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Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

chessman said:
The same way a robber who walks up to closed and locked garage door departs from it and goes on down the road until he enters one that’s unlocked, opens it and actually enters into the garage.

So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​
Hebrews 3:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:19&version=NASB

Did these ⬆️ Hebrews enter into His rest or were they unable to enter into His rest (like a robber is unable to enter a locked door)?
Click to expand...


So Christ is somehow “locked” for some people?


Sounds like Calvinism to me.


The author is exhorting brothers to continue in the faith to the end.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14




JLB
 
chessman said:
Did these ⬆️ Hebrews enter into His rest or were they unable to enter into His rest (like a robber is unable to enter a locked door)?
Click to expand...


Unfortunately your overlooking your own point in your attempt to creat a narrative that doesn’t exist.


The children of Israel that this refers to, that didn’t enter the promised land because of unbelief, had already been delivered from Egypt, and had been baptized into Moses, in the cloud and in the sea, meaning they were already “saved”.


The unbelief refers to a born again Christ who no longer believes during persecution and departs from Christ in unbelief.


Thanks for making my point.




JLB
 
JLB said:
The context of Luke 8:13 and the original word used means to willfully depart or desert, while being persecuted.

IOW renouncing Jesusas Lord.


This theme is seen in Matthew 13:20-22, Matthew 24:13 and Hebrews 3:12-14 as well.



Strong’s Definitions
ἀφίστημι aphístēmi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575and G2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 15x
The KJV translates Strong's G868 in the following manner: depart (10x), draw away (1x), fall away (1x), refrain (1x), withdraw self (1x), depart from (1x).


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6


This word fall away is similar.


Strong’s Definitions
παραπίπτω parapíptō, par-ap-ip'-to; from G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize:—fall away.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 1x
The KJV translates Strong's G3895 in the following manner: fall away (1x).

JLB
Click to expand...

To fall away is to abandon, to depart from, to go away from, to draw back as in 'After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.' John 6: 60

IOW they didn't stick with him.

They were certainly not saved. So how can you say only a saved person can 'fall away'? People fall away. Even Peter denied he was a follower. So it would be better to say only followers can fall away.
 
JLB said:
The children of Israel that this refers to, that didn’t enter the promised land because of unbelief, had already been delivered from Egypt, and had been baptized into Moses, in the cloud and in the sea, meaning they were already “saved”.
Click to expand...
So even though the Text literally says they were unbelievers, your ‘meaning’ is they were saved. Got it! Thanks for explaining how you’d classify this passage as one indicating loss of salvation.

BTW, have you ever been to Egypt and crossed through the Red Sea, if that’s what it takes to be saved?
 
MarkT said:
To fall away is to abandon, to depart from, to go away from, to draw back as in 'After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.' John 6: 60

IOW they didn't stick with him.

They were certainly not saved. So how can you say only a saved person can 'fall away'? People fall away. Even Peter denied he was a follower. So it would be better to say only followers can fall away.
Click to expand...


Ok. Maybe I don’t understand your position on salvation.


Is a person saved, when they believe?




JLB
 
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chessman said:
So even though the Text literally says they were unbelievers,
Click to expand...


Please post the scripture you are referring to.

The text we have been discussing doesn’t use the phrase
“unbelievers”.

Besides, someone who does believe then no longer believes,
is a person who un-believes.


a person who is un-connected can either be someone who has never connected, or a person who is was once connected, but later they became un-connected.


The context dictates the meaning.



JLB
 
Last edited:
chessman said:
I did.
Click to expand...


The word “unbeliever” does not appear in your text.


Besides, someone who does believe then no longer believes,
is a person who un-believes.


a person who is un-connected can either be someone who has never connected, or a person who is was once connected, but later they became un-connected.


The context dictates the meaning.




JLB
 
JLB said:
Ok. Maybe I don’t understand your position on salvation.


Is a person saved, when they believe?




JLB
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Jesus said many will fall away. So a person isn't necessarily saved when he first believes. He has to be taught the word of God, and he has to be born again and he has to receive the Spirit. And he has to continue in his word.

John 8:31
Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
 
MarkT said:
Not necessarily. Jesus said many will fall away. So a person isn't necessarily saved when he first believes. He has to be taught the word of God, and he has to be born again and he has to receive the Spirit. And he has to continue in his word.
Click to expand...


I think we may agree on some things, however, I would like to discuss, your answer further.


When I use the term saved, I mean born again, regenerated, justified: Made righteous


4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7


So to be clear about what you and I are referring, I will ask the question another way.


Is a person born again, regenerated, justified, when they believe the Gospel message?


If not, what more does a person need to do, to be saved, born again, justified?




JLB
 
MarkT said:
So a person isn't necessarily saved when he first believes. He has to be taught the word of God, and he has to be born again and he has to receive the Spirit. And he has to continue in his word.
Click to expand...
where you get that from?
 
JLB said:
I think we may agree on some things, however, I would like to discuss, your answer further.


When I use the term saved, I mean born again, regenerated, justified: Made righteous


4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7


So to be clear about what you and I are referring, I will ask the question another way.


Is a person born again, regenerated, justified, when they believe the Gospel message?


If not, what more does a person need to do, to be saved, born again, justified?




JLB
Click to expand...

When we were headed for the pit, God saved us. When we were still sinners, he rescued us. So in the context of Titus, what we were before our Lord appeared and what he did by his appearing, it's quite appropriate to say God our Savior saved us.

It's also appropriate in other contexts to say, "we will be saved"meaning when he returns, and "we are being saved"meaning we are being conformed to the Lord.

Yes those things are associated with salvation. But I believe God saves men and God's salvation is everlasting. Yet many will fall away, and not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved. My guess is the many are following false teachers or they're not reading the Bible or they just do not understand.

They will call him Lord. Were they ever saved? Jesus will say, 'I never knew' you suggesting they were never saved.

He never made his home with them, meaning his words never entered into their hearts.

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

So I tell people to read the Bible. Keep his words in your hearts. Be attentive to instruction. That way both the Father and the Son will make their home with you. And stay away from sin.
 
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MarkT said:
Yes those things are associated with salvation. But I believe God saves men and God's salvation is everlasting. Yet many will fall away, and not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved. My guess is the many are following false teachers or they're not reading the Bible or they just do not understand.
Click to expand...
this part has been debated for ages and has yet to be resolved , i am on the fence on those who seem to no longer acknowledge God in any way shape or form . i have no authority to judge them going to heaven or hell. i do good taking care of my self and i think if everyone would be honest.they are the same way on taking care of them.i often think of the scripture Christ said why call me LORD LORD and do not the things i say. i also realize were not going to dot every I or cross every T all the time .

we will have failures and through them we learn . my last thought of this week was were so busy talking but not listening and doing . american churches needs evangelized rekindle the far with in us...who is the church? we are the Body of Christ casting crowns has a song if we are the Body
It's crowded in worship today
As she slips in
Trying to fade into the faces
The girl's teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know
Farther than they know

CHORUS
But if we are the body
Why aren't his arms reaching
Why aren't his hands healing
Why aren't his words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't his feet going
Why is his love not showing them there is a way
There is a way

A traveler is far away from home
He sheds his coat
And quietly sinks into the back row
The weight of their judgmental glances tell him that his chances
Are better out on the road

CHORUS
But if we are the body
Why aren't his arms reaching
Why aren't his hands healing
Why aren't his words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't his feet going
Why is his love not showing them there is a way

Jesus paid much too high a price
for us to pick and choose who should come
and we are the body of Christ

Chorus (2x)
But if we are the body
Why aren't his arms reaching
Why aren't his hands healing
Why aren't his words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't his feet going
Why is his love not showing them there is a way

Jesus is the way
 
ezra said:
this part has been debated for ages and has yet to be resolved , i am on the fence on those who seem to no longer acknowledge God in any way shape or form . i have no authority to judge them going to heaven or hell. i do good taking care of my self and i think if everyone would be honest.they are the same way on taking care of them.i often think of the scripture Christ said why call me LORD LORD and do not the things i say. i also realize were not going to dot every I or cross every T all the time .

we will have failures and through them we learn . my last thought of this week was were so busy talking but not listening and doing . american churches needs evangelized rekindle the far with in us...who is the church? we are the Body of Christ casting crowns has a song if we are the Body
It's crowded in worship today
As she slips in
Trying to fade into the faces
The girl's teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know
Farther than they know

CHORUS
But if we are the body
Why aren't his arms reaching
Why aren't his hands healing
Why aren't his words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't his feet going
Why is his love not showing them there is a way
There is a way

A traveler is far away from home
He sheds his coat
And quietly sinks into the back row
The weight of their judgmental glances tell him that his chances
Are better out on the road

CHORUS
But if we are the body
Why aren't his arms reaching
Why aren't his hands healing
Why aren't his words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't his feet going
Why is his love not showing them there is a way

Jesus paid much too high a price
for us to pick and choose who should come
and we are the body of Christ

Chorus (2x)
But if we are the body
Why aren't his arms reaching
Why aren't his hands healing
Why aren't his words teaching
And if we are the body
Why aren't his feet going
Why is his love not showing them there is a way

Jesus is the way
Click to expand...


I agree.
 
MarkT said:
It's also appropriate in other contexts to say, "we will be saved"meaning when he returns, and "we are being saved"meaning we are being conformed to the Lord.
Click to expand...


I couldn’t agree more.



JLB
 
MarkT said:
When we were headed for the pit, God saved us. When we were still sinners, he rescued us. So in the context of Titus, what we were before our Lord appeared and what he did by his appearing, it's quite appropriate to say God our Savior saved us.

It's also appropriate in other contexts to say, "we will be saved"meaning when he returns, and "we are being saved"meaning we are being conformed to the Lord.

Yes those things are associated with salvation. But I believe God saves men and God's salvation is everlasting. Yet many will fall away, and not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved. My guess is the many are following false teachers or they're not reading the Bible or they just do not understand.

They will call him Lord. Were they ever saved? Jesus will say, 'I never knew' you suggesting they were never saved.

He never made his home with them, meaning his words never entered into their hearts.

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

So I tell people to read the Bible. Keep his words in your hearts. Be attentive to instruction. That way both the Father and the Son will make their home with you. And stay away from sin.
Click to expand...


So you’ll agree, when we believe we are saved?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


And if we no longer believe, we are no longer saved.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.





JLB
 
JLB said:
Are we justified when we are baptized into Christ?
Click to expand...
When we are baptized through His Spirit, yes.

For this One has been considered-worthy of more glory than Moses— to the degree that the One having built the house has more honor than the house.​
Hebrews 3:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:3&version=DLNT

For who having heard rebelled? But was it not all the ones having come out of Egypt through Moses?​
Hebrews 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:16&version=DLNT

When they were baptized through coming out of Egypt and through the Red Sea by following Moses, no.

It was as the inspired author of Hebrews noted, people trying to follow Moses “are always going-astray in the heart” because they do not know Christ’s ways. They were/are unbelievers (not a believer) in the Way of Christ.

And to whom did He swear that they will not enter into His rest, except to the ones having disobeyed? And we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​
Hebrews 3:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:18-19&version=DLNT

Were these ⬆ people described by the author of Hebrews as being either born again, regenerated, or justified?
 
chessman said:
When we are baptized through His Spirit, yes.

For this One has been considered-worthy of more glory than Moses— to the degree that the One having built the house has more honor than the house.​
Hebrews 3:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:3&version=DLNT

For who having heard rebelled? But was it not all the ones having come out of Egypt through Moses?​
Hebrews 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:16&version=DLNT

When they were baptized through coming out of Egypt and through the Red Sea by following Moses, no.

It was as the inspired author of Hebrews noted, people trying to follow Moses “are always going-astray in the heart” because they do not know Christ’s ways. They were/are unbelievers (not a believer) in the Way of Christ.

And to whom did He swear that they will not enter into His rest, except to the ones having disobeyed? And we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​
Hebrews 3:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 3:18-19&version=DLNT

Were these ⬆ people described by the author of Hebrews as being either born again, regenerated, or justified?
Click to expand...


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Corinthians 10:1-12


  • For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

  • Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.



So here’s the question for you.


If born again Christians practice idolatry, sexual immorality, lying, homosexuality, murder, adultery or the like, and die in their sins without repenting, will they be cast into the lake of fire?


Yes or No.



JLB
 
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