Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Mitspa]

Wow, that was a long post of avoiding a simple question.

I didn't ask you to tell me how good you are or Who keeps you from having thoughts of murder. I am asking you "ARE YOU PERMITTED"?

It is a simple question. If not, please explain why not.

Regards

well I do not need the law of moses to tell me not to murder, for those who are under law are those who have murder in their heart. And I am not judged by Moses but by Christ. And my law is to love as He loves. So of course murder is not love.

Do you need the fear of being judged by the law, to keep you from murder? I do not and have no desire for such evil. Because God has given me a new heart and His law is written there. So I do not need to look to a written code of rules to know not to murder or steall etc... All I need is to walk in love.
Besides that I have not disagreed with the intention of the law at all. The intention is love. I uphold the law, and its purpose. To show all man as sinners and muderers at heart. This is why all men must be born-again and receive a new heart. The Holy Spirit which sheds Gods love abroad in the heart, and by this love we fulfill all the law and its demands.
This is pretty basic stuff. If you need the law to keep you from murder? I think you have some bigger issues than what I am posting on this thread? You should get right with God.

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Ryan, you are correct that the Law has not passed away. Why would it? If there were no Law how would one be brought to salvation in Christ? The Law has the same purpose it always did, but it cannot save. Jesus fulfilled the Law, paid the price. But there is still a need for the Law right up to the end.

Yes, the Law is still in force - and even more "strict", as Jesus defines it in the Sermon on the Mount. He tells us that He did not come to destroy the Law - and goes on to explain it with 6 examples of how to further and more perfectly keep it!!!

It would be very strange that Jesus intended on abrogating the Law and THEN telling us how to fulfill/perfect it by praying properly, giving alms, not having lust in our heart, etc...

But some think just that!!!

And just as before, the Spirit of God enables us to obey the Law taught by Christ. He removed the penalty of breaking the Law by His Most Holy Body's death. But faith in God has ALWAYS been the means by which one is justified before God. Otherwise, Romans 4 makes no sense.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

well I do not need the law of moses to tell me not to murder, for those who are under law are those who have murder in their heart. And I am not judged by Moses but by Christ. And my law is to love as He loves. So of course murder is not love.

Can you answer a simple question or not? Stop beating around the bush.

Are you, as a follower of Christ, permitted to murder/commit adultery/lie - whatever sin you want to speak of???

Simply state "Yes" or "No".

If "No", please explain why.

Is this too difficult for you? I am not asking for preaching. I am asking a simple question.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

For some reason this reminds me of when I see two people embracing one another. I cannot tell if they are taking or giving since they appear to do both. Ahh the semantics of words. At any rate whether giving or taking, it is pure since both words have come to mean the same thing even though they approach from opposite perspectives.

Some people just Love Him because they know Him, not because they were commanded to. Nonetheless, the commandment is valid per common sense, but is unnecessary for those who know Him..

Exactly. The Law is in force. MORE SO! Not only are we told not to have vaginal sex with someone who is not our wife, but we are told not even to have lust in our heart for her. Oh, the legalists were quite upset to hear the spiritual INTENT of the Law.

But because of the Holy Spirit given to us, we CAN do this more stringent requirement. We do so, not out of obligating God, but out of love of God.

This is similar to the following modern day example.

I work for Fred. Monday through Friday, I come to work and he pays me for what I do.
Fred is a great guy. I like him a lot. He asks me to come by his house Saturday and give him a hand helping him move.
I say, "sure".
Now, why do I do this? I do not expect to be paid. I am working. I do this out of love of Fred. Out of the goodness of Fred's heart (and I know he is a great guy), he buys me dinner and gives me some money.
NOT OUT OF OBLIGATION, BUT OUT OF FRED BEING RIGHTEOUS.

And so with God. We trust that God will reward us eternal life because He is righteous. Not because He owes us.

Regards

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, the Law is still in force - and even more "strict", as Jesus defines it in the Sermon on the Mount. He tells us that He did not come to destroy the Law - and goes on to explain it with 6 examples of how to further and more perfectly keep it!!!

And just as before, the Spirit of God enables us to obey the Law taught by Christ. He removed the penalty of breaking the Law by His Most Holy Body's death. But faith in God has ALWAYS been the means by which one is justified before God. Otherwise, Romans 4 makes no sense. Regards

What was the penalty of breaking the Law that He removed?

 

[Ryan]

What was the penalty of breaking the Law that He removed?

Hi Deborah, good talking to you again and thank you for your prayers.

Don't wanna step on Francis's toes, but the curse of the law is breaking God's commandments that results in death. Starting back with Adam

Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.â€

Genesis 3:3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’â€

That's what was removed, the curse of sin and death. Not the commandment, but the consequences for disobedience and removing that curse of death for all who call upon Jesus's name and believe. My understanding anyways and the cliff's note version.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deborah, good talking to you again and thank you for your prayers.

Don't wanna step on Francis's toes, but the curse of the law is breaking God's commandments that results in death. Starting back with Adam

Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”

That's what was removed, the curse of sin and death. Not the commandment, but the consequences for disobedience and removing that curse of death for all who call upon Jesus's name and believe. My understanding anyways and the cliff's note version.

I agree, the curse of sin and death.
The Law is the schoolmaster that brings one to the a humble state of recognizing themselves as a sinner against a Holy God and in need of a Savior.
Prayers still going up for you and your's.

 

[Ryan]

I agree, the curse of sin and death.
The Law is the schoolmaster that brings one to the a humble state of recognizing themselves as a sinner against a Holy God and in need of a Savior.
Prayers still going up for you and your's.

Thank you and God bless.

 

[gr8grace]

Can you answer a simple question or not? Stop beating around the bush.

Are you, as a follower of Christ, permitted to murder/commit adultery/lie - whatever sin you want to speak of???

Simply state "Yes" or "No".

If "No", please explain why.

Is this too difficult for you? I am not asking for preaching. I am asking a simple question.

Regards

I will answer that, YEP. If it was not permitted by God we would have never even heard of it right? We would not even know to ask the question right? None of those things would EVER happen if God did not permit it.(how big is Grace? one stumbles and God still has you!) Remember that Jesus said even the thought of hate is murder. Can any of us Honestly say that a thought of Hate has not passed our minds?

There is NO sin Bigger than the SON and I can try with ALL my might to change Gods(immutable) promise to save those who believe.

BUT~~One who is truly born again should know that that is not the inclination of a truly born again person.

We lie to ourselves if we think that we are not CAPABLE of doing all those things. And if we convince our selves that we are above all those things and we are no longer capable of doing those things , that is where the believer is in SERIOUS trouble. Thinking those things is the same as DOING them.

MUCH is said with the question above though.

Cheap grace, easy believism are terms from religion that attack FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE.

One who is truly born again should know that that is not the inclination of a born again person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not sure of your point here jethro?
Are you saying that we are under the law but we should know that we cannot keep it?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Those who have died in Christ are no longer under the authority of the law: "(T)he law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives" Romans 7:1 NIV.

It is those who know that they can not keep the law and who have fled to Christ and have died who are released from the authority of the law to hold them fast in their sin and condemn them as sinners.

Upholding the requirements of the law, "do not murder", "do not covet", etc., through the new way of the Spirit (kindness, gentleness, self-control, etc.) is NOT being under the authority of the law. It is being under the authority of the Spirit. Only people who have died in Christ are under that new authority, the Spirit. And that new way of the Spirit (kindness, gentleness, self-control, etc.) does what the old way of the law could not do--it upholds what the law requires. In fact, upholding the law (satisfying it's requirements to not harm others) is the mark of the one who is not under the authority of the law anymore. Go figure.

No God has given us two simple commandments and in these two simple commandments all that God has commanmded is fulfilled. Believe in His Son, and love as He gave commandment. This is the simplicity of Christ.
The royal law of love and the law of faith.

No question about it. That's what being under the authority of the Spirit, who works love, joy, peace, and patience, etc. in us does--it violates no requirement of law.

Paul said it this way? NOTHING PROFITS ANYTHING BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.

In context, what he's saying is nothing counts towards being justified except faith. Faith that can be seen in the obedience of love (the summation and goal of the law). Not even the work of love does the justifying (making one legally righteous before God). Love is the signature, the outward manifestation of the only thing that counts towards justification, our faith.

Love is the mature fruit of the faith that justifies and is the expected outcome, or consequence of justifying faith. That's how faith can do the justifying all by itself, but still be required to be accompanied by love, the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Mitspa]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Those who have died in Christ are no longer under the authority of the law: "(T)he law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives" Romans 7:1 NIV.

It is those who know that they can not keep the law and who have fled to Christ and have died who are released from the authority of the law to hold them fast in their sin and condemn them as sinners.

Upholding the requirements of the law, "do not murder", "do not covet", etc., through the new way of the Spirit (kindness, gentleness, self-control, etc.) is NOT being under the authority of the law. It is being under the authority of the Spirit. Only people who have died in Christ are under that new authority, the Spirit. And that new way of the Spirit (kindness, gentleness, self-control, etc.) does what the old way of the law could not do--it upholds what the law requires. In fact, upholding the law (satisfying it's requirements to not harm others) is the mark of the one who is not under the authority of the law anymore. Go figure.




No question about it. That's what being under the authority of the Spirit, who works love, joy, peace, and patience, etc. in us does--it violates no requirement of law.




In context, what he's saying is nothing counts towards being justified except faith. Faith that can be seen in the obedience of love (the summation and goal of the law). Not even the work of love does the justifying (making one legally righteous before God). Love is the signature, the outward manifestation of the only thing that counts towards justification, our faith.

Love is the mature fruit of the faith that justifies and is the expected outcome, or consequence of justifying faith. That's how faith can do the justifying all by itself, but still be required to be accompanied by love, the fulfillment of the law.

I think we are in agreement in very large degree? But again I say that the written code cannot judge the spirit. It is the spirit that justifies and makes known the purpose and truth of the the written code.
So one could not go in a big circle of how the written code was fulfilled in the spirit and therefore we must look to the written code. No we look to Christ alone for He is the living Word and the express Image of God. No man can know or understand the word unless they behold His Image. No man can know His Image, but by grace.
No man can see God, through the law. All men from least to the greatest can know Him by grace.

 

[Mitspa]

Hi Ryan, you are correct that the Law has not passed away. Why would it? If there were no Law how would one be brought to salvation in Christ? The Law has the same purpose it always did, but it cannot save. Jesus fulfilled the Law, paid the price. But there is still a need for the Law right up to the end.

I wanted to add to your post Deb, I see that you have a friendship with Ryan and are seeking to help Him find the Way to life. In the eyes of the Father the whole world is under judgment by the law. Those who have not entered into Christ are as those who would not enter into the Ark of Noah.For Noah found grace in the sight of God.
Heb 10:19-20 Having therefore boldness brethren to enter into the holiest by the Blood of Jesus.
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say His flesh.
We see this picture throughout the Old Testament? The cleft of the rock, the ark. The Blood applied to the door post. etc..

All a picture of being saved from the judgment to come.
When Lord Himself walked the earth he told the jews, "do not think that I will judge you, there is one who judges you. Moses in whom you trust." He said He did not come to judge but to save.
The judgement upon man was given by the law, all men are guilty under the law, and any man who thinks otherwise is just foolish and dishonest.
So yes the law will continue until this earth passes away.
But the BELIEVER- born again! has entered into Christ Himself. We have been "saved" from the law and its judgment.
We are IN CHRIST! we are not of this world, even though we are in these earthen vessels.
This is why we are told to reckon ourselves dead to the law and alive to God in spirit.
THE LAW OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS SET ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
this is the gospel "good news" that we have been saved from the law of sin and death.

 

[Ryan]

Ya know Mitspa, Deborah and I disagree on several areas, but in spite of that, we both can default to the two commandments that hang the rest of the commandments. Love God and love your neighbour. We both can disagree with each other with gentleness and humbleness, and not let our pride get in the way. She has never questioned my salvation, so why do you?

And if my salvation was in jeopardy, why is a teacher of the bible not demonstrating the same love that a shepherd has for tending his flock? One done out of gentleness, respect, compassion and love? Why are you attacking me?

 

[Mitspa]

Ya know Mitspa, Deborah and I disagree on several areas, but in spite of that, we both can default to the two commandments that hang the rest of the commandments. Love God and love your neighbour. We both can disagree with each other with gentleness and humbleness, and not let our pride get in the way. She has never questioned my salvation, so why do you?

And if my salvation was in jeopardy, why is a teacher of the bible not demonstrating the same love that a shepherd has for tending his flock? One done out of gentleness, respect, compassion and love? Why are you attacking me?

Well ryan, you are the one that has "NO" as to your condition as a christian.
I have not attack you, nor would I. I stand against all those who teach false doctrine. Just as Paul did, I do also.
Now if you see yourself under the law? Judge yourself by the law, but you will not judge me by that standard.
I did not notice that you did not consider yourself as a christian, until I seen that yesterday on your post. I must say that it is a very odd thing to see one who claims they are not a "christain" be offended because others would question their right and ability to enter into the discussion of spiritual truth.
Now Christianity is not a hobby, nor is it a game. If you have questions about the true faith and have come to learn? I see no fault in that, but you are in no position to teach others anything as it relates to the gospel.
So as the Lord said, do not think that I come to bring peace, but a sword. For if my words cut you? It is for your own good. Let every knee bow and let every tongue confess, let the proud be made humble, and let the humble be exalted.

 

[Mitspa]

This is another amazing thing to me? Those who go about to correct others and bring the judgment of the law upon others.
Seem so offended when they feel others are judging them? So they are free to correct and bring charges against others, to warn others, but seem to get really upset when the righteous judge them. Like I have said on this thread before, judge not lest ye be judged. Get the log out of your own eye before you go about to correct others.

Heb 7:12-19
for in that the priesthood has changed, there is made also a necessity a removing of the law.
16 Who is made not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of a endless life.
18 FOR THERE IS INDEED A DISANNULLING OF THE COMMANMANTS going forward, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 FOR THE LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by which we draw near to God.

 

[Ryan]

Why would me not checking yes or no matter to you? Good thing I answer to Jesus, and to him alone. I have chosen to follow the teachings and the customs that Jesus taught and practiced. Is that a sin?

 

[Mitspa]

Why would me not checking yes or no matter to you? Good thing I answer to Jesus, and to him alone. I have chosen to follow the teachings and the customs that Jesus taught and practiced. Is that a sin?

Well it is a sin according to the law, you say you are keeping, to bear false witness. So in that you try to present yourself as both a believer and a non-believer, you are in fact breaking this law. So as always, those who claim to be keeping the law of moses, are shown to be breakers of the law. Paul makes this very point in very clear terms.

 

[Ryan]

Does one have to call themselves a Christian to be saved? Can I not be a believer in Jesus and not resort myself to labelling myself with man made terms?

 

[Mitspa]

See this is why the leaven of hypocricy must be purged from ones own eye before one can see to help another. It is shown that those who seem to enjoy judging others by the law, do not enjoy being judged by the law themselves. They will lay its burden upon others as often as they can, but they themselves are so blind to see that they break it without any regard to its standard.

 

[Ryan]

Didn't want to, or couldn't answer my questions? It's a beautiful day, I'm going to go enjoy it. Blessings