Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Well said. The road out of ignorance is a narrow road and we all end up bumping shoulders as we eventually fall into line.

 

[iLOVE]

yes, but how is it that most in church these days really don't know the word?yet claim im saved without being able to even defend the basics of the gospel? I mean I can stump a lot of people with simple things that I have learned from here and before.

most Christians haven't read the bible. he is YOUR savior and you don't want to know him? yes we all get lazy. but man's its scary what I have seen and heard in my time with Christ. I had to ask the hard questions because the jw do spend time through the bible.

Jason as I was told and put in my place by Mitspa...why are you trying to send Christians to Hell just because you know the bible better than them?

 

[jasoncran]

did I send? did I judge them No I didn't. I have workers in my church that teach and minister that haven't read the bible fully. that is the state of the church.

 

[iLOVE]

did I send? did I judge them No I didn't. I have workers in my church that teach and minister that haven't read the bible fully. that is the state of the church.

It is a process for all Christians. If God made a donkey speak; part the Red Sea all the way back to the City of Adam with a walk way; showing Satan He is about to reverse what Adam did...then God knows how to teach us, and bring the tools in our lives for wisdom and understanding. Every teacher is not for everybody.

 

[jasoncran]

these are saved men been saved for years some longer then me! I was saved in 1996 and by 1998 I had read the entire bible. how can one teach the word if one doesn't know the word. im not saying you will know it all but still ya got to at least read it and know where to look.the more I do teach, I must read up and and the more I find I don't know. that Is what im saying.

theres a man on this forum whom spent one year in exodus and taught three verses on it each sunday and claims not to have even touched that book's depth! one book!

 

[iLOVE]

these are saved men been saved for years some longer then me! I was saved in 1996 and by 1998 I had read the entire bible. how can one teach the word if one doesn't know the word. im not saying you will know it all but still ya got to at least read it and know where to look.the more I do teach, I must read up and and the more I find I don't know. that Is what im saying.

theres a man on this forum whom spent one year in exodus and taught three verses on it each sunday and claims not to have even touched that book's depth! one book!

If you know the word, you should know God said all Christians will KNOW HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jasoncran]

yes but don't think that they would know his word. just because a voice says something to the effect Im an your god. my name is micheal too. how will they refute that if they never knew that micheal was an archangel?

 

[iLOVE]

yes but don't think that they would know his word. just because a voice says something to the effect Im an your god. my name is micheal too. how will they refute that if they never knew that micheal was an archangel?

Focus on the promise of God's word...do not doubt...have faith!

 

[jasoncran]

that didn't deal with the issue. look I used to go to a sunday school as a kid and try to refute Christianity often, and was simply told shut up the bible is true. while im not saying debate a jw but if they are sincere and want to know then you ought to try to answer them.

its called for all Christians to do apologetics and not just pastors. sure some are called to that but that doesn't mean you cant research and read up and answer.

 

[Deborah13]

that didn't deal with the issue. look I used to go to a sunday school as a kid and try to refute Christianity often, and was simply told shut up the bible is true. while im not saying debate a jw but if they are sincere and want to know then you ought to try to answer them.

its called for all Christians to do apologetics and not just pastors. sure some are called to that but that doesn't mean you cant research and read up and answer.

LOL remember you said that Jason when you have to put up with people like me and me asking some pretty milky questions. Do appreciate you, too.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't mind questions. I have men I go to myself.

I hit the assistant pastor up on the statement by RYAN on Jesus was a nazarite. he said most scholars say no. he gave me the best explanation on why jesus didn't partake on the wine. he did say the idea comes from an aprocrophya book. I have more. one of them will be on sheol and the jewish and Christian idea of hell.

 

[Mitspa]

I don't mind questions. I have men I go to myself.

I hit the assistant pastor up on the statement by RYAN on Jesus was a nazarite. he said most scholars say no. he gave me the best explanation on why jesus didn't partake on the wine. he did say the idea comes from an aprocrophya book. I have more. one of them will be on sheol and the jewish and Christian idea of hell.

never mind!

 

[Ryan]

Thank you. I forgot about those who lurk. I'm encouraged.

It's hard to ignore, isn't it?

I thought so.

Ryan, you need to go study up. The greatest OSAS people are Calvinist and they believe that a truly saved person will not backslide. What do the Messianic Jews say?

Of course there are different teachings, but I don't care what my congregation or denomination says, I just care what the bible says. I love The Lord's Prayer "Our Father in heaven......lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..." This prayer was for believers and even believers can get sucked into sin. Free will never ended at the cross.

Luke 22:40 When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” but he also gave us this promise.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

I came across this verse for another thread, but thought it had relevance here. The Israelites were a redeemed nation and people after the Red Sea. Yet the Lord's wrath burned when they were worshipping the golden calf

Exodus 32:10 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

God was willing to pour out his wrath on the entire Israelite community, save for Moses. That included Aaron. To me, this is speaking high handed treason will be punished and the Lord's wrath will be poured out. So if they were redeemed before, that sin would have cost them their redemption IMO. And we know God does not pour out his wrath on the redeemed. So in a nutshell, I believe there are sins one who was saved, could lose it. Sinning of the high hand.

Ryan, the Jews had a book of life, maybe still do. When they were born their name went in the book and was removed when they died.

There has not been a definitive answer in my opinion as to when one's name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life. It may be at actual birth and not blotted out until their judgment and depend then on their position in Christ. IN or OUT

uhm that book of life is the same idea. remember that the book of revalation is chock full of jewish imagery. the book of life had names that could be blotted out in the tanach and in the new testament or brit chadosh. its one of them oral traditions that the jews had that are found in canon.

God has the Book of Life that was first revealed in Exodus 17:14 but first called the Book of Life in Exodus 32. I firmly believe a believer can be blotted out, but not without the shepherd searching high and low for the 1 lost sheep out of 99 tended for.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Now here's a scary and enlightening relevant scripture I found.

Hebrews 6: 4-8
t is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned./ (niv)

Apologies if it's already been posted. I'm only loosely following this thread.

This does not prove "lost salvation" as many think, and I don't know if you do or not, Edward, but I'd like to point out a couple things about this passage that are grossly misunderstood by some.

Hebrews 6 NASB
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
​

This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear -- it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses: One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus as the “true Light,” giving light “to every man.” This, however, cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group -- unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not the equivalent of salvation. Rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it; just as a taste is not a meal., this "taste" of the gospel is just an interest, mostly of a passing an unconvincing nature. We must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith. Otherwise, we would in effectually re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

Still another interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is "if" in v. 6. The writer of Hebrews, according to this view, is setting up a hypothetical statement: “If a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (If a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise -- that a true Christian can fall away -- and follows it to its senseless conclusion to claim that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again. The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum in Latin, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation. The second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal: John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5) and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms, rather than offers up a contradiction to that doctrine.

 

[Mitspa]

Now here's a scary and enlightening relevant scripture I found.

Hebrews 6: 4-8
t is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned./ (niv)

Apologies if it's already been posted. I'm only loosely following this thread.

I must say this again! read the whole book of Hebrews and the whole book is written to Christians Jews who are turning back to the law of moses! Notice the term sin is always a transgression against the law of faith in Christ. To take this portion of scripture out of that context is a great error. The "willful sin" mentioned later is this same trangression of the most Holy Commandment? THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM.
The open shame that Paul warns these Hebrews of is that of going back in to the carnal attempts to justify oneself by the law. Such as washings, temple service etc... even unto the sacrifice of animals for sins. Now this is the warning of counting the Blood of Christ as a common thing.
Can we all look at these warnings and take heed that we do not lose heart, but continue on unto the attaining of Christ?
Yes! But always see the context of the book of Hebrews and understand the sin that runs through this book is the sin of unbelief. THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH! not sure why some can not believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not for the believer? Trust the Word of God, because this is EVIDENT!

 

[francisdesales]

You have put your finger rightly upon the struggle that I continually face. I agree, the Grace of the Lord Most High, can be frustrated and we are warned against acting in such a way. With the promise, comes the power and I need, need, the support of the saints each day. Thank you, Francis de Sales, or if I may, I've read what childseye said and would like to see you continue here, supported and upheld by your brothers and sisters in our Most Holy faith.

I have called for the Judgment of God in my life and have seen how He works for righteousness in all. Today I do call for Mercy and plan to do so until such time as we see each other "face to face". Hope remains yet Love is greater.

Thanks, Sparrowhawke. I have always enjoyed your words of wisdom. I am glad to read them once again.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you for your assuring post.
Your kindness is appreciated.

Thank you Deborah. Do not worry - as long as you are in Christ, you have eternal life. Now. The power to be merciful and forgiving and loving to others, even in the face of evil and suffering. In Christ, we can do all, as He has promised to share with us the divine nature. Without Christ, we cannot obey the commandment to love. Thus, we can KNOW when we examine our day in prayer!

Take care

 

[francisdesales]

Hello,

I read through a thread,"how secure are we in Christ?" I would be curious what you thought of some of those teachings?

If you had time or wanted too? I am familiar with those teachings and with my discernment I can not explain them away.

Could you post me a link and I will take a look at them - feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything separately and directly. I will try to help you in any way that I can.

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you saying ...
Because God gave you the gift of faith (via His grace), you were then enabled to believe?
Perhaps a YES or a NO will be enough. Thanks.

Yes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I'm going to have to ask you to back up what you just said, please. What denominations or churches do you see doing this?
? "the church is failing because they are afraid of being accused of being lawkeepers? And this started way back when?

I'm speaking of Christians in general.

I've actually heard someone say, "I'm not going to do that because it would just be works", to explain why they were not going to do something. I hope that if a 'Christian' is ever pointing a gun at me and contemplating whether to shoot me or not that he doesn't rationalize pulling the trigger using that thinking.