Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[JLB]

Yes, absolutely, IF he/she sincerely repents and returns to Him.
Many have done (and will do) even on their death bed.

I understand what you are saying here and I agree.


However my question is can a person depart from Christ and still be saved (while they are separated from Him)?


The answer is no.


The context in Hebrews is different than what you are saying.


You are referring to a person who is backslidden returning to Christ in repentance.

Again, I agree with you. They will be restored.


The verse I quoted in Hebrews is a different context.


The whole book of Hebrews is revealing who Christ is; The Lord God. The Messiah. The High Priest.


Not just a man who claims to be the messiah, or a false prophet as Judaism claims.

That how unbelieving Jews were getting Jewish believers to convert back to Judaism, by claiming Jesus was a false prophet and persecution.


These Jewish Christians were persuaded to renounce Jesus as a false prophet, and return to Judaism while under persecution.


That’s the context of Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 6 as well as Hebrews 10.


This come from Jesus teaching about the parable of the Sower.

“Fall away” is the same Greek word as “depart from”.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


This is about turning away from Christ while under persecution.


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13


Matthew 24:13, Matthew 13:20-21, Luke 8:13,
and Hebrews 3:12-14 are all saying the same thing.





JLB

 

[chessman]

How can you depart from Christ, if you were never joined to Him?

The same way this author’s Hebrew brothers’ fathers had done-by rejecting God within their hardened hearts, just as the Holy Spirit says happens to unbelievers:

Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “ Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness , Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me, And saw My works for forty years . “ Therefore I was angry with this generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart , And they did not know My ways ’; As I swore in My wrath, ‘ They shall not enter My rest .’”​

Hebrews 3:7-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:7-11&version=NASB

 

[JLB]

The same way this author’s Hebrew brothers’ fathers had done-by rejecting God within their hardened hearts, just as the Holy Spirit says happens to unbelievers:

Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “ Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness , Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me, And saw My works for forty years . “ Therefore I was angry with this generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart , And they did not know My ways ’; As I swore in My wrath, ‘ They shall not enter My rest .’”​

Hebrews 3:7-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:7-11&version=NASB

Sorry bro,


Those who depart from Christ are no longer saved.


We must continue in the faith to the end.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who depart from Christ are no longer saved.

The example of those spoken of in Hebrews 3:12 doesn’t say anything about their once being saved (or not). You have assumed this position for the author. The author calls out some of his Hebrew brothers as having unbelieving hearts, evil hearts.

 

[JLB]

The example of those spoken of in Hebrews 3:12 doesn’t say anything about their once being saved (or not). You have assumed this position for the author. The author calls out some of his Hebrew brothers as having unbelieving hearts, evil hearts.

I plainly read what the author said.

Depart from the living God.

How can a person depart from a garage they were never “in”?



JLB

 

[Senior]

Those who depart from Christ are no longer saved.
We must continue in the faith to the end.

Absolutely, bro, and maybe we need to present the page
full of ENDURANCE verses from the NT ... for all to see.

And, they're NOT about ...
enduring to look nice, enduring to get rewards, or whatever.

NO, they're about enduring to be saved!

 

[chessman]

How can a person depart from a garage they were never “in”?

The same way a robber who walks up to closed and locked garage door departs from it and goes on down the road until he enters one that’s unlocked, opens it and actually enters into the garage.

So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​

Hebrews 3:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:19&version=NASB

Did these Hebrews enter into His rest or were they unable to enter into His rest (like a robber is unable to enter a locked door)?

 

[MarkT]

You don’t have to question anything.

You only need to believe what is written.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


departing from the living God

lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,



How can you depart from Christ, if you were never joined to Him?


Do you understand the context, in which this warning was given?


The Church was being persecuted by unbelieving Jews, to turn them back to Judaism.


Jesus taught this principle to His disciples.


Yes we all know Jesus was sent to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.


Like I said, it’s about Jesus teaching His disciples what to do after He has returned to heaven and they are to continue to preach the gospel and make disciples.

He is them and is what to do if one of the sheep becomes lost.


James says the same thing using the same language.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is as a sinner, in need of repentance.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

James refers to a brother who wanders from the truth, and is a sinner.


He must repent, turn back to Christ and become reconciled or remain in a lost state.


Do you understand that the lost need to be saved?


We are saved by repenting, turning to God and submitting to His Lordship.



JLB

It's not the same language. Lost means the sheep have lost their way. They don't have a shepherd.

Wanders from the truth means the brother isn't obeying the truth. Perhaps the brother is living in sin, sowing to the flesh, or something like that.

 

[MarkT]

Sorry bro,


Those who depart from Christ are no longer saved.


We must continue in the faith to the end.



JLB

Or perhaps they were never saved in the first place, which explains why many have fallen away.
Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.

 

[JLB]

Wanders from the truth means the brother isn't obeying the truth. Perhaps the brother is living in sin, sowing to the flesh, or something like that.

Exactly.

That brother needs “someone” to turn him back in order to save his soul from death.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Or perhaps they were never saved in the first place, which explains why many have fallen away.
Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.

Fall away refers to a saved person departing from Christ.

Not believing or enduring to the end.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13




JLB

 

[MarkT]

Fall away refers to a saved person departing from Christ.

Not believing or enduring to the end.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13




JLB

 

[MarkT]

Since this is a controversial subject, let’s use scripture as our basis for discussion.


Do you understand that His sheep, can indeed become lost?


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’




JLB

The man had a hundred sheep but one became lost, so the man left the 99 to search for the sheep who was lost.

This is about the love the shepherd has for his sheep, especially the ones who need him. ie. sinners.

So there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.

 

[MarkT]

Fall away refers to a saved person departing from Christ.

Not believing or enduring to the end.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13




JLB

If a person has to endure to the end to be saved, then how can he be saved if he falls away before the end?

How can you say 'Fall away refers to a saved person departing from Christ.' if he isn't saved?

 

[JLB]

The man had a hundred sheep but one became lost, so the man left the 99 to search for the sheep who was lost.

These are instructions for His disciples.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? Luke 15:4


Jesus is describing what His disciples are to do, about sheep who have wandered away and become lost.


He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”

He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”

He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” John 21:16



Jesus is in Heaven.

Jesus has finished His ministry on earth, in which His Spirit now dwells in us, for us to do the works that He did.

• “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17
Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:

1. “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

JLB

 

[JLB]

If a person has to endure to the end to be saved, then how can he be saved if he falls away before the end?

How can you say 'Fall away refers to a saved person departing from Christ.' if he isn't saved?

That’s just it, he is saved.


Only a saved person can “fall away” ; depart from Christ, under persecution.


Do you understand that the reason they are persecuted is because they are Christians?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If a person has to endure to the end to be saved, then how can he be saved if he falls away before the end?

Endure and believe are used interchangeably in this teaching.


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• endures only for a while

• believe for a while

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13





JLB

 

[Senior]

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

It is not recommended to use this verse re: eternal salvation
because the context is regarding surviving physically ...
even though it does actually apply to both.

I suggest using it after presenting 15 other NT verses,
which warn about enduring to the end of one's life,
if that person intends to be granted eternal life.
In that way, it is used as a confirmation of the other verses.

 

[MarkT]

That’s just it, he is saved.


Only a saved person can “fall away” ; depart from Christ, under persecution.


Do you understand that the reason they are persecuted is because they are Christians?



JLB

To fall away is to stop following him. Jesus had many followers. They all fell away except for the 12.
John 6:66-68 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;

 

[JLB]

To fall away is to stop following him. Jesus had many followers. They all fell away except for the 12.

The context of Luke 8:13 and the original word used means to willfully depart or desert, while being persecuted.

IOW renouncing Jesusas Lord.


This theme is seen in Matthew 13:20-22, Matthew 24:13 and Hebrews 3:12-14 as well.



Strong’s Definitions
ἀφίστημι aphístēmi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575and G2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 15x
The KJV translates Strong's G868 in the following manner: depart (10x), draw away (1x), fall away (1x), refrain (1x), withdraw self (1x), depart from (1x).


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6


This word fall away is similar.


Strong’s Definitions
παραπίπτω parapíptō, par-ap-ip'-to; from G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize:—fall away.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 1x
The KJV translates Strong's G3895 in the following manner: fall away (1x).

JLB