Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Deborah13]

The Law is good, for it is of the Lord. If it is being used correctly. For us to follow the commandments, of loving God and our neighbor, is to follow in the footsteps of our Saviour.

When the Law is used incorrectly to teach that we can in anyway be justified by the Law is when there is a problem. This is teaching a mixture of law and grace for salvation and justification. If the Law is used to condemn people to hell, teaching that we are, in Christ, out of Christ, back in Christ, this is death. We are eternally in Christ. He will keep us. We cannot "jump out of His hand" He's a better Dad than that.

Here's an example of this type of teaching. "made righteous, in Christ" = "walk the straight and narrow or you could lose your salvation" How? Because you are only "righteous in Christ" when you don't have any sin in your life.
So when we look at the Law it will always condemn us (because we cannot follow it to perfection).

We must be righteous to have eternal life, that is the Gift of Jesus' righteousness. You cannot earn a Gift. Not by righteous good deeds and Not by keeping the Law because the Law must be kept to perfection. James tells us that if we break the Law in one point we have broken them all. This is a serious thing. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they were to lust in their heart they had commited adultry. He was showing them that they could not fulfill the Law. Their righteousness was worthless for justification and salvation.

Eph 2:8-9 - grace, faith, righteousness - all gifts

So should we keep on sinning that grace may abound? Heaven forbid!

 

[jasoncran]

I thought so.


Of course there are different teachings, but I don't care what my congregation or denomination says, I just care what the bible says. I love The Lord's Prayer "Our Father in heaven......lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..." This prayer was for believers and even believers can get sucked into sin. Free will never ended at the cross.

Luke 22:40 When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.†but he also gave us this promise.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

I came across this verse for another thread, but thought it had relevance here. The Israelites were a redeemed nation and people after the Red Sea. Yet the Lord's wrath burned when they were worshipping the golden calf

Exodus 32:10 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.â€

God was willing to pour out his wrath on the entire Israelite community, save for Moses. That included Aaron. To me, this is speaking high handed treason will be punished and the Lord's wrath will be poured out. So if they were redeemed before, that sin would have cost them their redemption IMO. And we know God does not pour out his wrath on the redeemed. So in a nutshell, I believe there are sins one who was saved, could lose it. Sinning of the high hand.




God has the Book of Life that was first revealed in Genesis 17:14 but first called the Book of Life in Exodus 32. I firmly believe a believer can be blotted out, but not without the shepherd searching high and low for the 1 lost sheep out of 99 tended for.

that is death. not the idea of sheol and forevermore. the book of life is an oral idea.i say this because when I did part of the jewish rituals for my family they mentioned little on the idea of the afterworld. its not in their teachings per say. it make sense.

 

[Sparkey]

No my friend and as you have misunderstood me in the past, I very well may have failed to see your point? It sounded as if I had insulted you in some way? Even those who have come against me have seen your post as an chance to ridicule the servant of God. I would add that If one says they love and uphold the law? Then they must also admit they can never keep it because of the sin that dwells in them. I uphold the law for its purpose and its standard should not be made to bend to mans weakness. That its standard is so great that all men must admit they cannot keep it! Anyone who claims they do? is not honest. So, are we justified by faith, until we break a commandment? That is not eternal security and that is not the gospel. The law and Moses is Not to be compared to Christ! I do not think you would ever allow the law to take away What Christ has died to give you. Justified freely by His grace.

Truly said. Thank you.

 

[John Zain]

I still cannot remember anyone here explaining ...

WHY ALL OF THE MANY DIRE WARNINGS TO THE CHURCHES?

Which is what da thread is (err, was) all about!

Geez, Louise ... what a laugh!

 

[Mitspa]

I still cannot remember anyone here explaining ...

WHY ALL OF THE MANY DIRE WARNINGS TO THE CHURCHES?

Which is what da thread is (err, was) all about!

Geez, Louise ... what a laugh!

I have made the point over and over that those who seem to enjoy warning others need to warn themselves. Most every warning in the New Testament is made against those who turn from grace back to legalism. Most of the people who seem to want to warn others are the very people who are being warned in the scripture. So bring your warning of scripture, but I warn you that when you attempt to lay it upon others? It may very well be the warning God has intended for you?

 

[gr8grace]

I still cannot remember anyone here explaining ...

WHY ALL OF THE MANY DIRE WARNINGS TO THE CHURCHES?

Which is what da thread is (err, was) all about!

Geez, Louise ... what a laugh!

The answer you are looking for is in Post #7:

Re: Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches
Originally Posted by John Zain
Sorry, edited, I asked you first, remember?

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) …
do you have any good explanations for why these verses are written to the churches?

A NO would suffice for your answer.
They were written to the Church so they could go out into the world and warn the lost what would occur if they did not get saved.

Most of the verses you pulled out of context deal with people who are not saved.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The answer you are looking for is in Post #7:

Re: Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches
Originally Posted by John Zain
Sorry, edited, I asked you first, remember?

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) …
do you have any good explanations for why these verses are written to the churches?

A NO would suffice for your answer.
They were written to the Church so they could go out into the world and warn the lost what would occur if they did not get saved.

Most of the verses you pulled out of context deal with people who are not saved.

How dare you use logic in this argument! :D

 

[Mitspa]

The answer you are looking for is in Post #7:

Re: Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches
Originally Posted by John Zain
Sorry, edited, I asked you first, remember?

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) …
do you have any good explanations for why these verses are written to the churches?

A NO would suffice for your answer.
They were written to the Church so they could go out into the world and warn the lost what would occur if they did not get saved.

Most of the verses you pulled out of context deal with people who are not saved.

Not only are they pulled out of context but the very words, the meanings of words and the order of the words have been changed! I do not know, but I am almost sure that the one who posted these "warnings" claims to keep the law of moses?

"thou shalt not bear false witness" Here we have a person that claims to represent God and His truth yet has so misused and twisted the Holy Words of Christ.
Like I said, those who warn others should first warn themselves.

 

[Mitspa]

Here is a pretty good warning; Rom 2 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges, for in what things you judge others, you condemn yourself.

See we have therefore now no condemnation for our weakness to keep the law. But we are condemned if we judge others by the law. Because none can keep the law, but we all can show mercy if we desire mercy.

Here is another warning? James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to those who show no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

 

[gr8grace]

Not only are they pulled out of context but the very words, the meanings of words and the order of the words have been changed! I do not know, but I am almost sure that the one who posted these "warnings" claims to keep the law of moses?

"thou shalt not bear false witness" Here we have a person that claims to represent God and His truth yet has so misused and twisted the Holy Words of Christ.
Like I said, those who warn others should first warn themselves.

Hello brother Mitspa,

Yes ,with a close examination of how scripture was used and quoted there are a lot of changes.

I pray for John, we are all sinners and on the road to ultimate sanctification.

I do a flip flop with the things that other believers try to condemn us for and the believer that trys to hold us to their standards and try to tell us how to live and try to put us back under the Law. In my opinion they have put themselves under so much bondage they are really screaming for help, and do not know the way out so they super impose that struggle onto other believers because they do not know what to do.

Most of us want to jump all over the one who started this thread, and I see it as one who is crying out for the truth and his own freedom in Christ and has no idea how to do it. So that struggle has been placed to all others and that same bondage has to be transferred to other believers to make one feel more secure.

And to be honest with you, I am not very good at trying to get believers to believe their undeniable promise from our lord that he will keep us in His grace no matter what!

I see the OP as a cry for help, not at an attempt to put me under the law. I just wish I could help.

 

[childeye]

I think we can discuss the Scripture passage

without talking about free will - it is ASSUMED in the passage that it
exists.
Thus, the blame is on the "dog", not God. There is no
need to make every
discussion free will v God's sovereignty, which, in my
opinion, is a false
dichotomy.

I apologize Joe. I am almost afraid to say free will. I don't see where free will is assumed in the passage. Perhaps we have a different view of what free will means. I am talking about the ability to determine my own future without God having any thing to do with it as pertains to morality. A dog does what dogs do according to their individual abilities. I don't blame the dog nor do I blame God for making the dog. Moreover, I can blame a puppy for peeing on the rug, or a toddler for pooping in his pants and I can justify those infractions also simply by saying they didn't know any better. But it is an entirely different type of blame when it is done out of a free will as in purposefully and knowingly doing wrong. And it is on that point that I feel it is unsafe to assume that the scripture assumes there is a free will. For I might end up bringing harsh judgment and hatred upon those who cannot help what they do. Jesus suffered a cross of torture and slander yet forgave with a Love I am trying to believe in and emulate. Assuming men have free wills who do such terrible things runs counter to that spirit of Christ which I desire to be like.

Yes I suppose free will vs. sovereignty is a false dichotomy, particularly if in fact there is no free will. And I say that with the caveat that I do believe in the free will defined as that will that is set free by Jesus.

I prefer first mover/cause and second mover/cause, God allows the

later.

Not sure what this means.

Peter seems non-plussed about free will, it is assumed that man does have free
will. The false preacher is making the decision to return to the vomit.
Nowhere does it say that God is at fault or causing this. We don't say that God
is withdrawing grace to a believer just to suit the Calvinistic model that God
has 'rolled the dice' for certain players and some lose no matter what they
decide to do.

You cite the scripture that the false preacher is making a decision to return to the vomit. On this you base your conclusion that a free will is to be assumed. I seem to recall us already having this same discussion somewhere in the past. But here you have replaced a dog with a false preacher to magnify your point. While I get the picture, it still misses the point I am addressing. I am not trying to prove there is no free will. I am trying to forgive those who persecute me and pray earnestly for my enemies. I seek to avoid hurting the innocent people the devil would shield himself with. I don't want to kill the hostages I would rescue. I don't want to be played by the devil through a lie that men have a free will.

Your point is to show there is a choice being made. But I do not argue that point. I know something is expected of me in response to any given moral option placed before me. That does not mean I can assume I have a freewill. I may be pre-dispositioned due to a pride wherein I think I see clearly when in fact I cannot. For I can see I must do something even if I choose to do nothing. But that does not help me to make the right choice for all involved.
I don't assume the scripture is saying I can choose not to be a dog, nor would I think it would be wrong if God was causing it although I am sure that is not the point of this scripture. However, Jesus once impled a woman was a dog saying, Shall the food for the children be given to the dogs. She was not deterred by this remark which she could have taken offense at. She didn't even say, teach me how to not be a dog, or change me into one of the children. She simply said that even the dogs have to eat from the scraps that fall from the Masters table. Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, marveled at her faith. Consequently it remains in question in my mind that Jesus is saying we can choose to not be false teachers. Isn't there a scripture that says such false teachers were ordained to do so? As in it could not be helped? Certainly they were prophesied that they would come which indicate there is an order to these events rather than they happen by mere chance or by any random process of making choices.

It seems that every question that involves man must inevitably come down to free
will. I don't agree, we can presume that man does have some free will.
Otherwise, the subject matter that involves the vast majority of religious
discussion is moot. Just "eat, drink, and be merry, for God has already decided
for you, and you can do nothing about it." No, I prefer to remain on topic,
Childeye.

I am trying to remain on topic. I'm also trying to keep it real as in honest and sincere with no guile or pretense. I know you don't wish to discuss the topic of free will and again I apologize that it has gone there. However, you make my point accurately that presuming there is a free will would render a majority of religious discussion moot if in fact there is no free will. I therefore must address the issue whether people like it or not. I don't think it is wise to build a conclusion based upon an assumption. And I am using the accepted theological term "freewill". Again I emphasize that I believe a will that is free is one set free by the Truth. Hence I recognize an enslaved will also.

 

[gr8grace]

That being said though, scripture used wrong and if one wants to continue in that state, I do my best to refute those false ideas. And If one does not want to come out of that bondage, I am Here to help that one does not try to put others under that bondage.

 

[gr8grace]

How dare you use logic in this argument! :D

It is great going back and looking at all the answers.

If one truly wanted answers, this thread would have been closed on the first page.:D

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It is great going back and looking at all the answers.

If one truly wanted answers, this thread would have been closed on the first page.:D

Yeah, but they didn't want answers. They want to argue their favorite false doctrine(s). :toofunny

... except it's not really funny.

 

[Free]

The arrogance and spiritual pride has suddenly become overwhelming in the last couple of pages. Perhaps it is time the thread is closed.

 

[Mitspa]

Hello brother Mitspa,

Yes ,with a close examination of how scripture was used and quoted there are a lot of changes.

I pray for John, we are all sinners and on the road to ultimate sanctification.

I do a flip flop with the things that other believers try to condemn us for and the believer that trys to hold us to their standards and try to tell us how to live and try to put us back under the Law. In my opinion they have put themselves under so much bondage they are really screaming for help, and do not know the way out so they super impose that struggle onto other believers because they do not know what to do.

Most of us want to jump all over the one who started this thread, and I see it as one who is crying out for the truth and his own freedom in Christ and has no idea how to do it. So that struggle has been placed to all others and that same bondage has to be transferred to other believers to make one feel more secure.

And to be honest with you, I am not very good at trying to get believers to believe their undeniable promise from our lord that he will keep us in His grace no matter what!

I see the OP as a cry for help, not at an attempt to put me under the law. I just wish I could help.

Good points GG.
I do feel that God has given me some understanding of the root of this bitterness? As you well see, I believe the heart of all this strife and bitterness is a condemned person. They themselves feel condemned, they feel God is judging them, therefore they see God as angry and ready to condemn. "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he" a condemned person will always look to condemn others. So I challenge thier belief that God is judging the believer by the law of moses. They cannot love others and walk in mercy until they can receive that love and mercy in an unconditional way. Now some, have just been taught wrong and are willing to look to the scriptures in an honest way, they will in the process of time learn to accept the truth of scripture. Others are never going to repent unless they are confronted with thier own hypocricy. This can be kinda ugly, but God does get in the face of the hypocrites as the Lord did show us. Then there is another group "reprobate" I will not say much about this but God has given me spiritual power to judge the spirits. Basically God humbles the proud and exalts the humble. There is a spiritual power in righteousness, that is seen in Isa 54 Those who rise in judgment against the righteous should be condemned. It is a spiritual law, and it will bring a rod of correction to those who accuse the righteous. So here is another warning for those who enjoy warning others? With what judgment ye judge it will be mete back to you. A judgment begins in the House of the Lord.

That was not for you Greatgrace! Blessings and peace to those who make and love peace.

 

[Mitspa]

The arrogance and spiritual pride has suddenly become overwhelming in the last couple of pages. Perhaps it is time the thread is closed.

not sure what you are speaking of? Are you accusing me of pride? or arrogance?
I have posted several post these last two pages, what not be clear of who you are speaking? I have shown no spiritual pride nor arrogance.

 

[gr8grace]

not sure what you are speaking of? Are you accusing me of pride? or arrogance?
I have posted several post these last two pages, what not be clear of who you are speaking? I have shown no spiritual pride nor arrogance.

This will probably get this thread shut down but, there is to much talk of the truth of eternal security going on.

 

[childeye]

I want to make a point on Peter and yes I am going to bring
this back to law and grace! Because from the beginning of scripture even unto
the last words in Revelation the whole discussion of scripture is about the
principle of Gods grace given by promise and mans efforts to earn and to
establish himself through the tree of KoGE. We see that Cain labored in that
which God had cursed? The ground, and tried to offer that which God had
cursed back to God. Able offered the Lamb by faith and was accounted as
righteous before God.

I can see that, although I would have said Cain was giving his offering with an attitude of trying to prove himself rather than seeking to simply please God.

Faith in Christ against the efforts of man, is the bible! If any want to truly
understand the things of God they must be set free from the attempts and desire
to serve God in mans efforts. For ONLY when we die to this effort of flesh can
the Divine nature be understood.

Yes I can see that, but that is because I understand what you mean by "efforts of man". Faith itself is an effort of man when he struggles against his lack of faith. Indeed you are ever pointing out that men will not attain to righteousness through the law since all things are unpure to the impure of heart. That law he attempts to serve then becomes his adversary.

Peter boasted in his love for Jesus and in his ability to stand when others
would not. THIS KIND OF RELIGIOUS BOASTING OPENS THE DOORS TO SATAN! when we
believe we can do something in our own strength, we invite satan to sift us. Now
notice this same Peter after the Spirit of grace had come upon him? He told the
jews "YOU HAVE DENIED THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL" this is the same Peter, days
later! What is to be seen in this? That no man can stand in his own efforts.
Only by grace does any man stand!

Now here I see something I had not seen quite as well as you have described it,

" when we believe we can do something in our own strength, we invite satan to sift us".

Well said.

The law is a rejection of faith and the grace of God, no matter how one tries
to sugar coat it with religious words.

You who are justified by law, have fallen from grace.
Point blank, clear as day! evident! The law is not of faith!

Yes I can see that, particularly because I would not tell somebody I trusted to not steal from me.

Now to those who think they can be half way under law and then use Gods grace
part of the time? You have very little understanding of the gospel, you should
stop trying to teach others and teach yourself.

Now here I pause to ponder. What exactly is thinking one is halfway under the law? And why say it to me? Is there something you wish to correct me about? If so. I would be sincerely grateful to be corrected.

 

[Deborah13]

That being said though, scripture used wrong and if one wants to continue in that state, I do my best to refute those false ideas. And If one does not want to come out of that bondage, I am Here to help that one does not try to put others under that bondage.

greatgrace, I just want to say again that your posts to me were exactly what I needed to hear. Not because I didn't know my position now but if I was not saved at the time I thought I had been how could I know for sure my restoration was real. You took that concern away.
You are a blessing to us all.