Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[JLB]

it's really hard to see how a new creation can go back to being an old creation -

I don’t know of any verse that teaches that a born again Christian somehow goes back to being un-born again.


A born again Christian can certainly return to practicing the works of the flesh, rather than living according to the Spirit.


Paul teaches this throughout his letters.


First Paul tells them that if they walk according to the Spirit, they will not fulfill the lustful desires of the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Do you know what the phrase will not inherit the kingdom of God means?


Paul constantly warned of this over and over to all the Churches.

• of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past

JLB

 

[chessman]

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

And the ones of Christ Jesus crucified the flesh, with its passions and desires.​

Galatians 5:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 5:24&version=DLNT

Do you believe the ones of Christ Jesus crucified (past tense) the flesh with its passions and desires?

 

[chessman]

No scripture for you...
Just some of the reasons Jesus spoke in parables.

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. 18 “Hear then the parable of the sower.​

Matthew 13:16-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:16-18&version=NASB

Can someone, even a righteous man, desiring to hear the meaning of a parable actually hear it without their ears first being blessed?

 

[chessman]

I don’t know of any verse that teaches that a born again Christian somehow goes back to being un-born again.

That’s because being ‘un-born again’ is an oxymoron. Un-born negates born, just like a-theism negates Theism. Once you’re born, you’ve been born. You cannot be not born (i.e un-born). You can be born again (twice) or you can die but you cannot be born zero times (un-born) having once been born.

For the same reason, having been born twice (first in the flesh then again in the Spirit), you cannot not be born in the Spirit (born from above, born again).

 

[JLB]

And the ones of Christ Jesus crucified the flesh, with its passions and desires.​

Galatians 5:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 5:24&version=DLNT

Do you believe the ones of Christ Jesus crucified (past tense) the flesh with its passions and desires?

I believe those who crucify the flesh, and walk according to the Spirit, are Christ’s now in this life, and when they come before Him on the Day of Judgement.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Galatians 5:16-25


This is an active commitment from each believer, to both choose and live out of the life of the Spirit within us, rather than the desires of the flesh.


As Paul goes on to say in the next verses.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:6-7

• he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

JLB

 

[JLB]

That’s because being ‘un-born again’ is an oxymoron. Un-born negates born, just like a-theism negates Theism. Once you’re born, you’ve been born. You cannot be not born (i.e un-born). You can be born again (twice) or you can die but you cannot be born zero times (un-born) having once been born.

For the same reason, having been born twice (first in the flesh then again in the Spirit), you cannot not be born in the Spirit (born from above, born again).

Which is why un-born again is not a scriptural term.


Can you define for us what the term “the faith” means in
1 Timothy 4:1, if not the faith in Christ?


For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 3:13-4:5




JLB

 

[chessman]

I believe those who crucify the flesh, and walk according to the Spirit, are Christ’s now in this life, and when they come before Him on the Day of Judgement.

Do you believe Paul said those who are Christ’s have (past tense) crucified the flesh?

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

Galatians 5:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 5:24&version=NKJV

 

[JLB]

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. 18 “Hear then the parable of the sower.​

Matthew 13:16-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:16-18&version=NASB

Can someone, even a righteous man, desiring to hear the meaning of a parable actually hear it without their ears first being blessed?

Yes of course they can.



Their ears were blessed “because” they hear.


Not blessed first. Blessed because.


But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; Matthew 13:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you believe Paul said those who are Christ’s have (past tense) crucified the flesh?

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

Galatians 5:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 5:24&version=NKJV

Yes the crucifying of the flesh, is actively employed first and the result is everlasting life; partaking of Christ;


Just as practicing the works of the flesh is employed first, and the result is eternal damnation.




JLB

 

[MarkT]

The good news is we don’t have to speculate about it.


Jesus plainly said they believed.


We know they received the message, and it produced the joy of salvation in them, indicated by the seed becoming a plant.

• when they hear, receive the word with joy

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


From this we can see that believing must come first before salvation.


How can we understand the teachings of Christ, before we are born again, and receive a nature that is compatible with God?




JLB

God gives us a spirit of understanding so that we can read the Bible and understand and be born again. So hearing with a believing heart comes first.

The one on the rock is the man who has no depth of understanding. He probably doesn't even understand this parable.

When he hears the word of the kingdom, he believes, but when he is tested, he falls away.

He falls into unbelief is congruent with 'he believes'. He believes for a while, then he falls into unbelief.

Makes no sense to superimpose soil one onto soil two.

Salvation is the outcome of our faith.
1 Peter 1:9
As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.

Saved for a while is an unBiblical concept.

We have examples of people falling away. We don't have any examples of people being saved for a while.

 

[chessman]

Can you define for us what the term “the faith” means in
1 Timothy 4:1, if not the faith in Christ?

I can show you what Paul meant by this term in Chapter 4 (and have numerous times), but it’s up to you to believe him or not. I’m not in the business of defining terms but I can read and post links to those who are. It’s above my pay-grade. Even Paul says the definition he’s using in Chapter 4 “expressly” was stated by the Spirit. Changing what the Spirit expressly said into something else is a re-definition, not THE definition Paul’s using.

Now, with that said, let me also say that I get your point. It’s a good point! The reason I enjoy our discussions is because you DO make good points and for the most part justify them Scripturally. And I appreciate you posting the entire sentence this time.

So, now let’s notice Chapter 4 begins with the word “now” or “but”. It’s “de” in Greek. It’s used in the Greek just like we use the words “now” or “but” in English (As I have several times above).

https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm​

It’s a word used as “a weak adversative particle, generally placed second in its clause; but, on the other hand”​

My point, from the exegesis of the Text, is that Paul is moving on to another topic (adversative). Now/but, I’m not saying he’s moved on to talking about the weather or politics or whether a southern border wall around Israel would make Israel great again.

Do you agree with this point? If not, why not, since it’s in the Text itself. Then we can move on to my next point.

Notice, I’m supporting my position above exegetically and by an acknowledged Lexicon.

 

[JLB]

God gives us a spirit of understanding so that we can read the Bible and understand and be born again. So hearing with a believing heart comes first.

Are you saying we are born again first, then we believe?




JLB

 

[chessman]

Yes of course they can.



Their ears were blessed “because” they hear.


Not blessed first. Blessed because.

You’re right. So let’s use that same exegetical approach to examine another verse about the reason Jesus spoke to the crowd in parables:

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.​

Matthew 13:10-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:10-11&version=NKJV

And the disciples came up and said to him, “ Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered and said to them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to those people it has not been granted.​

Matthew 13:10-11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:10-11&version=LEB

Can someone, even a righteous man, desiring to “know” the meaning of a parable actually “know” it’s meaning without it first being “given/granted” to him?

 

[MarkT]

Are you saying we are born again first, then we believe?




JLB

No to your question.

The parable is about hearing and understanding and the heart. A person with a good heart bears fruit. The fruit of the Spirit - peace, love, hope, faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a verse about the difference between believers and unbelievers.

We're discussing
John 15:1-6
Could you please show me where it says that Jesus is speaking about believers and unbelievers?
I think we need to stop reading our own idea into scripture.
Jesus is speaking about those who abide in Him and those who do not abide in Him. He's speaking about branches that produce fruit and those that don't.
I don't see the words "believer" and "unbeliever".

In Titus 3:5 - I am saved, regenerated and renewed. In John 3:3 I am born again. In Romans 8:9, the Holy Spirit dwells in me. Where are the verses where I am, un-born again, un-regenerated and un-renewed? Where is the verse where the Holy Spirit forsakes me and moves out?

In Titus 3:5 Paul speaks throughout the entire epistle about how we are to act and be good Christians. Verse 1:16 is very interesting...speaking of those who profess to know God but by their deeds one can see they are not Christian.
If someone goes back to a life of sin, for instance the person in 2 Peter 2:20-22, are they still saved? Or does salvation depend on something WE also have to do?
Like cooperating with God for our sanctification, for instance.
2 Timothy 2:21

In Romans 8:38-39 - Paul says that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ and the list covers everything . . things in the present and the future. . that's not just external forces, that's what you are doing now and what you do in the future.

Paul was always right.
Nothing can separate us form the love of God...
except ourselves.
Mathew 6:15

Paul himself is concerned that he might not make it to the end in a saved condition.
1 Corinthians 9:27

We can be cut-off from God...
Romans 11:18-22

Stop making God into a liar! 2 Corinth 1;22; 5:5; Ephesians 1: 13-14 - I am sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of my inheritance.

How do you know YOU are not making God into a liar?
Can you find me one verse that says you will never lose your salvation?

You have no guarantee you will make it to the end if you do not abide in Christ until your end.
Mathew 24:13

 

[GodsGrace]

some versions of John 15:6 make it sound like unsaved people - not people who were once saved and then walked away - iow Jesus could be saying a person who walks away is PROVEN to be someone He never knew - and a person who remains is PROVEN to be a believer

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John 15:6

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 7:23

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 John 2:19

Hi TF
This is because we read into scriptures what we believe to be true.

John 15 is speaking very plainly about what it says. It's saying that if we're not ABIDING IN CHRIST, we will be cut off. This means that if we are NOT abiding in Christ we are not saved. It doesn't matter WHEN this happens...
BEFORE
or
AFTER
we come to believe in Jesus.

Before we're lost because we do not know Him and thus cannot abide in Him.

After, if, for some reason, we stop having faith in Him or believing in Him --- we thus become lost again.
Colossians 1:22-23

Now to your verses:

John 15:6
. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

Abide means to live with.
IF we live with Jesus, we are in a saved condition because HE said we have to be born from above. John 3:3

IF we DO NOT live with Jesus, or continue to live with Him since abide means to live with, a continuing action, and we stop abiding IN HIM, then we lose our saved condition, or status, at that point, we are thrown away as a branch and we dry up and are burned.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Very much the same as John 15.
Jesus speaks about the narrow gate and how few find it.
He says we will know the ones that find it or not by their fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down. Many will call to Him in that day but He will not know them. Why? Because they PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS.

Jesus did not mention being born again or not. Many take this to mean that He never knew "them" because they were not born again. NO. Jesus says why He will tell them to depart from Him.....Because they practiced lawlessness. Even the born again can practice lawlessness---we should beware and listen to Him.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Here it helps to know some church history. John was very concerned with a heresy that was sweeping the new church.
Gnosticism. The above does NOT refer to persons following that SEEMED to be born again but really were not....he was referring to gnostics. I'm sure you could check this out on google. Or maybe a commentary.

The bible, however, is full of warnings that we could leave the faith.

Here are some:

Luke 22:21-22
1 Timothy 2:18-20
Revelation 2:10
Romans 11:22
1 Corinthians 9:27

and many more.....

 

[GodsGrace]

i do see what you are saying but there is another way to look at it

i don't know osas - i tried to study tulip and i had trouble understanding the 5 concepts - a member here said many people can't understand it so no need to keep trying to figure out the tulip osas

but what if God is saying not everyone who goes to church is saved - and any who depart never were a part of the church - imo scripture points that way - and it is not a osas issue - it is a those who depart weren't ever a genuine part - they were just trying things out to see if they wanted to be a permanent part of Christ

it's really hard to see how a new creation can go back to being an old creation - a regenerated person goes back to being an unregenerated person - it makes more scriptural sense to me that they were dabbling and decided not to commit

I can't remember if I ever posted this.
I have said before that TULIP is NOT difficult to understand...but you didn't pursue the matter so I let it drop.

How would you explain this person?

 

[GodsGrace]

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. 18 “Hear then the parable of the sower.​

Matthew 13:16-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:16-18&version=NASB

Can someone, even a righteous man, desiring to hear the meaning of a parable actually hear it without their ears first being blessed?

Are they blessed and then they hear the parable?
Or do they hear the parable and then they are blessed?

Jesus said
Blessed are your eyes BECAUSE they see.

Jesus DID NOT say:
Blessed are your eyes SO YOU CAN see.


You're the one who sticks to every word...
how could you not understand this?

First comes the hearing...
Then comes the blessing.

And, yes, anyone DESIRING to hear the meaning of a parable will hear it and understand the meaning.
First comes the desire,,, then the understanding.
I had mentioned this in my reasons why Jesus spoke in parables.

 

[Truthfrees]

Good point, let’s see if it sticks. That’s exactly what the passage is saying in reality. And just think, it makes the top of the list of the ‘best verses ...’

It’s simply the difference between “you” (believers) and “them” (unbelievers), right there in the Text.

If anyone is not abiding in Me— he was thrown outside like the branch, and was dried-up. And they gather them together, and throw them into the fire. And they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you.​

John 15:6-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 15:6-7&version=DLNT

Do you have any idea how Jesus could truthfully say “I never knew you” to anyone who has abided in Him and His word in that someone?

that's what i was thinking also - i can;t see how it can be

 

[Truthfrees]

I can't remember if I ever posted this.
I have said before that TULIP is NOT difficult to understand...but you didn't pursue the matter so I let it drop.

How would you explain this person?

listening to this man he never talks about faith in God - he talks about faith in doctrines / religious beliefs