Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[childeye]

Maybe this will help:

"20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. " (Mark 7:20-21 NIV)

Like the bodily fluids that, by nature, come out of our bodies and made us unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people under the law, so it is that the things that Jesus speaks about, by nature, come out of our bodies and make us unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people. People who become unclean by these natural emissions of man (gossip, slander, etc.) make themselves unfit for manifest fellowship with, and worship, of God. See the parallels? They're undeniable, IMO.

Like the Israelites, you don't lose your salvation. You lose your covenant privileges. I'm personally convinced that many in the church can't relate to the sense of being put out of the manifest covenant privileges of the Holy Spirit because they have little to no experience in that to begin with to compare not being in those to.

Only disowning Christ altogether can remove you from salvation (whether you actually had it to begin with is what is in debate, not that disowning Christ keeps you out of covenant altogether with him).

I'm curious what you mean by "Covenant priviledges". Do you mean to be blessed in all that we do?

 

[Deborah13]

"If we disown him, he will also disown us..." (2 Timothy 2:12 NIV)

Which is entirely different than this--the thing that people defend:

"...if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:13 NIV)

The 'he cannot disown himself' suggests what most, including me most of the time, believe, that it is those who are not securely in Christ to begin with that the warnings of not continuing him have meaning for.

I see these as to perfect scriptures to show the difference in postion and result.

Do we "miss the mark" as in 2:13? Yes, and what is the result?

Disowning is something else entirely. IMO, this is rejection of Him, of His saving grace, and the blood of Christ.

 

[farouk]

I see these as to perfect scriptures to show the difference in postion and result.

Do we "miss the mark" as in 2:13? Yes, and what is the result?

Disowning is something else entirely. IMO, this is rejection of Him, of His saving grace, and the blood of Christ.

Deborah:

Yes, I would understand apostasy as a final and definite rejection of what one may have once professed. It is not at all the idea of being 'overtaken in a fault;, as Galatians 6.1 says.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah:

Yes, I would understand apostasy as a final and definite rejection of what one may have once professed. It is not at all the idea of being 'overtaken in a fault;, as Galatians 6.1 says.

Blessings.

Yes, our God is a God of restoration and He calls us to do the same.
Sometimes this is done by a time of separation, a time in the desert, and left alone.
Others this is accomplished by sharing God's compassion and mercy.

 

[Deborah13]

Let's take a look at the whole passage, shall we?

James 4 NASB
1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have ; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? [Emphasis added]
​

First of all, it is obvious that James is speaking to believers, but is it equally obvious, as you claim, that he is saying that believers can be "cut off"? No. That phrase appears nowhere in the passage. Interestingly, the Greek echtra, which is translated "hostility" in v. 4, is closely related to the Greek echthros, translated "enemy" in v. 4. Echthra is the cause of enmity toward God. Echros is used of men as being at enmity with God by their sin opposing God in the mind. The cause of enmity is a sinful desire we do not want excluded from our behavior, to we reason that it is not sin, when it actually is. That puts us in echthros, rebellion. Men can rebel against God and still believe. In fact, most of our sin is exactly that: Insisting in our own minds that what we are doing is "OK" while secretly knowing but hiding from ourselves the fact that it is not.

So, James is not talking about loss of salvation. He is talking about rebellion. Any Christian can be in rebellion. That does not cost him/her their salvation. It causes a loss of fellowship, not a loss of relationship.

I see this post as truth that speaks directly to the problem of man.

The Law is black and white, there are no shades of gray. It does not bend, tweek, or sway. The Law is perfect and glorious.

My soul cries out, Lord help me, I need a Saviour!

 

[iLOVE]

Let's take a look at the whole passage, shall we?

James 4 NASB
1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have ; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? [Emphasis added]
​

First of all, it is obvious that James is speaking to believers, but is it equally obvious, as you claim, that he is saying that believers can be "cut off"? No. That phrase appears nowhere in the passage. Interestingly, the Greek echtra, which is translated "hostility" in v. 4, is closely related to the Greek echthros, translated "enemy" in v. 4. Echthra is the cause of enmity toward God. Echros is used of men as being at enmity with God by their sin opposing God in the mind. The cause of enmity is a sinful desire we do not want excluded from our behavior, that we reason is not sin, when it actually is. That puts us in echthros, rebellion. Men can rebel against God and still believe. In fact, most of our sin is exactly that: Insisting in our own minds that what we are doing is "OK" while secretly knowing but hiding from ourselves the fact that it is not.

So, James is not talking about loss of salvation. He is talking about rebellion. Any Christian can be in rebellion. That does not cost him/her their salvation. It causes a loss of fellowship, not a loss of relationship.

The word of God teaches us that 1/3 of the Angels in heaven rebelled against God. The word of God further states these Angels will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire at the end. So what loophole have you found that will make a Christian Believer who is a "enemy of God" an exception? If God has said it, it will come to pass. Salvation is not to be played with or to be toyed with.

 

[Mitspa]

So then. The scriptures are not understandable until you Greek-ah- rize them aye? Well then every Greek ever born who knows Greek ought to have been enable to explain what the scripture actually means aye? Have you ever had the slightest mindful hint that James and Paul are not referencing the law you think they are referencing?

I do not understand your point? We should not look to understand the Greek, because we are not Greek? What kind of logic it that? I am glad I know the Geek, to protect me and others from those who bear false witness.
As far as the law it is clear to which law Paul is speaking! Why would any honest person act as if it where in doubt? That does not seem as the actions of a person who wanted to uphold "thou shalt not bear false witness"? Are you trying to be honest when you suggest that the "law" that speaks of , is not the law of moses? The very one he mentions throughout his writtings? So we are to believe that those of you who would lay the yoke of the law upon us, are to be trusted, when you seem so willing to break the very law, you pretend to uphold? No! The strength of sin is the law! Thats why those under the law cannot be honest, but are blind to their own hypocricy.

 

[Mitspa]

The word of God teaches us that 1/3 of the Angels in heaven rebelled against God. The word of God further states these Angels will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire at the end. So what loophole have you found that will make a Christian Believer who is a "enemy of God" an exception? If God has said it, it will come to pass. Salvation is not to be played with or to be toyed with.

How can a "christian believer" be an enemy of God? When in order to be a "christain believer" one is made a friend of God and has peace with God. The enemies of Christ are those who reject the Cross and work there. The bible warns those who are like the pharisee, who look to condemn others and to call unclean what Christ has washed. The only way any believer can reject Christ is to turn from His goodness and grace back into law. What is in a mans heart that he would attempt to shake anothers faith? What evil it is to attempt to unsave, what Christ has saved! What darkness of heart to attempt to cause others to stumble! I say those of you who look to unsave others are in danger of unsaving yourself. Stop trying to teach others and teach yourself.

The harlot will enter into the kingdom before the hypocrite.

 

[gr8grace]

The word of God teaches us that 1/3 of the Angels in heaven rebelled against God. The word of God further states these Angels will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire at the end. So what loophole have you found that will make a Christian Believer who is a "enemy of God" an exception? If God has said it, it will come to pass. Salvation is not to be played with or to be toyed with.

The real question is, How many of Gods elect Angels in heaven will God cast out? Or do you think Gods elect Angels are there to stay?

The loophole is non existent for a doctrinal believer. The loophole is derived from the False idea of losing ones salvation, and then is applied falsely to the doctrinal believer who knows one cannot lose salvation.( No loophole needed.)

Love your verses at the bottom of your post. Do you really believe those verses? What was His question to us at the end of those verses? John 11:25-26

Shall never die.....do you believe this?

 

[Deborah13]

James 4:4 is very clear if you are a friend of the world you are a enemy of God. Which means you have fallen from grace and cut off from God. You are rejecting Jesus and your salvation may not be secure. The word of God is crystal clear only a few will get into heaven.

James 2:10 is also clear.
James 2:10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


So if we are guilty of all by stumbling in one our grade point average is 0.0%

And seeing that the highest grade is 100.0%+ accomplished by Jesus Himself

Even if God were to grade on a curve, we flunk the test.

 

[iLOVE]

How can a "christian believer" be an enemy of God? When in order to be a "christain believer" one is made a friend of God and has peace with God. The enemies of Christ are those who reject the Cross and work there. The bible warns those who are like the pharisee, who look to condemn others and to call unclean what Christ has washed. The only way any believer can reject Christ is to turn from His goodness and grace back into law. What is in a mans heart that he would attempt to shake anothers faith? What evil it is to attempt to unsave, what Christ has saved! What darkness of heart

to attempt to cause others to stumble! I say those of you who look to unsave others are in danger of unsaving yourself. Stop trying to teach others and teach yourself.

The harlot will enter into the kingdom before the hypocrite.

Do not continue to have Antichrist views that God doesn't mean what He says. The fallen ANGELS believed in God and rebelled that will be casted into the Lake Of Fire. You must stop teaching Christian Believers God did not mean what He said! I trust God, not you!

 

[Mitspa]

now anyone who has ever read the bible knows that the warning of "falling from grace" is given to those who are turning back into law and self justification. What does it say about the honesty of one who would use that scripture out of its clear context to cast doubt upon those who are in standing in grace? So are we to take warnings from those who cannot even use the scriptures in an honest way? Are we the ones that need to be warned, or are they the ones that should repent and turn from their sin? Read 2 Cor 3 The law blinds the heart and mind of these people, to the point that they are blind to their own actions, but cannot rest until they have accused those that Christ has justified.

 

[Mitspa]

Do not continue to have Antichrist views that God doesn't mean what He says. The fallen ANGELS believed in God and rebelled that will be casted into the Lake Of Fire. You must stop teaching Christian Believers God did not mean what He said! I trust God, not you!

Yes He said that narrow is the Way, and few would find it? He also said the harlot would enter before the hypocrite. Because the harlot knows that it is by Gods Grace and goodness. The hypocrite thinks he has earned something from God. That he has worked for his salvation. Just like that evil Cain, who labored in that which God had cursed? "the law is cursed" and by the deeds of the law shall no man be justified. Able offered the Lamb "righteousness of faith" and was accepted before God. The reason some have the heart of cain, and look to destroy the righteous, is because they hate those of us who are accepted before God. Freely justified by His Grace. So it is no wonder that those who think their salvation is dependent upon thier own efforts, have no assurance. They are not established upon the Rock and they do not and can not stand. But by grace we stand and will not be moved.
Now ilove, i have not judged you to this point. But as a true minister of The Living God, I have power to bring upon you that which you would lay upon others. So I would warn you to be a bit more humble and show respect for Gods people.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The word of God teaches us that 1/3 of the Angels in heaven rebelled against God. The word of God further states these Angels will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire at the end. So what loophole have you found that will make a Christian Believer who is a "enemy of God" an exception? If God has said it, it will come to pass. Salvation is not to be played with or to be toyed with.

Find me passages that tell you angels have souls and cmay be redeemed, and I'll answer your questions. You're comparing apples to oranges. The rebellion of angels has nothing to do with the rebellion of man. Besides, I've explained to you why your take on the "enemy of God" quote from that passage is incorrect. You can continue to insist that it says differently, but that will just make you more off base.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what is the Way a person gets into this new covenant that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ has perfected?

Well, let's see. You capitalized 'Way', so that suggests the 'Way' is a person. The 'Way' is the entry into the New Covenant, and was perfected through crucifixion. So, based on those clues I have to say, 'Jesus', of course.

"...it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered." (Hebrews 2:10 NIV)

"...and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." (Hebrews 5:9 NIV)

I know where you're going next. Just be prepared to answer the question I've been asking all through my participation in this and a similar thread.

 

[iLOVE]

A Christian Believer that has fallen from grace = no blessings. A Christian Believer that is a enemy of God and rebelling against God=Lake Of Fire. You have rejected Christ and the Cross.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

A Christian Believer that has fallen from grace = no blessings. A Christian Believer that is a enemy of God and rebelling against God=Lake Of Fire. You have rejected Christ and the Cross.

No, you have made Him a legalist instead of the righteous Judge that He is. You don't understand the passage, and you're using it to condemn, which also isn't in your purview.

 

[iLOVE]

Find me passages that tell you angels have souls and cmay be redeemed, and I'll answer your questions. You're comparing apples to oranges. The rebellion of angels has nothing to do with the rebellion of man. Besides, I've explained to you why your take on the "enemy of God" quote from that passage is incorrect. You can continue to insist that it says differently, but that will just make you more off base.

Let that be your bible homework...there are many people who rebelled against God in the bible...read about their results.

 

[Deborah13]

A Christian Believer that has fallen from grace = no blessings. A Christian Believer that is a enemy of God and rebelling against God=Lake Of Fire. You have rejected Christ and the Cross.

This is an Oxymoron.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

now anyone who has ever read the bible knows that the warning of "falling from grace" is given to those who are turning back into law and self justification.

But they are not the only one's that fall away from grace. Many people choose to simply go back to the world and not seek to walk in the ways of God anymore. That is the group I think of when considering this thread.