The reformation is a whole different topic, we should stick to the texts at hand and not jump all around to confuse the issue.

I'm just tired of going over the same stuff for over a year now.
We both have verses.
We both have an understanding of them.
We don't agree.

So could we move on to a different method?

 

[Iconoclast]

John 3.16 to 18 destroys the TULI in TULIP!

Because it is UNBIBLICAL HERESY

it does nothing of the kind. It goes along with it. I will show this in the Calvinism thread.

 

[SolaScriptura]

it does nothing of the kind. It goes along with it. I will show this in the Calvinism thread.

I wait.

You will not be able to show from the passage in John that God's Saving Love is not for the entire human race, every single human.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes. I agree that all that the Father gives to Jesus will go to Him or be with Him or however you want to state it.

Okay

ALL that the Father gives to Jesus WILL GO TO JESUS and will be in the care of Jesus.

Agreed.

here is our text;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

But you and I both know where this is going...
so....
continue.

You agree All that are given come to Jesus. Not one is lost, but let's examine the next portion of the text that is addressed.
A question might come up. Can anyone who was not given by the Father come to the Son??? vs. 44 says this;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus tells us;
1]All The Father gives shall come
2] No man can come unless the Father gives them
This is why we say it is part of the Covenant of Redemption
There is no one that can be added or taken away .
The multitude is fixed or certain...we cannot add to it, none can be taken away. Jesus again explains it!
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
These are straightforward teachings.
Reformed people did not write it, be we all by God's grace believe it.

 

[Iconoclast]

I wait.

You will not be able to show from the passage in John that God's Saving Love is not for the entire human race, every single human.

Thanks for being patient I type slow, and was answering W.
Before I offer a full response allow me to ask you a few questions based on what you are asking.

1] Do you think God saves every person whoever lived at any time?

2] Do you believe God loves sinners in hell?
3] Do you believe Jesus when he said this?
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus seemed to limit it to those the Father gave Him, Am I wrong?

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm just tired of going over the same stuff for over a year now.

W.....
This is two sections of scripture that you requested

We both have verses.

No we do not have our verses. We are looking at the identical texts, nice and slow, so far we agree as you have admitted

We both have an understanding of them.
We don't agree.

well W..we are going slow and agree so far, so let's not jump to conclusions just yet. let the process work. So far we agree on each point made.

So could we move on to a different method?

No need to move on, until we see if we agree in total. Do not fear, it is what it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

W.....
This is two sections of scripture that you requested

No we do not have our verses. We are looking at the identical texts, nice and slow, so far we agree as you have admitted

well W..we are going slow and agree so far, so let's not jump to conclusions just yet. let the process work. So far we agree on each point made.

No need to move on, until we see if we agree in total. Do not fear, it is what it is.

I fear not where investigating brings me....
for I know Whom I have trusted.


Later.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Thanks for being patient I type slow, and was answering W.
Before I offer a full response allow me to ask you a few questions based on what you are asking.

1] Do you think God saves every person whoever lived at any time?

2] Do you believe God loves sinners in hell?
3] Do you believe Jesus when he said this?
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus seemed to limit it to those the Father gave Him, Am I wrong?

Firstly, I don't believe in universal salvation because the Bible does not teach it

Secondly, yes God does love those who are in hell, but the degree of this love is not the same as His love for His children. There is no reason for God to hate these

Thirdly, Jesus says "as many as", which can mean everyone, as other Scriptures say that the Father has given all to Jesus

 

[Iconoclast]

Firstly, I don't believe in universal salvation because the Bible does not teach it

Okay good, we agree on this

Secondly, yes God does love those who are in hell, but the degree of this love is not the same as His love for His children. There is no reason for God to hate these

Where do you think you see in scripture this idea of a lesser love for those who are placed into eternal torment?
In other words, you suggest God loves and torments these people at the same time, which sounds like a form of mercy, but scripture indicates they have no mercy;
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Thirdly, Jesus says "as many as", which can mean everyone, as other Scriptures say that the Father has given all to Jesus

You are conflating two ideas. Jesus has been given the right to all men.
However when He says "as many as"...while it could have meant all men , it turns out that Jesus said multitudes are cast away, in Mt.7:21-24...so the idea of all is silenced by Jesus. Do you agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3.16 to 18 destroys the TULI in TULIP!

Because it is UNBIBLICAL HERESY

Hi SS
Actually the John 3:16 destroys the U in TULIP.
Unconditional Election.
Which means that God chooses who will be saved based on no conditions, based on nothing at all - at least nothing we mortals can know. It's entirely up to God. No input from us.

The problem is that Calvinists believe that John 3:16 is speaking about those that are already saved.
It's descriptive.
Instead we believe that it's meant for everyone, the whole world, God would want that everyone be saved, but since there ARE conditions, not everyone will be.
This is prescriptive.
John 3:16 is the prescription for being saved...
NOT the description of those already saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay

here is our text;

OK
We'll go thru it, with patience, as you've stated.
I do have one question first however....
Have you always been reformed?
When I post MY VERSION of verses, do you understand what I'm saying?
Do you know what I'm talking about?

Will be back soon.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You agree All that are given come to Jesus. Not one is lost, but let's examine the next portion of the text that is addressed.
A question might come up. Can anyone who was not given by the Father come to the Son??? vs. 44 says this;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus tells us;
1]All The Father gives shall come
2] No man can come unless the Father gives them
This is why we say it is part of the Covenant of Redemption
There is no one that can be added or taken away .
The multitude is fixed or certain...we cannot add to it, none can be taken away. Jesus again explains it!
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
These are straightforward teachings.
Reformed people did not write it, be we all by God's grace believe it.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK
We'll go thru it, with patience, as you've stated.
I do have one question first however....
Have you always been reformed?
When I post MY VERSION of verses, do you understand what I'm saying?
Do you know what I'm talking about?

Will be back soon.

Iconoclast

 

[SolaScriptura]

Okay good, we agree on this

Where do you think you see in scripture this idea of a lesser love for those who are placed into eternal torment?
In other words, you suggest God loves and torments these people at the same time, which sounds like a form of mercy, but scripture indicates they have no mercy;
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You are conflating two ideas. Jesus has been given the right to all men.
However when He says "as many as"...while it could have meant all men , it turns out that Jesus said multitudes are cast away, in Mt.7:21-24...so the idea of all is silenced by Jesus. Do you agree?

I come back to John 3:16-18, which are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. "God so LOVES the human race...", is evident, that He also loves those in this passage, who will end up in hell, because of their unbelief, and rejection of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. Those from this "human race", who do believe in Jesus, will be saved.