Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Ryan]

Do you believe God can be at enmity with himself?

No.

That's a relief. Some belief that after someone has accepted Jesus as there Lord and Savior, and wish to follow the ways of the Torah, they have fallen from grace. The only way to fall from grace, is to sin. So then that is saying the Torah is sin, and what was once considered perfect, holy and eternal (Psalms 119 and many other passages throughout the bible), is now relegated to being the evil step-child that should be cast away and not followed lest you fall from grace. That's reassuring and hallelujah God cannot be at enmity with himself. I'm interested in your studying and thoughts of Galatians and Romans, but maybe save that for another thread and time.

 

[francisdesales]

I agree with you that in 2 Pet 2:20-21 believers are in view.

But where do you get peter saying, Hell, eternal judgement, unending suffering, lake of fire for those believers?

With all due respect, I believe you are rationalizing, rather than reading what is there. The man fell away and Peter does not state he returned yet again. His last state is worse than his original state! This pretty much closes the door on him forever. I don't see where Peter says the man CAME BACK, so I think it is you presuming something not there.

I had written a longer post, but decided to just be succinct:

2 Peter shows someone who was worse off than before they were "saved". How could someone "WORSE OFF" still be saved??? That person would NOT be "worse off than before"!!! An "eternally saved person" cannot possibly be "worse off" than before being a saved person... Even if punished to a terrible temporal existence, he would be BETTER OFF, having eternal life 'guaranteed'...

No, it is clear, OSAS fails here.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

That's a relief. Some belief that after someone has accepted Jesus as there Lord and Savior, and wish to follow the ways of the Torah, they have fallen from grace. The only way to fall from grace, is to sin. So then that is saying the Torah is sin, and what was once considered perfect, holy and eternal (Psalms 119 and many other passages throughout the bible), is now relegated to being the evil step-child that should be cast away and not followed lest you fall from grace. That's reassuring and hallelujah God cannot be at enmity with himself. I'm interested in your studying and thoughts of Galatians and Romans, but maybe save that for another thread and time.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is a huge mistake that simply following the Torah is a fall from grace. I thought God was unchanging - and now He has turned everything upside? What was righteous and just is now sin and evil??? Sounds more like Allah than Yahweh. The Bible, OT and NT, is chock full of warnings to beware of legalism. External acts without internal disposition. THAT is what we are being warned of. Whether by the OT prophets (esp. the Minor ones like Amos), Jesus or Paul. It would seem odd that God would write "with His finger" a Law that was meant to trip people up and make them fall from grace at a later date, or that Paul would contradict himself and Jesus by teaching people to avoid the Torah.

Yes, another time on Romans/Galatians. ;)

Regards

 

[Deborah13]

I believe when people start talking about fate and that man has no free will - it leads to the concept of determinism. This is certainly not a Christian concept. The relationship between grace and nature and our interaction between God sees in eternity and what I do in the here and now are mysterious questions that will never be completely answered here.

Freedom has a number of definitions. Our society defines it as the ability to do what we want. Christians define it as our ability to do the will of God and what He has planned for us. Sin prevents us from being free (as per the Christian definition). When I am enslaved to sin, I am not free - I cannot do the will of God simultaneously. Sure, I can do what I want, with my wounded will, but I am not free to live the life that God desires me to live (which we believe, by faith, is for the better).

So in the passage in question, we find a man who WAS free from pollutions of the world. That fits in with the definition above. Freed from sin means Christian freedom. Now, you speak of being able to choose a moral question without God's "interference", but that is not the Christian definition of freedom. It is man's definition, our society. We are free when we are removed from the slavery of sin and can live our life to the fullest. There is no question here about whether the man was faking it, or didn't have enough "centi-faith-meters" on the "faith scale" that some people conjure up in their minds. HE WAS FREED FROM THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD. That is not possible without God gracing man and man receptive to that grace and not rejecting it. Clearly, the man was free. He subsequently chose to return to a path of sin. Being that concupiscence (the tendency to desire to sin) remains after we are washed in the waters of baptism, it is not impossible that a man would give up Godly freedom for "freedom" to return to sin, since our minds are often clouded and deluded to what is best for us.

Yes, we are freed from sin, but it doesn't follow that I cannot return to it. Christian freedom means that a NEW force is potentially leading me. The Holy Spirit. But it is not so overpowering that I cannot choose to "grieve" Him, as Paul warns against. Experience shows that we are still tempted and we still sin because we DO grieve the Spirit and sometimes do not listen to Him.

Regards

I believe we have "free will" and God will not violate that "free will". But we are not brought into submission by the law but by grace.

How does God teach a man to bring his wife into a place of submission? By Loving her so that she willingly submits. So it is with God and His bride, us.

If one is "forced to obey by making threats" they are not in willing submission only fear.

I believe God wants us by our "free will" to submit to Him willingly.

 

[childeye]

Again, "free will" as
defined by "doing what I want", I think one, even a Christian, retains that
ability.

Here I am left once again to question how "doing what I want" is verifiable.
Can a man do what he wants? Well no, not without Christ.

These are your well thought out words..."Freedom has a number of definitions. Our society defines it as the ability to do what we want. Christians define it as our ability to do the will of God and what He has planned for us. Sin prevents us from being free (as per the Christian definition). When I am enslaved to sin, I am not free - I cannot do the will of God simultaneously. Sure, I can do what I want, with my wounded will, but I am not free to live the life that God desires me to live (which we believe, by faith, is for the better)."

Romans 7:14-15

New International Version (NIV)

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.



2 Peter 1:1-4

New International Version (NIV)

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord
3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

 

[childeye]

I believe we have "free will" and God will not violate that "free will". But we are not brought into submission by the law but by grace.

How does God teach a man to bring his wife into a place of submission? By Loving her so that she willingly submits. So it is with God and His bride, us.

If one is "forced to obey by making threats" they are not in willing submission only fear.

I believe God wants us by our "free will" to submit to Him willingly.

A presumption since all is built upon faith. Lest we forget, that trust came first and submission was without question.

 

[Deborah13]

The grace of God shed abroad in our hearts is what brings us into submission to Him. He changes our hearts, our minds are renewed by the Word to take the mind of Christ. This is how we overcome.

Look at the Old Covenant of the Law. Did it keep the children of Israel in God's grace? No, they would obey for awhile then fall back over and over again.

God established a New Covenant, a better covenant He says, it is grace and grace and faith alone. It is not of the Law. Grace will make the changes we need to make in our lives because He lives in us, we are His workmanship not our own. When we quit trying to do and let Him do the doing.

 

[Deborah13]

A presumption since all is built upon faith. Lest we forget, that trust came first and submission was without question.

Do you know anyone that the Christian walk is perfect? If our faith was perfect in every area of our lives from the day we were born again there would be no need for repentance ever again. We would all walk in the Spirit at all times never ever would we need a moderator to tell grown adults to stop calling names.

We grow faith to faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Your faith matures by the indwelling and teaching of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in baby steps and sometimes in leaps and bounds.

 

[childeye]

The grace of God shed abroad in our hearts is what brings us into submission to Him. He changes our hearts, our minds are renewed by the Word to take the mind of Christ. This is how we overcome.

Look at the Old Covenant of the Law. Did it keep the children of Israel in God's grace? No, they would obey for awhile then fall back over and over again.

God established a New Covenant, a better covenant He says, it is grace and grace and faith alone. It is not of the Law. Grace will make the changes we need to make in our lives because He lives in us, we are His workmanship not our own. When we quit trying to do and let Him do the doing.

This is all well said. Please pardon my pet peeve concerning semantics. But note that here you have said that God has brought us into submission and He changes our hearts and minds. I Love that. That does not square with your earlier saying God would not violate our free will. As I see it, God is our Maker in every facet of our being, and the word "violate" cannot be applied to anything in us since there is no part where He is not welcome or is off limits to Him. Blessings unto you with all humility.

 

[gr8grace]

With all due respect, I believe you are rationalizing, rather than reading what is there. The man fell away and Peter does not state he returned yet again. His last state is worse than his original state! This pretty much closes the door on him forever. I don't see where Peter says the man CAME BACK, so I think it is you presuming something not there.

I had written a longer post, but decided to just be succinct:

2 Peter shows someone who was worse off than before they were "saved". How could someone "WORSE OFF" still be saved??? That person would NOT be "worse off than before"!!! An "eternally saved person" cannot possibly be "worse off" than before being a saved person... Even if punished to a terrible temporal existence, he would be BETTER OFF, having eternal life 'guaranteed'...

No, it is clear, OSAS fails here.

Regards

I am sorry, you must have misunderstood. I am not rationalizing eternal judgement, unending suffering,the lake of fire Into 2 Pet 2:20-22. In my opinion some are trying to force eternal things, or rationalize eternal judgement into these verses. And it is not there.

The worse off is in this life on earth. one has to force eternal judgement, hell,unending suffering into these verses. And one has to rationalize away the fact that Peter is talking about life on this earth for these believers. Believers are held to a higher standard. More is required of these believers now.

They would have been better off living the way they are as an unbeliever(before) because as a believer(now) much is required, and the discipline is more severe in this life.

Luke 12:47-48~~ 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

 

[childeye]

Do you know anyone that the Christian walk is perfect? If our faith was perfect in every area of our lives from the day we were born again there would be no need for repentance ever again. We would all walk in the Spirit at all times never ever would we need a moderator to tell grown adults to stop calling names.

We grow faith to faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Your faith matures by the indwelling and teaching of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in baby steps and sometimes in leaps and bounds.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I was refering to Adam and Eve before the fall when I said that all was built on faith. We began in trust and submission was without question. I apologize. I could have been more clear about that.

 

[Deborah13]

This is all well said. Please pardon my pet peeve concerning semantics. But note that here you have said that God has brought us into submission and He changes our hearts. I Love that. That does not square with your earlier saying God would not violate our free will. As I see it, God is our Maker in every facet of our being, and the word "violate" cannot be applied to anything in us since there is no part where He is not welcome or is off limits to Him. Blessings unto you with all humility.

I have no problem with your correcting the semantics, I was rather uncomfortable with the wording after I posted. We have to have a willing heart and we may not at all times but God is faithful to bring us to that place, this may be by some type of discipline or by just loving us so much that we grieve that we grieved Him.

 

[Deborah13]

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I was refering to Adam and Eve before the fall when I said that all was built on faith. We began in trust and submission was without question. I apologize. I could have been more clear about that.

Gotcha' now. Yes, when we began all was faith and submission. As we face things in this imperfect world we need to keep looking at Him and remember the place of honor He has given us as one of His own.

 

[childeye]

I have no problem with your correcting the semantics, I was rather uncomfortable with the wording after I posted. We have to have a willing heart and we may not at all times but God is faithful to bring us to that place, this may be by some type of discipline or by just loving us so much that we grieve that we grieved Him.

To be succinct, we were violated when we were subtly presented with slander against God in the garden of Eden.

 

[Deborah13]

To be succinct, we were violated when we were subtly presented with slander against God in the garden of Eden.

As "did God really say?" I think of it this way.

 

[childeye]

As "did God really say?" I think of it this way.

Are you refering to the slander? This is the subtle slander that I see.
Genesis 3:4-5

New International Version (NIV)

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


Note that Satan's words carry a subtle implication that god is a liar in verse 4. Satan then says in verse 5 that god doesn't want us to become like him. The implication is that god is holding us back from what we could become because that is what makes god better than us. This is the false Image of god that was sown into the subconcious of an innocent mankind.

 

[Mitspa]

Now, I'm not going to enter into the big debate going on, but I will respond to this post. I do agree with what you have wrote. What a wonderful passage it is in 2 Cor 3! I just read it and Behold, The grace of God! Thank God for grace! Here is a portion of it, meditate on this my fellow Christians!

2 Corinthians 3: 7-18

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Wow.

The veil that covered Moses face was to prevent the people from from seeing that the law was to vanish at the Glory of Christ. Even unto this day, those who look to the law are blinded to the truth that it has past for those who have turned to Christ. The greatest warnings of scripture is made to those who would turn away from the ministry of righteousness and the Spirit and go back to works of mans effort.
We are not without law, but we have new and better agreements based upon the FACT that Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Old Testament.
Repent those of you who go about to establish their own righteousness, and be found in Him, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith alone in Christ Jesus.

 

[Mitspa]

The way of the law is not to be laid on any man, righteous or unrighteous. Now that the way of the Spirit has been fully revealed ALL are to relate to God through the new way to righteousness--faith in Jesus Christ.

This new way of relating to God does not negate the commandments. It keeps them. We can tell who is not operating in the new way of the Spirit by whether they uphold the commandments or not.

This is what it means for the law to have ended. The law as the way to righteousness has ended and the new way to righteousness--faith in Christ--has been revealed. The mistake Protestants make is thinking the end of the law means quite literally the end of the law as if we don't have to keep it's righteous requirement anymore. We can thank the early church for that blunder.

The requirements of the law are summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' but which are specifically seen in commands like 'do not steal', 'do not covet', etc. These specific requirements of the law are fulfilled through the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of mere written words (Romans 7:6), but it's still the requirements of the law being served. And we have every right and responsibility to take note of who is upholding the requirements of the law (through the new way of the Spirit, not the written word) and who is not.

Well not sure of your point? But the law is good if it is used lawfully, it is not for the righteous (In Christ)

Also do you now attempt to teach me about how love fulfills the law? No man can look at the letter and keep it, but will be held in the bondage of his sin, The letter will produce desires to sin. No! one must first die to the law, and then live by the Spirit and through the spirit love. You have it all backwards just as before you attempt to justify the spirit by the letter. We are justified from any charge of the written code, Gods love is unconditional, we love because He first loved us. Until one has received Gods Love they cannot love as He Loves.
If one looks to justify themselves by the letter? They are in the flesh and they are not walking in the Spirit nor Gods Love.

 

[Mitspa]

True. Good points. You cannot earn a gift. But on the other hand, you can reject or abuse a gift, as well.

To anyone who thinks Paul abrogates the Law...

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

We follow God's Law by properly obeying it through an inner disposition of faith in God. We establish the Law through faith, not through "legalism", or as is interpreted in our Bibles "works of the law".

Gee I wonder if Paul wrote anything before or after that scripture that might give context to the truth of his point? Yes he did!
Rom 3:19 NOW we KNOW that what soever the law says it says to those who are under the law that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may become guilty before God.:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight for by the law is the knowlegde of sin.: BUT NOW the righteousness of God APART from the law is revealed. being witnessed by the law.
So then we see the context of making the law stand. For its purpose. To show the sinful flesh of all men and to bring all men to Christ that that might be "born-again" in spirit.
For God is a Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit.

So to lift this scripture out of its context and to use it to attempt to the lay the yoke of law, upon the righteous in Christ. Is "bearing false witness"

 

[Mitspa]

Was Paul being an 'accuser of the brethren' when he used the law that is spiritual (Romans 7:14) to judge the fellow at Corinth who was breaking the law (1 Corinthians 5)? Even saying this:

"12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”" (1 Corinthians 5:12-13 NIV)

In all of Pauls correction HE NEVER puts the believer back under the judgment of law, he does warn very clear that those who have the Spirit will answer to God for what God has given them. This is true biblical correction.
Also it is made clear in the second epistle that this man was restored to the Church fellowship. Paul used his spiritual rod, to bring correction, often turning over to satan those who taught a different gospel. Another warning for those who pervert the gospel!
So Paul never attempted to unsave anyone who was in Christ by the law. Even saying the punishment he gave was that the flesh would be punished that the spirit would be saved.

I have not in any way said that there is no correction nor warnings. My point is those who are under law are in the flesh, and have no biblical authority to teach or warn other believers. A man under law cannot judge according to righteous judgment.