Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[Senior]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;
but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

They were not of God, never were.

Just because some believers leave an assembly
(for whatever reason) means they were never believers???
This has never made any sense to me.
Have you ever left a church and gone elsewhere?
Not only that, but this was a one-time occurrence.

 

[JLB]

Why would Jesus say you have to be born again? I think it's because believers can fall away. So a man can fall away. On the other hand, if a man is born again, he is not just a believer, he is a believer who has been saved by God himself. If God saves a man, he is indeed saved, and no one can snatch him from the hand of God.

So there's the presumption that a man can be saved and not saved. But this is illogical. You can't be both.

Since this is a controversial subject, let’s use scripture as our basis for discussion.


Do you understand that His sheep, can indeed become lost?


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’




JLB

 

[JLB]

Just because some believers leave an assembly
(for whatever reason) means they were never believers???
This has never made any sense to me.
Have you ever left a church and gone elsewhere?
Not only that, but this was a one-time occurrence.

 

[JLB]

Good old calvinistic docrine.

Yes sir, that is what he believes and teaches.



JLB

 

[JLB]

kept by the power of God

Through faith...

 

[Senior]

kept by the power of God
Through faith...

But, we need to understand what true saving faith really is!
Believe it or not, the NT teaches us that ...
True saving faith = enduring deep heart belief
+ enduring trust + enduring obedience

 

[ezra]

Good old calvinistic docrine.

that aint calvinistic docrine. that is scripture

 

[JLB]

But, we need to understand what true saving faith really is!
Believe it or not, the NT teaches us that ...
True saving faith = enduring deep heart belief
+ enduring trust + enduring obedience

Saving faith is obedient faith.

Love is expressed in obedience.

Saving faith = faith that expresses itself by love.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6



And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:2






JLB

 

[MarkT]

Just because some believers leave an assembly
(for whatever reason) means they were never believers???
This has never made any sense to me.
Have you ever left a church and gone elsewhere?
Not only that, but this was a one-time occurrence.

You have to read it in context.

John is saying antichrists have come, meaning they have come into the church. But then he says they have gone out from us, but they were not of us, meaning they were false, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us.

The antichrist is he who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
1 John 4:3
and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

The point is they were never of God.

 

[MarkT]

Since this is a controversial subject, let’s use scripture as our basis for discussion.


Do you understand that His sheep, can indeed become lost?


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’




JLB

His sheep don't become lost after they are found.

His sheep were lost in this world. Then they are found. Then there is rejoicing in heaven.

 

[JLB]

His sheep don't become lost after they are found.

His sheep were lost in this world. Then they are found. Then there is rejoicing in heaven.

First we must understand from the scriptures, that the context shows that it is His sheep that became lost.

Notice the language of the scriptures.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The sheep who wanders away and becomes lost has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.


The ninety nine are said to be just; justified


The next parable of the lost coin, illustrates this same truth.


“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:8-10


Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’


IOW, someone can only lose, that which he owns; That which is His.


I can’t lose something that belongs to someone else, because it’s not mine.


I have to possess something first, before it can become lost.




JLB

 

[JLB]

You have to read it in context.

John is saying antichrists have come, meaning they have come into the church. But then he says they have gone out from us, but they were not of us, meaning they were false, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us.

The antichrist is he who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
1 John 4:3
and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

The point is they were never of God.

Obviously the discussion is not about those who were never saved.

There are those that will hear these words -

Depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I never
knew you.


These are imposters. They never knew Him.


There are tares then there are wheat.


Tares are the sons of the wicked one, they will never be saved.


He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Matthew 13:37-39

• The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

We are discussing God’s people, sons of the kingdom, born again Christians who will end up becoming lost and not inheriting the kingdom.


Why introduce a scripture concerning what you believe to be about unbelievers who were never saved, into a discussion about people who are saved but may have become lost.


Here is just one of many -


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews3:12-14

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Do you believe a person can depart from Christ and still be saved?




JLB

 

[MarkT]

First we must understand from the scriptures, that the context shows that it is His sheep that became lost.

Notice the language of the scriptures.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The sheep who wanders away and becomes lost has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.


The ninety nine are said to be just; justified


The next parable of the lost coin, illustrates this same truth.


“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:8-10


Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’


IOW, someone can only lose, that which he owns; That which is His.


I can’t lose something that belongs to someone else, because it’s not mine.


I have to possess something first, before it can become lost.




JLB

They were his sheep (lost in the world) and Jesus was sent to find them.
Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

When he finds them, he doesn't lose them again.
John 6:39
and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

 

[MarkT]

Obviously the discussion is not about those who were never saved.

There are those that will hear these words -

Depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I never
knew you.


These are imposters. They never knew Him.


There are tares then there are wheat.


Tares are the sons of the wicked one, they will never be saved.


He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Matthew 13:37-39

• The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

We are discussing God’s people, sons of the kingdom, born again Christians who will end up becoming lost and not inheriting the kingdom.


Why introduce a scripture concerning what you believe to be about unbelievers who were never saved, into a discussion about people who are saved but may have become lost.


Here is just one of many -


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews3:12-14

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Do you believe a person can depart from Christ and still be saved?




JLB

I believe a person can fall into unbelief if he has an evil unbelieving heart, though I would question whether the person with the unbelieving heart was ever saved in the first place.

 

[JLB]

They were his sheep (lost in the world) and Jesus was sent to find them.

The 100 sheep were gathered out of the world and were His.


One of His sheep, wandered away and became lost.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

Brother, please refer to the actual scripture, and what is said.


Jesus is teaching His disciples, what to do if one of His sheep wander away and become lost.


James, the Lord’s brother, says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth

• someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner

• will save a soul from death

Same principle of truth.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe a person can fall into unbelief if he has an evil unbelieving heart, though I would question whether the person with the unbelieving heart was ever saved in the first place.

You don’t have to question anything.

You only need to believe what is written.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• departing from the living God
• lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
• if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

How can you depart from Christ, if you were never joined to Him?


Do you understand the context, in which this warning was given?


The Church was being persecuted by unbelieving Jews, to turn them back to Judaism.


Jesus taught this principle to His disciples.



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.
• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe = Saved




JLB

 

[MarkT]

The 100 sheep were gathered out of the world and were His.


One of His sheep, wandered away and became lost.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

Brother, please refer to the actual scripture, and what is said.


Jesus is teaching His disciples, what to do if one of His sheep wander away and become lost.


James, the Lord’s brother, says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth

• someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner

• will save a soul from death

Same principle of truth.



JLB

James doesn't say anything about the Shepherd who finds his sheep. Like I said, Jesus was sent to find the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

His sheep were lost in this world because they were not of this world. The world treated them badly. Poor in spirit, they had no hope.
Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Their shepherds were false.
Jeremiah 23:1
“Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!” says the Lord.

Then they hear the Shepherd's voice and they follow him.

In context James is about wandering from the truth and bringing back a sinner from the error of his way. This is more about instruction in the way and how we should live. re. faith and judgement and doing the will of God.

First James gives us instruction. 'Be doers of the word'. James 1:22 Then he says if any one wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, he will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

I take it the brother is not doing what is right.

 

[Senior]

John is saying antichrists have come, meaning they have come into the church.
But then he says they have gone out from us, but they were not of us, meaning
they were false, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us.
... The point is they were never of God.

I've heard this before, and no doubt you are correct.

 

[Senior]

Do you believe a person can depart from Christ and still be saved?

Yes, absolutely, IF he/she sincerely repents and returns to Him.
Many have done (and will do) even on their death bed.

 

[JLB]

I believe a person can fall into unbelief if he has an evil unbelieving heart, though I would question whether the person with the unbelieving heart was ever saved in the first place.

You don’t have to question anything.

You only need to believe what is written.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


departing from the living God

lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,



How can you depart from Christ, if you were never joined to Him?


Do you understand the context, in which this warning was given?


The Church was being persecuted by unbelieving Jews, to turn them back to Judaism.


Jesus taught this principle to His disciples.

James doesn't say anything about the Shepherd who finds his sheep. Like I said, Jesus was sent to find the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes we all know Jesus was sent to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.


Like I said, it’s about Jesus teaching His disciples what to do after He has returned to heaven and they are to continue to preach the gospel and make disciples.

He is them and is what to do if one of the sheep becomes lost.


James says the same thing using the same language.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is as a sinner, in need of repentance.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

James refers to a brother who wanders from the truth, and is a sinner.


He must repent, turn back to Christ and become reconciled or remain in a lost state.


Do you understand that the lost need to be saved?


We are saved by repenting, turning to God and submitting to His Lordship.



JLB