Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[Truthfrees]

Its the topic of this thread.
It’s happy if the list person repents and returns to Christ.
If not then they continue to be lost, and remain as sinners, separated from Christ.
James says save a soul from death.
A lost person whether never saved or a brother who is lost is the same; if they don’t repent -
Eternal death.

JLB

someone who turns away from the faith would be someone who never committed -

 

[JLB]

someone who turns away from the faith would be someone who never committed

So Paul is warning us by the Spirit, that in the last days some people who are not really saved will depart from the faith, that they don’t really have.


Brother, do you honestly believe that ?


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

So Paul is warning us by the Spirit, that in the last days some people who are not really saved will depart from the faith, that they don’t really have.

Brother, do you honestly believe that ?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

JLB

yes - that phrase can mean that church attenders who did not commit to God left the faith

 

[Truthfrees]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

"some" means people - it does not mean "born again believers"

 

[ezra]

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

in Corinthians he uses the phrase such as you were

 

[Walpole]

This is not about sheep getting lost. The parable says the sheep was lost, and then he was found. It doesn't say anything about becoming lost after being found.

So after finding his sheep, does the shepherd lose him again? No.

Psalm 23:1-3
23 The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want;
2 he makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters;[a]
3 he restores my soul.[b]
He leads me in paths of righteousness[c]
for his name’s sake.

I'm not sure how you can say the parable is not about sheep getting lost. Here it is again...

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Having = possessing

Loses = to come to be without something that was previously in one's possession or care

 

[JLB]

yes - that phrase can mean that church attenders who did not commit to God left the faith - just like people dating can break up even though they were never married - they were both dabbling without making commitment - and before they made a commitment they left/fell away/departed/broke up/etc

someone who is not married will depart from their marriage?


Someone who is not really saved, will depart from the faith, by which they are saved?


Here is the definition of “the faith”.


Our common faith in Jesus Christ.


Scripture teaches we are in a common “household of faith” as family.


Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:10



Scripture texts -


Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 1:3




Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:5



There is no mention of people attending Church.


You are creating a narrative that doesn’t exist in the scripture we are discussing.


Paul is using a term that was common to him and others in the first century.


The term “the faith” refers to those within the faith of Jesus Christ, and its all its uses doesn’t refer to people who attend Church who may or may not be saved.


If a person is in the faith, our common faith in Christ, a part of the household of faith, then later on the give heed to doctrines of demons, by which the depart from the faith, (by transgressing the doctrine of Christ) then they have departed from the common salvation through faith in Christ.


Depart from means to desert, or withdraw from.

A person in the army who deserts the army, has willing revolted and withdraw himself from the army.


Strong’s Definitions
ἀφίστημι aphístēmi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575and G2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 15x
The KJV translates Strong's G868 in the following manner: depart (10x), draw away (1x), fall away (1x), refrain (1x), withdraw self (1x), depart from (1x).


This doesn’t refer to people who were never in the faith.


If a person does not continue this n the the faith, how can they still have salvation through faith?


strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22


again


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


We are called to continue in the faith.




JLB

 

[JLB]

in Corinthians he uses the phrase such as you were

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul tells them, just as he told them in the past, which means Paul had to continually deal with the subject and warn them over and over about practicing the works of the flesh, which simply means to sin.


Christians who have the Holy Spirit, who are admonished and exhorted to walk in the Spirit, so that they will not fulfill the lustful desires of their flesh, must heed the truth or they (I, you, we) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

In Romans, he says it this way -


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13




JLB

 

[JLB]

This is not about sheep getting lost. The parable says the sheep was lost, and then he was found. It doesn't say anything about becoming lost after being found.

So after finding his sheep, does the shepherd lose him again? No.

Psalm 23:1-3
23 The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want;
2 he makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters;[a]
3 he restores my soul.[b]
He leads me in paths of righteousness[c]
for his name’s sake.

Yes he leads us in the paths of righteousness.


If we choose to wander away from Him, as He is leading us in the paths of righteousness, then we have chosen to go on another way, and another path, and we will become lost, like the sheep and the prodigal son.


There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
Proverbs 14:12





JLB

 

[JLB]

yes - that phrase can mean that church attenders who did not commit to Jesus left the faith - just like people dating can break up even though they were never married - they were both dabbling without making commitment - and before they made a commitment they left/fell away/departed/broke up/etc

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


some will depart from the faith


This was caused by a doctrine of demons.

These folks believed and gave heed to a doctrine of demons that caused them to depart from the faith.



That is what the scripture plainly teaches.


The faith, refers to our common faith in Christ Jesus.


People who are not in the faith, are not a part of the common salvation of the saints.


These folks who are not in the faith, are not affected adversely by a doctrine of demons because the are not in the faith in the first place.


Only someone who is in the faith, can depart from the faith.




JLB

 

[JLB]

"some" means people - it does not mean "born again believers"

Brother, you are creating a narrative within the scripture that does not exist.


“Some” plainly and undeniably refers to those who depart from, the faith.


“Church attendees” is not in the narrative and didn’t even exist when Paul wrote this.

You are taking a post modern mindset together with a preconceived idea and interjecting it into the scripture.


We are to reason from the scriptures and the truth of what the scriptures say.

This is how we renew our mind with the truth.


Let’s start by defining the words of the passage that are key.

• Depart from

• The faith

Would you care to define these two key phrases from the scriptures and context?



JLB

 

[Walpole]

Help me understand something...

If we are free to choose faith and be faithful, why then are we not free to abandon / depart from the faith and cease to be faithful? Do we become automaton-type creatures the moment we accept faith?

Those who contend sheep cannot be lost are implicitly arguing this.

 

[MarkT]

I'm not sure how you can say the parable is not about sheep getting lost. Here it is again...

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Having = possessing

Loses = to come to be without something that was previously in one's possession or care

The parable says the sheep was lost. Then it is found. Does the sheep become lost after it is found? No. Once the lost sheep is found, there is rejoicing.

 

[WIP]

The parable says the sheep was lost. Then it is found. Does the sheep become lost after it is found? No. Once the lost sheep is found, there is rejoicing.

The parable also says the sheep was possessed by the man prior to being lost. How does one become lost after being possessed?

 

[JLB]

The parable says the sheep was lost. Then it is found. Does the sheep become lost after it is found? No. Once the lost sheep is found, there is rejoicing.

Yes, thank God we can rejoice over those wayward souls, when they repent and return to God.


I think we all agree on that point.


What we are asking you to consider, is the fact that one of the 100 sheep that belong to the Shepherd can In fact, wander away and become lost.


The definition of lost doesn’t change when it involves His sheep.


In fact, someone or something can not actually be lost unless it is possessed or owned by the person who lost it.

The next parable illustrates this. The lost coin.


The lost need salvation.



JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

being lost is not the same as losing salvation

 

[JLB]

1. what happens to a person when they get born again? - does the Holy Spirit come to live in the person and seal them?

The Holy Spirit is the seal; God’s seal of authenticity on those who believe.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13


The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe.


Those who believe for a while, then later, no longer believe are no longer believers.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



I fing no scriptures that say that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who don’t believe any longer.



JLB

 

[JLB]

2. if a person who has the Holy Spirit living in them COULD leave the faith what happens? - does the Holy Spirit keep living in and sealing that person? - or does HE leave? - what happens if the Holy Spirit leaves

If a person does not continue in the faith because they departed from the faith, then they no longer have faith in Christ for salvation.


I find no scriptures that say those who do not have faith in Christ any longer still have the Holy Spirit.




JLB

 

[JLB]

3. if such a person can then come back to faith what happens then? - does the Holy Spirit then come back and live in the person and seal them again?

It depends on if they departed from the faith by renouncing Christ Jesus as a false prophet and returned to Judaism or confessed Allah as lord.


If they did that then no.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6




JLB

 

[ezra]

being lost is not the same as losing salvation

this has been my dilemma on this issue the parable of the lost sheep does not specifically state lose of salvation
Parable of the Lost Sheep
12 “If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, what will he do? Won’t he leave the ninety-nine others on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he will rejoice over it more than over the ninety-nine that didn’t wander away! 14 In the same way, it is not my heavenly Father’s will that even one of these little ones should perish.

this is nlt not a fan of it just did google search pasted it . i also want to state by no means do i support a teaching saying no matter what i will never go to hell. IMO that is saying ok so i can live my old life style and not have to worry.. That is not scripture paul wrote to take the old man off put on the new man
Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
this is a every day task we do this just like getting dressed we take off our dirty clothes clan up put on new clothes .

we are secure in him-- maybe this might back up the theory of not ever being saved ..
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
i just cant go with the parable saying lost salvation ..imo the sheep wanders from the flock .. in this day and age it is easy to wander off . i have had many pinpoint the exact time you become lost again . i have also read in times past that God no longer see our sins after salvation.. i disagree with that.. he tells us to repent .
o will be far to both sides Jesus did say unless we repent we shall perish .i bank very heavy on 1 john 1:9 .
the conviction of the spirit should be strong when going astray .

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
the question will never be answered down here ..i had rather leave this life knowing i was trying to live right .