Sola Fide is Unbibical Error

[SolaScriptura]

Hi SS
Actually the John 3:16 destroys the U in TULIP.
Unconditional Election.
Which means that God chooses who will be saved based on no conditions, based on nothing at all - at least nothing we mortals can know. It's entirely up to God. No input from us.

The problem is that Calvinists believe that John 3:16 is speaking about those that are already saved.
It's descriptive.
Instead we believe that it's meant for everyone, the whole world, God would want that everyone be saved, but since there ARE conditions, not everyone will be.
This is prescriptive.
John 3:16 is the prescription for being saved...
NOT the description of those already saved.

The U in TULIP, is bound up with the TLI, so they either stand or fall together. John 3:16-18, and other passages show, that this is totally unbiblical, human teaching., opposed to the Inspired, Infallible, Word of God

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay

here is our text;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You agree All that are given come to Jesus. Not one is lost, but let's examine the next portion of the text that is addressed.

I agree that all that the Father gives to Jesus Goes to Jesus and they will not be cast out BY JESUS.
You said NO ONE IS LOST.....that I do NOT agree with.
Persons can become lost. Even Calvin said so.
But it's NOT GOD or Jesus that is casting them out....
they cast themselves out.
(of course, Calvin believed God casts them out).

A question might come up. Can anyone who was not given by the Father come to the Son??? vs. 44 says this;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus tells us;

The problem here Icon, as you well know, is that the Father draws EVERYONE.
First, the word DRAW has differing meanings in scripture. In some cases it means TO ATTRACT in some way, and in other cases it means TO FORCE. The difference between us is that you believe it always means TO FORCE because of irresitible grace. Which does not exist.

So, in some way God must FIRST DRAW a person to Himself before that person could believe.
God gives to everyone enough grace to know that God exists. The person may accept or deny.
If this were not true Romans 1:19....would make no sense at all.

John 16:8
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
The Holy Spirit will convict THE WORLD.....in some way everyone knows even though they may not be Christian, that they are doing wrong. The Holy Spirit convicts EVERYONE,,,,not just those that will become born again.

This drawing will not convict everyone - it is NOT effectual....
But you refuse to accept that God deals with THE WORLD and not only with calvinists - this is the problem.

God always makes the first move.
God draws everyone to Himself.
But not everyone will accept.

Paul says that God WOULD WANT everyone to be saved:
Is God not powerful enough?
Or does Paul mean something else?
1 Timothy 2:3-7
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2 Problems right here, but only for the reformed. For others no problem presents itself.

1. God desires all men to be saved.
2. Jesus gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL

1]All The Father gives shall come
2] No man can come unless the Father gives them

I agree and I've explained why.
The Father GIVES TO THE SON....
BUT
there are CONDITIONS. It is not UNCONDITIONAL.

The condition is that we accept the drawing.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

John 3:7
7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Acts 17:30
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,


Seems strange that God would COMMAND us to do something HE KNOWS we are unable to do.
Maybe God is commanding us to do something HE KNOWS we are ABLE TO DO?

This is why we say it is part of the Covenant of Redemption

I've said this before and you don't seem to understand that the reformed have their own titles for covenants.
I DON'T KNOW what the Covenant of Redemption is.

I know all the covenants but have never heard of that one because it's spoken of ONLY in reformed circles.
Surely you mean the New Covenant....but why should I assume?

There is no one that can be added or taken away .
The multitude is fixed or certain...we cannot add to it, none can be taken away. Jesus again explains it!

Where does scripture say this?
I've never heard of it.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
These are straightforward teachings.
Reformed people did not write it, be we all by God's grace believe it.

Reformed people wrote their own interpretation of the NT.
Many in the reformed movement have since left those teachings because they are not representative of either God or the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

The U in TULIP, is bound up with the TLI, so they either stand or fall together. John 3:16-18, and other passages show, that this is totally unbiblical, human teaching., opposed to the Inspired, Infallible, Word of God

Everything in TULIP is tied up with everything else -
which is why it's so difficult to discuss one topic (or one acronym) at a time.
Calvinism stands or falls on either Free Will or Total Depravity.
I go with Free Will.
No Free Will....man can do nothing, so God has to do everything for him.

 

[Iconoclast]

OK
We'll go thru it, with patience, as you've stated.
I do have one question first however....
Have you always been reformed?

As a new believer I did not know all the labels and groups. It was just me reading a bible. I never had any struggle with election and predestination as I read Eph1 I knew that it described God in total control..never questioned it. I did not even know people hate this teaching

When I post MY VERSION of verses, do you understand what I'm saying?
Do you know what I'm talking about?

yes I know what you mean because once I did learn about the controversy that some have with it, I tried to find the strongest positions against the teaching. I tested what I was learning with the strongest positions against it. Not to sound odd, but I could attack the position harded than the opponents.
For years I drove coast to coast in the USA, about 7000 mile12 days. I listened to hundreds of sermons by many speakers, well trained men. All of the major teaching is on the reformed side. All the solid historic confessions are reformed.

Will be back soon.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree that all that the Father gives to Jesus Goes to Jesus and they will not be cast out BY JESUS.

Okay, but I really believe it.

You said NO ONE IS LOST.....that I do NOT agree with.

I did not say it...Jesus did, and I believe Jesus. You said you believed, but now you do not....I will show you, do not get mad but take a look once again;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,
may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said of all, He loses none, two times he says they are raised to eternal life,So what you claim disagrees with Jesus.

Persons can become lost. Even Calvin said so.

Jesus said none of these is lost. the whole passage describes a Covenant salvation that is certain.

But it's NOT GOD or Jesus that is casting them out....
they cast themselves out.

This is not found in this passage, or honestly anywhere in the bible.
Speaking of elect sheep in Jn 10, Jesus says they never perish.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

(of course, Calvin believed God casts them out).

no one cares what Calvin said, start a thread on his teaching if you want

The problem here Icon, as you well know, is that the Father draws EVERYONE.

This does not say that the Father draws everyone. I showed you who are given, who are drawn, it does not say everyone.. You said you agree, but now show you do not.

First, the word DRAW has differing meanings in scripture.

This is complete rubbish. The text cannot be written any plainer. There are not many meanings in Jn 6. There is one clear meaning.

In some cases it means TO ATTRACT in some way, and in other cases it means TO FORCE. The difference between us is that you believe it always means TO FORCE because of irresitible grace. Which does not exist.

This is weak sad attempt to avoid what you have been clearly shown. But when you oppose the teaching of Jesus, it cannot end well for you.

So, in some way God must FIRST DRAW a person to Himself before that person could believe.

You can invent your own story all you want to.God does what He says, not your invented story.

God gives to everyone enough grace to know that God exists. The person may accept or deny.
If this were not true Romans 1:19....would make no sense at all.

Another verse you do not understand. It makes perfect sense to those who understand it.

John 16:8
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
The Holy Spirit will convict THE WORLD.....in some way everyone knows even though they may not be Christian, that they are doing wrong. The Holy Spirit convicts EVERYONE,,,,not just those that will become born again.

This drawing will not convict everyone - it is NOT effectual....
But you refuse to accept that God deals with THE WORLD and not only with calvinists - this is the problem.

God always makes the first move.
God draws everyone to Himself.
But not everyone will accept.

All nonsense and fantasy, you can have it.

Paul says that God WOULD WANT everyone to be saved:
Is God not powerful enough?
Or does Paul mean something else?
1 Timothy 2:3-7
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2 Problems right here, but only for the reformed. For others no problem presents itself.

1. God desires all men to be saved.
2. Jesus gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL

Until You want to be serious, I will treat your posting accordingly.

I agree and I've explained why.
The Father GIVES TO THE SON....
BUT
there are CONDITIONS. It is not UNCONDITIONAL.

The condition is that we accept the drawing.

Away with your man centered theology

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

John 3:7
7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Acts 17:30
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,


Seems strange that God would COMMAND us to do something HE KNOWS we are unable to do.
Maybe God is commanding us to do something HE KNOWS we are ABLE TO DO?

Keep your foolish philosophy

I've said this before and you don't seem to understand that the reformed have their own titles for covenants.
I DON'T KNOW what the Covenant of Redemption is.

I know you do not. Good luck to you

I know all the covenants but have never heard of that one because it's spoken of ONLY in reformed circles.
Surely you mean the New Covenant....but why should I assume?
Where does scripture say this?
I've never heard of it.
Reformed people wrote their own interpretation of the NT.
Many in the reformed movement have since left those teachings because they are not representative of either God or the NT.

You do not know what you are posting about. You oppose truth, your error will be exposed as error.