SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
The Account of the Lord's Supper in Lukes Gospel clearly says that Jesus Christ died for Judas
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Sola Fide is Unbibical Error
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
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The Account of the Lord's Supper in Lukes Gospel clearly says that Jesus Christ died for Judas
Iconoclast
Member
Here is the thing, you can say anything, but scripture does not contradict scripture. That means when we ask you to explain your view, you cannot do it without posting error. Explain how you think this contradicts the truth of scripture.
Iconoclast
Member
J
Jn 17:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus owns the rights to all men, he has never intended to save all;
Jn 17:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
The only contradiction is in your theology
Jesus saves all that the Father has given Him.
I asked you once to reconcile 2 verses, which you never did.
You say the NT cannot contradict itself...
John 6:44
Vs
John 12:32
Clearly a conflict.
Or is it?
How do the reformed explain it?
Iconoclast
Member
Jesus death was sufficent for everyone, but was only intended for those the Father has given to the Son. Look, that is exactly what Jesus said;37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
jn172 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 6 is the unfolding of the Covenant of Redemption.
The Father, Son, and Spirit, plan how to accomplish Redemption before the world was.
Jesus gives a detailed description of how it happens, All the Father gives, shall come. It is effectual. They all come savingly. It is not let's try and see if any come.All That are given SHALL COME.
In jn 11:49-51 Jesus explains the children of God are scattered worldwide.
Jn 12 does not mention the giving by the Father at all.
It mentions that the gospel going worldwide will reach gentiles, all men, not the Jew only.
The two passages are not the same at all.
Not all come, only the children who are scattered abroad,
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
here is a very simple question. Why do people end up in hell?
Iconoclast
Member
People in hell are there justly because of sins that have not been atoned for. They sinned all through their life, and they die in sins. They have no High Priest, mediator or sacrifice
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Well, that is a poor verse to support my contention that God chooses us for salvation; I shouldn't have used it. I was lazy and cut and pasted from a list of 70ish verses showing God chooses individuals to be saved. This verse simply meant Jesus chose his 12 followers and not Jesus chose 12 to be saved.
We can chose NOTHING. "Choosing" is the result of our will. Since you can't chose your will as it is God given, so you can't chose what to will. Example: Your will doesn't like the taste of Dog Sh.t and you can't chose to change your will l to cause you to like to eat Dog Sh.t. Your will was God given.
... or in fancy words: Self-determinism, as proposed by freewill, means one makes choices independent of God and any other influence. But this is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible. Author Unknown
... and there is emperical proof that we don't choose to believe leading to salvation. You can google it. Search for probability of someone being the same faith as their parents. If you are correct in your assertion that each individual independently can choose to believe salvifically then the stats would have a Muslim's child is just as likely to be Christian as he is to grow up to be a Hindu, RC, Muslim or Latter Day Saint .... but the stats prove otherwise... the stats prove it is statistically impossible (actually highly, highly unlikely) to self-determine to believe salvificly or not.
- Among those raised by protestants eight in ten are Protestants today
- Among those raised in single religious background (especially protestant), those whose childhood most steeped in religion most likely to follow religion of there parents
Granted, this propensity to be of the same religion as your parents doesn't prove God is doing the choosing, but it does prove the individual does NOT DO THE CHOOSING ... SIMPLE STATISTICS and application of LOGIC .... like flipping a coin, if heads come up 70% of the time over 8000 flips you know you have a 'funky' coin (the coin is not doing the choosing so to speak; rather, its creator or someone/something else has rigged the coin).
...also, we are not saved by works (well, the RCs believe in salvation by works but forget them) there if faith is self-generated it would be a work and contradict scripture. Rather scripture says: This is the work of GOD that you believe .... and Gal 5:2-6 warns those who believe in works salvation (like circumcision) are accursed. But if you think you self-determined your faith then you have reason to brag and God is obligated to reward you for what you have done. CONGRATS!!!
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electedbyhim
Member
I know Fastfredy0 posted the link to this some pages ago.
Sola Fide is extremely important to salvation in my opinion, so I decided to copy and paste from Gotquestions.com.
It is concise, but straight to the point.
Sola fide, which means "faith alone," is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics or key points that separate the true biblical Gospel from false gospels. At stake is the very Gospel itself and it is therefore a matter of eternal life or death. Getting the Gospel right is of such importance that the Apostle Paul would write in Galatians 1:9, “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Paul was addressing the same question that sola fide addresses—on what basis is humanity declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works? Paul makes it clear in Galatians and Romans that humanity is “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law” (Galatians 2:16), and the rest of the Bible concurs.
Sola fide is one of the five solas that came to define and summarize the key issues of the Protestant Reformation. Each of these Latin phrases represents a key area of doctrine that was an issue of contention between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church, and today they still serve to summarize key doctrines essential to the Gospel and to Christian life and practice. The Latin word sola means “alone” or “only” and the essential Christian doctrines represented by these five Latin phrases accurately summarize the biblical teaching on these crucial subjects: sola scriptura—Scripture alone, sola fide—faith alone, sola gratia—grace alone, sola Christus—Christ alone, and sola Deo gloria—for the glory of God alone. Each one is vitally important, and they are all closely tied together. Deviation from one will lead to error in another essential doctrine, and the result will almost always be a false gospel which is powerless to save.
Sola fide or faith alone is a key point of difference between not only Protestants and Catholics but between biblical Christianity and almost all other religions and teachings. The teaching that we are declared righteous by God (justified) on the basis of our faith alone and not by works is a key doctrine of the Bible and a line that divides most cults from biblical Christianity. While most religions and cults teach people what works they must do to be saved, the Bible teaches that we are not saved by works, but by God’s grace through His gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Biblical Christianity is distinct from every other religion in that it is centered on what God has accomplished through Christ’s finished work, while all other religions are based on human achievement. If we abandon the doctrine of justification by faith, we abandon the only way of salvation. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5). The Bible teaches that those that trust Jesus Christ for justification by faith alone are imputed with His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21), while those who try to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works will receive the punishment due to all who fall short of God’s perfect standard.
Sola fide—the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works—is simply recognizing what is taught over and over in Scripture—that at some point in time God declares ungodly sinners righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to them (Romans 4:5, 5:8, 19). This happens apart from any works and before the individual actually begins to become righteous. This is an important distinction between Catholic theology that teaches righteous works are meritorious towards salvation and Protestant theology that affirms the biblical teaching that righteous works are the result and evidence of a born-again person who has been justified by God and regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit.
How important is sola fide? It is so important to the Gospel message and a biblical understanding of salvation that Martin Luther described it as being “the article with and by which the church stands.” Those who reject sola fide reject the only Gospel that can save them and by necessity embrace a false gospel. That is why Paul so adamantly denounces those who taught law-keeping or other works of righteousness in Galatians 1:9 and other passages. Yet today this important biblical doctrine is once again under attack. Too often sola fide is relegated to secondary importance instead of being recognized as an essential doctrine of Christianity, which it certainly is.
“Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith’” (Galatians 3:6-11).
Sola Fide is extremely important to salvation in my opinion, so I decided to copy and paste from Gotquestions.com.
It is concise, but straight to the point.
Sola fide, which means "faith alone," is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics or key points that separate the true biblical Gospel from false gospels. At stake is the very Gospel itself and it is therefore a matter of eternal life or death. Getting the Gospel right is of such importance that the Apostle Paul would write in Galatians 1:9, “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Paul was addressing the same question that sola fide addresses—on what basis is humanity declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works? Paul makes it clear in Galatians and Romans that humanity is “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law” (Galatians 2:16), and the rest of the Bible concurs.
Sola fide is one of the five solas that came to define and summarize the key issues of the Protestant Reformation. Each of these Latin phrases represents a key area of doctrine that was an issue of contention between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church, and today they still serve to summarize key doctrines essential to the Gospel and to Christian life and practice. The Latin word sola means “alone” or “only” and the essential Christian doctrines represented by these five Latin phrases accurately summarize the biblical teaching on these crucial subjects: sola scriptura—Scripture alone, sola fide—faith alone, sola gratia—grace alone, sola Christus—Christ alone, and sola Deo gloria—for the glory of God alone. Each one is vitally important, and they are all closely tied together. Deviation from one will lead to error in another essential doctrine, and the result will almost always be a false gospel which is powerless to save.
Sola fide or faith alone is a key point of difference between not only Protestants and Catholics but between biblical Christianity and almost all other religions and teachings. The teaching that we are declared righteous by God (justified) on the basis of our faith alone and not by works is a key doctrine of the Bible and a line that divides most cults from biblical Christianity. While most religions and cults teach people what works they must do to be saved, the Bible teaches that we are not saved by works, but by God’s grace through His gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Biblical Christianity is distinct from every other religion in that it is centered on what God has accomplished through Christ’s finished work, while all other religions are based on human achievement. If we abandon the doctrine of justification by faith, we abandon the only way of salvation. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5). The Bible teaches that those that trust Jesus Christ for justification by faith alone are imputed with His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21), while those who try to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works will receive the punishment due to all who fall short of God’s perfect standard.
Sola fide—the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works—is simply recognizing what is taught over and over in Scripture—that at some point in time God declares ungodly sinners righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to them (Romans 4:5, 5:8, 19). This happens apart from any works and before the individual actually begins to become righteous. This is an important distinction between Catholic theology that teaches righteous works are meritorious towards salvation and Protestant theology that affirms the biblical teaching that righteous works are the result and evidence of a born-again person who has been justified by God and regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit.
How important is sola fide? It is so important to the Gospel message and a biblical understanding of salvation that Martin Luther described it as being “the article with and by which the church stands.” Those who reject sola fide reject the only Gospel that can save them and by necessity embrace a false gospel. That is why Paul so adamantly denounces those who taught law-keeping or other works of righteousness in Galatians 1:9 and other passages. Yet today this important biblical doctrine is once again under attack. Too often sola fide is relegated to secondary importance instead of being recognized as an essential doctrine of Christianity, which it certainly is.
“Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith’” (Galatians 3:6-11).
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
is UNBIBLICAL, human theology!
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
this is RANK HERESY and makes the Teachings of the Infallible Word of God LIES!
Listen to what the Bible actually says WHY those who are in hell, and NOT your UNBIBLICAL, WARPED, "reformed" RUBBISH!
"Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who DOES NOT BELIEVE is already condemned, because he has NOT BELIEVED in the Name of the One and Only Son of God...The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one WHO REFUSES TO BELIEVE in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." (John 3:18, 36), etc, etc
It is their REFUSAL to BELIEVE in the Gospel Concerning The Lord Jesus Christ, and His Gospel Message, that damns their souls to eternal punishment, NOT because of the complete RUBBISH you say about Jesus Christ not Dying for them!
Jesus Himself told those Jews who wanted to murder Him in John chapter 5
"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are NOT WILLING to come to Me so that you may have life" (John 5:39-40)
Jesus is very clear, that those who don't want to go to Him for their salvation, do so, because they are UNWILLING to! Showing that these lost sinners have a FREE WILL to REJECT the Gospel and Jesus Christ!
The Apostle Paul is also very clear, to those not BOUND by their "reformed" theology, WHY sinners are lost;
"9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because THEY DID NOT ACCEPT the love of the truth in order to be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned—those who DID NOT BELIEVE the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2)
Again, it is VERY CLEAR, that, because of their REJECTION of the TRUTH of the Gospel, and their UNBELIEF, and their PLEASURE in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, that damns them! Again, FREE WILL is very clearly taught here!
I believe what the BIBLE says, and NOT some human, UNBIBLICAL, theological system!
electedbyhim
Member
Correct.
Iconoclast
Member
Despite your meltdown, your post agrees with what I said.
You just try and insert your free will idol in it, That they were unwilling shows a will that is bound by sin.
All natural men reject Jesus.
The gospel message is not rubbish, but rather the power of God unto salvation. You are confused badly.
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SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
NO, I do NOT agree with your TWISTING of what the Bible says!
It is the UNBELIEF in REJECTING of the Gospel of salvation, that people go to hell, and NOT that Jesus did not Die for these!
Read the Lord's Supper account in Luke, where it is clear that Judas took the "bread and wine", representing the BODY and BLOOD of Jesus Christ for SIN on the cross! IF Jesus did not die for Judas, then He would have waited for him to have left the room to betray Him, and then given this Supper!
Even some honest "Reformed" commentators admit this TRUTH
On Luke 22:21
John Gill
From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over
Matthew Henry
By placing this after the institution of the Lord's supper, though in Matthew and Mark it is placed before it, it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. There have been those that have eaten bread with Christ and yet have betrayed him
A T Robertson
It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord’s Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order.
THIS is what the Bible teaches, and NOT what you believe!
Iconoclast
Member
So in your view,if a person never hears the gospel, they are not in danger of rejecting it, so they are okay???The cross is central in the bible.In heaven and earth saints thank God that the blood of Jesus applied to them Grant's entrance into life.There will not be people thanking themselves that they made a choice not to reject the gospel.
Iconoclast
Member
So as to not throw this thread off topic, I will start a fresh thread in the area known as Calvinism, with the purpose of taking apart you accusations of unbibllical theology, heresy, and whatever else you post to deflect away from solid biblical truths. I will do this based on your responses, and if the others who oppose the teaching of grace are welcome to come......whosoever will may come,
I know the two verses are not the same.
We're speaking of John 6:44 and John 12:32
One states that the Father draws
And the last states the the Son draws.
You touched on the solution when you posted that from the beginning the Father, Son and Holy Spirit planned on how to accomplish redemption.
Just to go a little more into the detail.
Every Person of the Trinity has their own work to do.
The Father draws persons and those that will choose to believe, will believe.
Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent,
Then the Father gives the person to Jesus and all those that the Father gives will in no way be cast out by Jesus.
John 6:37-40
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Jesus then sends the Holy Spirit to be our comforter, our helper, our paraclete.
John 15:16-17
16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
The Father draws.
The Son saves.
The Holy Spirit guides.
Iconoclast
Member
Yes, sound similar, but are very different. I will go into more detail in the Calvinism forum on the new thread examining such things. I will answer briefly here, with more to open up over there.
In JN6:37 First and most importantly....The Father gives a multitude that no man can number, to the Son. It is this element revealed here than demonstrates the COVENANT nature of this giving. It is not random, but eternally purposed....Then the idea of the effectual drawing...Those given, shall no doubt come, is what Jesus said. It is stated matter of factly, in fact Jesus strengthens it saying,
NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER THAT SENT ME, DRAW HIM.
This is why and where all reformed persons never depart from this basic truth. It explains the giving, the drawing, which results of the coming of believers to Jesus.
His finished work, preached worldwide is the basis for new birth and Kingdom growth
Salvation is a work of all three persons of the Godhead, that is why it is called in Heb. 2 so great salvation.
Yes, exactly. A Perfect Omniscient God reveals a perfect redemptive plan to the church Eph 3:9-11
The Father draws persons who were born in opposition and unwilling to come, by working in them by giving a new heart to be made willing to come to Jesus Psa110:3
The complete gospel is offered to all men everywhere.
No...this is inserting something that is not there. The giving by the Father does not rely upon the dead sinner doing something to cause God to give them. They are given to the Son as dead sinners who the Spirit will quicked to life, all follow Eph 2:1-4
Read the verses to yourself. Which scenerio fits what the verses say?
This is the result, more on the new thread
Well of course you're not going to agree.
This is where we part ways.
I gave you my scenario.
The Father draws ALL MEN TO HIMSELF.
John 3:16 but you claim it's descriptive and I can't argue this all day long.
Jesus does the saving, we agree.
The Holy Spirit,,,we agree.
Of course what we don't agree on is soteriology.
Based on Free Will and Total Depravity.
I dislike posting in the Calvinism Forum.
But tag me in and we'll see.
Happy New Year!