Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Theodore A. Jones]

Sir, it seems that grace is absent from your consideration. Ephesians 2.9 makes it clear that salvation is 'not of works, lest any man should boast' (Ephesians 2.9).

Sir it seems to me that there is a verse missing from his list.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

 

[farouk]

Sir it seems to me that there is a verse missing from his list.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Mr T A Jones: ...and yes, it's the 'obedience of faith', which comes by grace; it's not of meritorious works.

 

[Mitspa]

Sir it seems to me that there is a verse missing from his list.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Funny I do not see this "obey the law" but those who are who are doers of the law.
Then it is good to read the rest of the scriptures, before and after! Pauls point is that NO MAN can keep the law, that the purpose of the law was to make all men sinners. Those who "say" they are keeping the law, are in fact breakers of the law and God is blasphemed because of their hypocricy.

Paul goes on to write many things in regards to the the law, including that the law produces sinful desires and lust in those who are under the law. That the strength of sin is the law! That the law is not of faith.
So I assume you are one of those who claim to uphold "thou shalt not bear false witness" but yet you have used the Word of God to do that very thing?
See what most who claim to keep the law do not see is that the law produces a desire to sin in them, but it also blinds them to their own hypocricy. This is the lesson we was to learn from the pharisee.

Paul goes on to explain that only when one is set free from the law and the sin the law holds them in, can they fulfill that which the law represented, The Spirit. By faith in the Spirit we fulfull all righteousness. The law is not of faith.

 

[Mitspa]

(Please allow me to jump in here)

"...you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NIV)

Not arguing against OSAS, 'cause I'm really undecided about it, but here is one of those nagging passages that suggests the possibility of someone who believes and is saved (grafted in) but who then ceases to believe and is cut off.

This is not against you or your point jethro, but a good occasion to make a needed point about how some use the scriptures.
Again here is a scripture like that in Gal 5 that warns against those who turn from Gods Grace and kindness back into legallism and law. Verse 23 clearly says the warning is against unbelief! The law is not of faith! same warning given in Gal5!

So anyone who would use these scriptures to promote some sort of return to legalism or justification by law? Is guilty of the very law they are PRETENDING to defend. "thou shalt not bear false witness" Its always the same with these people, they cannot be trusted to quote a verse in its true context. Yet they rail against others and would lay the yoke of a law they cannot or do not keep themselves.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Funny I do not see this "obey the law" but those who are who are doers of the law.
Then it is good to read the rest of the scriptures, before and after! Pauls point is that NO MAN can keep the law, that the purpose of the law was to make all men sinners. Those who "say" they are keeping the law, are in fact breakers of the law and God is blasphemed because of their hypocricy.

Paul goes on to write many things in regards to the the law, including that the law produces sinful desires and lust in those who are under the law. That the strength of sin is the law! That the law is not of faith.
So I assume you are one of those who claim to uphold "thou shalt not bear false witness" but yet you have used the Word of God to do that very thing?
See what most who claim to keep the law do not see is that the law produces a desire to sin in them, but it also blinds them to their own hypocricy. This is the lesson we was to learn from the pharisee.

Paul goes on to explain that only when one is set free from the law and the sin the law holds them in, can they fulfill that which the law represented, The Spirit. By faith in the Spirit we fulfull all righteousness. The law is not of faith.

You mean your text reads "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is the doers (obeyers) of the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
I don't see any difference when the two statements are compared. So then your statement is that his statement is not true?
True Paul was a Pharisee, as you say, but I don't know what him being a Pharisee has to do with anything. And I don't see how just writing his statement out is bearing false witness as you have alleged. If I had written anything about what the statement means you might have some substance to allege my stated conjecture is false, but the only thing I said was I think it might be a good fit to to that fellows list. What other statements has Paul, an apostle by the way, made that you think are not true?

 

[Mitspa]

You mean your text reads "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is the doers (obeyers) of the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
I don't see any difference when the two statements are compared. So then your statement is that his statement is not true?
True Paul was a Pharisee, as you say, but I don't know what him being a Pharisee has to do with anything. And I don't see how just writing his statement out is bearing false witness as you have alleged. If I had written anything about what the statement means you might have some substance to allege my stated conjecture is false,

Well the word is NOT what you wrote is it? The word is POIETAI which has a whole other list of meanings including to produce" as fruit from a tree". No translator to my knowledge has translated that word as you have.
But that is beside the point! You clearly tried to represent the scripture out of its context and meaning! This is bearing false witness, which like Paul was saying, you who claim to keep the law are always found to be breakers of the law.
That God is blasphemed because of the hypocricy of those who claim to keep the law.

 

[vocalyocal]

this thread shows a complete lack of balance! as always can be witnessed in those debating Calvinism, or OSAS doctrines, any one biblical truth taken to the extreme, without the balance of the other side of the coin, will always bring false doctrine

with this thread and the other ones I mentioned, the truth is that both sides are equally right, but one side without the other is equally in error

 

[Deborah13]

this thread shows a complete lack of balance! as always can be witnessed in those debating Calvinism, or OSAS doctrines, any one biblical truth taken to the extreme, without the balance of the other side of the coin, will always bring false doctrine with this thread and the other ones I mentioned, the truth is that both sides are equally right, but one side without the other is equally in error

And so I plead with you not to turn this into a discussion of C vs A or OSAS vs Not because that is NOT what this discussion is about.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

James 4:4 is very clear if you are a friend of the world you are a enemy of God. Which means you have fallen from grace and cut off from God. You are rejecting Jesus and your salvation may not be secure. The word of God is crystal clear only a few will get into heaven.

Let's take a look at the whole passage, shall we?

James 4 NASB
1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have ; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? [Emphasis added]
​

First of all, it is obvious that James is speaking to believers, but is it equally obvious, as you claim, that he is saying that believers can be "cut off"? No. That phrase appears nowhere in the passage. Interestingly, the Greek echtra, which is translated "hostility" in v. 4, is closely related to the Greek echthros, translated "enemy" in v. 4. Echthra is the cause of enmity toward God. Echros is used of men as being at enmity with God by their sin opposing God in the mind. The cause of enmity is a sinful desire we do not want excluded from our behavior, that we reason is not sin, when it actually is. That puts us in echthros, rebellion. Men can rebel against God and still believe. In fact, most of our sin is exactly that: Insisting in our own minds that what we are doing is "OK" while secretly knowing but hiding from ourselves the fact that it is not.

So, James is not talking about loss of salvation. He is talking about rebellion. Any Christian can be in rebellion. That does not cost him/her their salvation. It causes a loss of fellowship, not a loss of relationship.

 

[Mitspa]

this thread shows a complete lack of balance! as always can be witnessed in those debating Calvinism, or OSAS doctrines, any one biblical truth taken to the extreme, without the balance of the other side of the coin, will always bring false doctrine

with this thread and the other ones I mentioned, the truth is that both sides are equally right, but one side without the other is equally in error

NO! it is not a mixture of law and grace. This is leaven for as Paul wrote in the strongest and clear terms, if its by works then it is no longer by grace. If is by grace then it is no longer by works, or else grace is not grace and works is not works.

This mixture of grace and works, takes away from the power of the law to do its job? To leave no doubt in any mans heart the sinful condition of his flesh, that that man might turn to God and the Blood of Christ alone for salvation. This false teaching also steals away the power of grace over mans sin.
Thus we have churches full of half-saved members, who seem unable to overcome the sinful desires of their flesh.

 

[Mitspa]

Let's take a look at the whole passage, shall we?

James 4 NASB
1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have ; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? [Emphasis added]
​

First of all, it is obvious that James is speaking to believers, but is it equally obvious, as you claim, that he is saying that believers can be "cut off"? No. That phrase appears nowhere in the passage. Interestingly, the Greek echtra, which is translated "hostility" in v. 4, is closely related to the Greek echthros, translated "enemy" in v. 4. Echthra is the cause of enmity toward God. Echros is used of men as being at enmity with God by their sin opposing God in the mind. The cause of enmity is a sinful desire we do not want excluded from our behavior, to we reason that it is not sin, when it actually is. That puts us in echthros, rebellion. Men can rebel against God and still believe. In fact, most of our sin is exactly that: Insisting in our own minds that what we are doing is "OK" while secretly knowing but hiding from ourselves the fact that it is not.

So, James is not talking about loss of salvation. He is talking about rebellion. Any Christian can be in rebellion. That does not cost him/her their salvation. It causes a loss of fellowship, not a loss of relationship.

Good post number, I often wonder why some would take every possible scripture that can be turn to cast doubt upon such a sure salvation we have in Christ? It is just clear that these folks who enjoy "unsaving" others, are willing to twist the scriptures in any way to bring fear and doubt upon others.
These same people will accept Gods mercy for themselves and those they love, but cannot grant that God will give "that same" mercy to others, apart from their religious approval. I wonder about what must be in the heart of these people? those who look to condemn are the very ones who should be warned. Those who to unsave others should be careful they do not unsave themselves!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's symbolic of how we make ourselves unclean by contact with dead things in the spiritual sense. Uncleanness from indulging 'dead' things outside of God, and being made unclean by the natural bodily emissions of our carnal nature (think spiritually) makes us unfit for the manifest benefit of fellowship with God and his people.

I can't go there. I cannot relate things particular things to any type of sin even spiritually. There are plenty of other things that are definite types and shadows. But I'll check it out as the sacrifice given for these things.

Maybe this will help:

"20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. " (Mark 7:20-21 NIV)

Like the bodily fluids that, by nature, come out of our bodies and made us unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people under the law, so it is that the things that Jesus speaks about, by nature, come out of our bodies and make us unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people. People who become unclean by these natural emissions of man (gossip, slander, etc.) make themselves unfit for manifest fellowship with, and worship, of God. See the parallels? They're undeniable, IMO.

Like the Israelites, you don't lose your salvation. You lose your covenant privileges. I'm personally convinced that many in the church can't relate to the sense of being put out of the manifest covenant privileges of the Holy Spirit because they have little to no experience in that to begin with to compare not being in those to.

Only disowning Christ altogether can remove you from salvation (whether you actually had it to begin with is what is in debate, not that disowning Christ keeps you out of covenant altogether with him).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"If we disown him, he will also disown us..." (2 Timothy 2:12 NIV)

Which is entirely different than this--the thing that people defend:

"...if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:13 NIV)

The 'he cannot disown himself' suggests what most, including me most of the time, believe, that it is those who are not securely in Christ to begin with that the warnings of not continuing him have meaning for.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Good post number, I often wonder why some would take every possible scripture that can be turn to cast doubt upon such a sure salvation we have in Christ? It is just clear that these folks who enjoy "unsaving" others, are willing to twist the scriptures in any way to bring fear and doubt upon others.
These same people will accept Gods mercy for themselves and those they love, but cannot grant that God will give "that same" mercy to others, apart from their religious approval. I wonder about what must be in the heart of these people? those who look to condemn are the very ones who should be warned. Those who to unsave others should be careful they do not unsave themselves!

Exactly, Mit. Ask one of them sometime if they've ever lost their salvation. I've tried many times. I get silence in return.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Well the word is NOT what you wrote is it? The word is POIETAI which has a whole other list of meanings including to produce" as fruit from a tree". No translator to my knowledge has translated that word as you have.
But that is beside the point! You clearly tried to represent the scripture out of its context and meaning! This is bearing false witness, which like Paul was saying, you who claim to keep the law are always found to be breakers of the law.
That God is blasphemed because of the hypocricy of those who claim to keep the law.

So then. The scriptures are not understandable until you Greek-ah- rize them aye? Well then every Greek ever born who knows Greek ought to have been enable to explain what the scripture actually means aye? Have you ever had the slightest mindful hint that James and Paul are not referencing the law you think they are referencing?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Maybe this will help:

"20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. " (Mark 7:20-21 NIV)

Like the bodily fluids that, by nature, come out of our bodies and made us unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people under the law, so it is that the things that Jesus speaks about, by nature, come out of our bodies and make us unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people. People who become unclean by these natural emissions of man (gossip, slander, etc.) make themselves unfit for manifest fellowship with, and worship, of God. See the parallels? They're undeniable, IMO.

Like the Israelites, you don't lose your salvation. You lose your covenant privileges. I'm personally convinced that many in the church can't relate to the sense of being put out of the manifest covenant privileges of the Holy Spirit because they have little to no experience in that to begin with to compare not being in those to.

Only disowning Christ altogether can remove you from salvation (whether you actually had it to begin with is what is in debate, not that disowning Christ keeps you out of covenant altogether with him).

So what is the Way a person gets into this new covenant that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ has perfected?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So then. The scriptures are not understandable until you Greek-ah- rize them aye? Well then every Greek ever born who knows Greek ought to have been enable to explain what the scripture actually means aye? Have you ever had the slightest mindful hint that James and Paul are not referencing the law you think they are referencing?

Irrelevant, because the question you should ask yourself is, maybe I'm wrong, and you are. Since the Scriptures of the New Testament were all originally written in the language of commerce, Koine Greek, it isn't that they've been "greek-ah-rized" at all. It is that they've been Anglicized -- translated from Greek into English -- and it helps to know that the Greek expresses the thought of the writers far better than any modern language. If you don't accept or understand that, you are likely to be wrong about a lot of other passages in the Bible, too.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

This is an example of the misunderstanding not only of Scripture (and I'm not saying you don't understand it, I'm speaking in generalizations) but of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, or eternal security.

One of the misconceptions about the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is that it will lead to “carnal Christians” who believe that since they are eternally secure they can live whatever licentious lifestyle they wish and still be saved. But that is a misunderstanding of the doctrine and what the Bible teaches. A person who believes he can live any way he wants because he has professed Christ is not demonstrating true saving faith.

1 John 2 NASB
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
​

Thus is the one described as in danger of being "cut off" from the Vine in Romans 11:20-22. Not because of a loss of faith, but as one never truly grafted in, or poorly grafted in. A graft has two choices, to live or to die. A graft that is poorly done or that is poorly supported will perish. In the perspective of the non-Jew grafted into the Vine, a graft "poorly done" is one that is based strictly on emotion, with no true conviction.

Many of us look at someone who walks the aisle and prays the prayer and say, "Now he/she is saved," but the truth is we don't know that. We can't see the heart, we can't know what God has thought of the confession, as to whether it is true and heartfelt or not. That is required. Also required is growth. A graft that does not take in the nourishment of the plant to which it is grafted also dies, and if a person acts on emotion and does not take in the word of God into his/her heart, and does not make the effort to find out about this faith which he/she has claimed, they are like the seeds scattered on the road. They have joyfully received, but are snatched away by the birds before they can even think about taking root.

Our eternal security rests on the biblical teaching that those whom God justifies, He will also glorify.

Romans 8
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
​

Those who are saved will indeed be conformed to the image of Christ through the process of sanctification.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
​

When a person is saved, the Holy Spirit breaks the bondage of sin and gives the believer a new heart and a desire to seek holiness. There is no way any mere human act can undo the work of God, It is impossible. Therefore a true Christian will desire to be obedient to God and will be convicted by the Holy Spirit when he sins. True Christians will never “live any way they want” because such behavior is impossible for someone who has been given a new nature.

2 Corinthians
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.​

Regarding 1 Jn. 2. Friend there is not a single local assembly noted as a "Christian" church in the word today that even has a Jesus commandment class. Keeping his commandments is about a far thought from a contemporary "Christian" mind as the outside bounds of the universe.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Regarding 1 Jn. 2. Friend there is not a single local assembly noted as a "Christian" church in the word today that even has a Jesus commandment class. Keeping his commandments is about a far thought from a contemporary "Christian" mind as the outside bounds of the universe.

That's because His commands were simple: Love God, love others (Matthew 22:37-39). That isn't hard to remember. It is easy to overlook, though, when you want to make faith so complex it becomes a list of rules. Like you're doing.

 

[Deborah13]

Like the Israelites, you don't lose your salvation. You lose your covenant privileges. I'm personally convinced that many in the church can't relate to the sense of being put out of the manifest covenant privileges of the Holy Spirit because they have little to no experience in that to begin with to compare not being in those to.

I just had a post done to you on your whole post and I unwittingly hit the backspace button with the cursor outside the box and like magic the post was gone. So I am condensing it down for right now.
I agree that what you observe may be the truth. All of us as Christians (in the born again sense) have times when we feel that God is very close or not so close, maybe even that we cannot reach Him and He does not hear. But if one has been used by the Lord to bring others to Him or the Holy Spirit has manifested Himself through one by gifts or a powerful witness of His love to others and that is to stop the sense of loss can be overwhelming and very hard to explain.
If this is what you are talking about, do we have an example of someone in the Bible that this happened to that was restored?

"He restoreth my soul."