Wip had to wip us.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
Thats funny stuff! I do appreciate all the opinions and even the fired up debates. I for one never want to think I do not have more to learn.
So we know that the blood of Christ cleanses from a defiled conscience. If I feel guilty, how exactly does someone elses blood make me feel right before God? I believe Mitspa already covered this. In fact there isn't much about it that Mitspa didn't address. Still perhaps I can ask this and take the conversation farther back. Was sin present before the law? Then what exactly are we guilty of?
Thanks Edward for your input. Yes it is true that sin was not imputed until the law according to scripture. So do you think we felt no guilt about it until the law?
Keep in mind if possible, that ultimately the blood of Christ must somehow cleanse my conscience.
It seems to me that If men didn't feel guilt, then they essentially wouldn't have a conscience till the law. Yes maybe Mitspa can help me. Still I appreciate your response.
francisdesales
Member
HA, I know some were directed at me from my notification page, but praise the Lord I didn't get to read them... Perhaps now we can get back to discussing Scriptures and learn something from each other...
Regards
francisdesales
Member
What is the purpose of it?? Why die to self if Christ covers you no matter what? I am just curious trying to piece this together - it doesn't make sense to me. What incentive do I have as a follower of Christ to die to self when I am told (according to ASOS interpretion) that it doesn't make any difference regarding salvation? Is it merely to prove myself to myself???
I am asking in all seriousness, as this doesn't appear to be based on logic, in my opinion.
And back to the topic, why do you think the passages posted on page 1 are not directed towards Christians who were faltering and in danger of being shut out of the Kingdom? Doesn't 2 Peter 2 give us an example of just such a thing?
Thanks
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Not having Faith is what I believe people were guilty of before the Law.
Great Question.
And I will take it even farther back. do you think Adam and Eve sinned against some of the future Law in the Garden? But the ONE thing that God ordered them not to do, they Did.
Jesus was teaching in the Garden in the cool of the day. And the written Law was not given yet and Jesus says that even a thought of some things are a sin.
Eve lusted to eat the fruit. In our established law,even lusting is a sin. Did Eve Sin before she ate?Or was She just held accountable for EATING it?(that was their law)
Do you guys think that God is not scared of our sin? And sin has never really been THE issue with God. The issue has always been salvation because of Sin. He was not suprised nor scared that we would Sin, the Issue has always been about believing God. And following God and it is our sin that gets in the way. And God took care of the Sin issue with His Son.
I think that is our major problem and always has been. Sin is our Focus and our problem. And God has fixed the Sin issue with His son and Just requires FAITH. We are so worried about Sin and God is just worried about Faith.
And this is what I think God was thinking before He gave us the Law. He was not really worried about Sin, because he knew that he had that covered with his Son. he Just wanted faith from the Sinners.
Just some random thoughts.
Ryan
Member
Mitspa,
Again, as in what Galatians is heavy about, is seeking to be justified outside of faith in Jesus. He never believed in Jesus before saving faith, so his works, lineage, Pharisee, everything was useless before relationship with Jesus. Faith must always precede obedience, or that is a "work of the law." But know we are in faith with Jesus, we are called to obedience.
Paul did not teach people to observe the law in order to be saved or justified. That was not the purpose of the law. He taught them to observe the law in order to honor God as they walked out the believers life in the footsteps of their Lord Jesus.
We received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (Romans 1:5)
And yes Mitspa, I agree with your last statement. Lets at least find some common ground please.
Deborah13
Member
I think man did have a conscience. When Cain killed Abel he lied to God, "Am I my brother keeper?" Why would he have lied if he didn't have a conscience.
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, they became aware of right and wrong. They hid from God.
However before they ate they relatiionship with God it seems would have been based on faith, God loves them, He takes care of them, in return they love and respect Him. Until...the deception.
M
Mitspa
Guest
First childeye, I read your PM this AM before I look on the thread, I go to bed early and I did not understand your question in the Pm.
The conscience of man was defiled at the fall, we see Adam and Eve attempt to cover and hide themselves from God. One can see that shame and guilt are not Gods intended position for man, and In Christ our conscience should be always washed from these things.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Man no doubt had conscience, and there has always been the righteous that have offered the Lamb to God, even before the law. We also can see that man has always attempted to justify himself in conscience? We see the man that said if God did not punish Cain for murder then he also would not be punished.
So the law came to make all men know Gods standard and that men were all sinners. So again to bring the law down to mans standard is to defeat its purpose. The law forced all those under it the sacrifice. And here there sin was covered.
Giving the conscience a sense of ease with God.
But one under law, will always have a sin conscience, this is not the gospel. One who has the Spirit, does not need the law to direct them. They have a higher law written upon the heart.
Through faith that must walk in the spirit, and leave behind the things of mans guilt and shame.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Well ryan, i do believe you have a sincere desire to please God and that you do desire to keep the law of God. There is no reason that a honest man should ever doubt that he can understand the gospel. First back to the issue in the book of Gal. Paul makes the point in clear terms that as one receives Christ by faith, that one must continue in Him by faith, the law is not of faith. Paul makes this statement" having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh.
I have alot to say on this issue, but must get to work.
I hope we can have an honest discussion of the topic?
Mitspa
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is my point:
"3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:3-4 NASB)
Fulfilling and upholding the law is NOT what ended*, but that seems to be what so many in the church think as evidenced by their belief that they can continue in sin (as defined by the law--the standard of righteousness) and still expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath because, supposedly, salvation is by faith and faith alone, which is simply not true (not to be confused with justification which is by faith all by itself). Unless you or others want to argue that James was wrong when he said a faith that doesn't uphold the law (see the examples he uses) can't save a person.
This hardened indoctrination in the church makes it almost impossible for the church to see this truth. As soon as you say the word 'law' up go the hands firmly clasped on the ears as if 'law' categorically means trying to be justified by law, the old way to righteousness, little knowing that the way of the Spirit they acknowledge (but really don't understand) is how we now fulfill the requirements of the law--requirements that did not go away with the appearing of the new way of faith in Christ to be made righteous--but requirements that are upheld by the new way of faith in Christ to be made righteous.
The fruit of the Spirit--love, joy, peace, patience, long suffering, etc. is how we uphold the law of God. Is it the person who is kind, and peaceable, and loving, and self-controlled the one who is trying to sleep with your wife at her workplace? No, of course not. When a person is controlled by the fruit of the Spirit they are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh condemned by the law, and in that way--the new way-- they are keeping, and satisfying, and upholding the requirements of the law. Now if you think that means trying to be justified by law because you want to satisfy it's requirements through the Spirit you really aren't getting the point.
* The ceremonial law is what was made obsolete and no longer needed by the work of Christ.
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francisdesales
Member
Excellent, esp. sentence 1...
Jesus FURTHERS what God expects from His followers in Matt 5:
"You have heard it said, but I say..."
That doesn't sound like the law is abrogated by Christ. It further separates the legalists from those who truly love their neighbor. Those who follow the Spirit will indeed be following the true intent of the Law - to not even look at another woman with lust, for example. Legalists will claim (as per the Mishna) that only actual penetration breaks the Law. Christ furthers the requirements of His followers; He does not lessen them.
The main difference between grace and the law is that with the former, we have grace - a gift of the Holy Spirit that enables us to obey the more stringent requirements laid upon Christians. The Law does not give us the ability to follow it - but follow it we are commanded to do. With grace from God.
Regards
Personaly I think you have nailed it on the head. We need to prove ourselves to ourselves if indeed upon knowing good and evil we saw that we were naked and hid from the God who made us ..
Those are some great random thoughts. I take from what you say, that the very moment mankind even considered eating from that which was forbidden by God, their faith in God was compromised in that instant, and that is what we are guilty of.
Great points. I am not sure Cain lied when he asked,"Am I my brothers keeper?" But his attitude was certainly not right.
Thanks Mitspa for explaining your PM. I think we are even, since I have already answered your PM and only now am reading this. A good lesson as to why we need mercy and understanding up front and to give people the beneift of the doubt no matter what. So let's put that behind us.
Yes it is true that something had changed in how we regarded ourselves and how we regarded God after eating of the knowledge of good and evil. If I am not mistaken, Gr8grace also went deeper and remarked that our faith was compromised when we even considered disobeying God. To me this is self evident and Ryan also points this out well in post #776 by saying that faith precedes obedience, subsequently lack of faith precedes disobedience. So here we see two things happen in the fall. One is lack of faith and the result is a sinful condition (separation from God) and a defiled conscience (guilt). Hence we cannot stand before God with a clean conscience and our sin is ever before His eyes. Having established that, I believe we are now ready to walk between the two halfs of the Lamb that has been split in two as a sin offering and a guilt offering.
And that leads us back to my first question which was, How exactly does the blood of the Lamb cleanse my conscience and make me Holy and Blameless before God? Anybody?
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Thanks for your response Edward. I have heard this explanation before. The problem for me, is that in my conscience I would not want somebody else to pay for my wrongdoing particularly the only begotten son of God, an innocent lamb placed on a cross of torture. I dare say I would feel guilty forever. I would rather die than live with that on my conscience. Some say that is pride, but I am not convinced it is. For to me, any wicked thief would be happy if someone else got framed for his crime, since he has no conscience. Moreover we have established what that guilt is, and it was not having faith in God. So how does Jesus' death erase my guilt?
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