Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Sparkey]

I say and I warn those who warn others. Christ Jesus was the Word made flesh he was the law and the prophets in all their intention was to speak of Him. He alone fulfilled that which the written code intended. We see the law fulfilled as He walked the earth. We see that which the prophets wrote fulfilled in Him alone. He was the Word of God! We see that man in his very best attempts to keep the written code of law, are the very ones who deny Christ. For God stood in their midst and they sought how they might kill Him. We see in His Love for man the intention of the law. We see that the law is not fulfilled when we do not steal but when we love the thief as He loves us.

So I again warn you who warn others, God desires mercy and not sacrifice. For judgement will be without mercy for those who have shown no mercy, but mercy will rejoice over judgment.

Would the word "admonish" include warning? I'm thinking "noutheteō" and "nouthesia"; admonish and admonition.

 

[Mitspa]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying. I would like to add some comments and discuss a few things you said - and see what you think - but I'm going to be busy today. So please bear with me, I'll get back to this either later today or tommorrow.

I think one of the Bible's biggest themes is touched on the our daily Mass reading:

"You (God) planted them. They have taken root, they keep on growing and bearing fruit. You are upon their lips, but far from their innermost thoughts. You, O Lord, know me, you see me, you have found that at heart I am with you." Jeremiah 12:2

The contrast between the faithful follower of God and the one who does outward works of the Torah, but no faithful and God-seeking inner disposition. It is "everywhere" in the OT. Legalists vs Lovers of God. That is the great argument of Paul in Romans. The Jews, with their Torah, were not "real Jews", circumcised only on the outside, while some Gentiles showed that they had a "Law" on their hearts (and were going to heaven...), being "true Jews" because they were spiritually circumcised. Having the Law did not guarantee anything for the legalist.

I'll comment on James 2 later, suffise to say that it is addressed to legalists who are trying to earn salvation, not those under grace, who have had an inner conversion and are CONTINUING to follow the original designs of the Torah - faithful worship, praise and love of God, and love of our neighbor.

Btw, the etymology of "Jew" is "praiser of God". Paul is saying that a true Jew is not one born a Jew, or who follows the Law legalistically, but one is a Jew who actually pursues the Lord and praises Him with a humble heart.

More to come later,

Thanks and God Bless.

Ok francis, here I find we are in a place of agreement. We can find some common ground on this issue, if you like? Now it is clear that this circumcision is by and with the Spirit. For it is the Spirits work to cut away from the heart the "flesh" and its desires for the things of this world. Now Paul spends great time and effort to prove that a man can attempt to keep the written code of the law, by the flesh. This attempt is rejected by God. For God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.

So Paul explains that the very law and commandments that we look to keep will in fact hold us in bondage to the flesh and the sin that dwells in the flesh. So we must reckon ourselves dead to the law and alive to God by the Spirit. So we are in fact justified in spirit not in flesh. Our task as believers is to walk in the spirit, renew the mind or "soul" unto the Image of Christ, through the ministry of righteousness, which is the New Covenant.

Now I must say that unless one has a confidence in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a trust that Gods love cannot be removed from them, they can never be brought into the perfection of the Image of Christ.

The ability to walk in the Spirit is dependent upon one acceptance that for the believer the law is finished as it relates to any power to justify or make a charge of sin.

When one understands this and sees the purpose of the law, they use the law as a witness to the righteousness working in us by the Spirit of God.
But any attempt to turn back to the written code is in fact a seperation from Christ and His free grace.

 

[Mitspa]

Would the word "admonish" include warning? I'm thinking "noutheteō" and "nouthesia"; admonish and admonition.

Well I guess it could? seeing that it means to put in mind, I think it could reach the level or being call a warning? But in general it seems to have a gentle to strong use in scripture.
I guess it like many things in the Greek and in the scriptures? Context is as much truth as how a word is defined

 

[childeye]

Well I guess it could? seeing that it means to put in mind, I think it could reach the level or being call a warning? But in general it seems to have a gentle to strong use in scripture.
I guess it like many things in the Greek and in the scriptures? Context is as much truth as how a word is defined

An interesting comment. No wonder that one can stand accused for both saying something and saying nothing. That is not meant to be taken as an accusation, only an observation.

 

[Mitspa]

An interesting comment. No wonder that one can stand accused for both saying something and saying nothing. That is not meant to be taken as an accusation, only an observation.

Yes I have been both accused of teaching unheard of and "lunitic" things on this thread and also that I am so deceived by traditions that I cannot have a thought outside of what is mainstream. Lol
But if one looks up the word hawk was pointing to, it is used both in a gentle sense as to remind each other of the truth, and as a word that descibes that which could be called a strong warning. As in Acts 20:31

 

[francisdesales]

So if all men have the element of sin in their flesh, as the scriptures clearly teach, there is no way to keep the law by the flesh. We must walk in the Spirit and the Spirit will love others through us , thus we are to set our minds on Gods love, not the written code. We must die to the law and "reckon" all attempts of the flesh to keep the written code as vain and useless. So the intention of the commandment is not fulfilled by the flesh of man, but by the Spirit of God. Even in this there is therefore now no condemnation. So even as we learn the ways of the Spirit and move into this perfect love, the law CANNOT make a charge of sin against the believer, for he is justified by Christ. So the law stands as a witness to Christ only.

Can you cite anything that I said the implies that we can keep the Law by our own abilities WITHOUT GOD???

Of course not. Look at my signature line...

We are to go beyond the "written code". That means our interpretation of the Law goes BEYOND the legalist views of Torah obedience. Have you read Matthew 5? "You have heard it said, but I tell you..."

Those are not the words of One Who intends on doing away with the Torah - NO, He fully intends to KEEP IT EVEN MORE STRINGENTLY. Not by the letter of the Law, but by the intent of the spirit of the law.

Jewish mishna delineated what included breaking the sin of adultery. Numerous "lines" were drawn, behaviour cited. Lustfull looks. OK. Kissing? Fine. Oral sex. Not adultery. Only vaginal penetration was considering a breaking of the Law. As anyone who steps back and thinks about it, the desire to even DRAW such 'lines' to define adultery already has the wrong intent of the heart. Clearly, looking at someone with lust was breaking the spirit of the law. Following the LETTER of the law was NOT what God desired. Can we agree there? Jesus is calling for the true meaning to be fulfilled - and as the Messiah (Jeremiah prophesied that the Messiah would explain more deeply this new covenant - Sermon on the Mount), Jesus explains the TRUE meaning of Torah. And this CERTAINLY CAN be followed, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, Who is poured out lavishly in this age.

Where does Jesus state that the Law is abrogated or that His followers no longer have to obey Torah because "he fulfilled it"? NOWHERE!!! He states the opposite! I think you are misunderstanding Paul's words regarding the Law. As I stated before, we have to be careful - and remember, Paul did not have a term like we do that means "legalism".

You misunderstand what "fulfill" means. It means to keep it perfectly and in the sense as intended by the Divine Lawgiver. Not that it no longer applies and is finished!!! It is an ETERNAL LAW!!! Perish the thought, Paul said "NO" as to the rhetorical question on whether faith destroys the need to keep the Law!!! His point is that we must keep it as intend - by faith. Not by empty moving of the lips.

As to James 2:12-13

Love, the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) does freely what God's Torah requires (ie Rom 13:8-10). This is what Jeremiah meant in promising that under a new covenant, the Torah would be written on the hearts of God's People by GOD HIMSELF. However, as in anything good, there is a risk of abuse and that freedom will be abused and perverted into license to sin. James reminds us here that even though under the New Covenant, the Torah gives freedom, nevertheless, the Torah REMAINS the standard for JUDGMENT, since God's people will also be judged by whether they follow it or not (Rom 2:12-13).

A person will know that we are followers of Christ by our Love, the fulfillment of Torah. This can only be done by the Supreme Lawmaker writing on our hearts a Torah, and we then follow it. We become spiritually circumcised. Because of the One writing on our hearts. It's all in Romans 2.

As to the idea that "no one can follow the Law", there are numerous cases of men doing just that. Have you read Luke 1:6? This is well before Jesus died on the cross. Why are they just? Because they walked in the ways of the Lord - and they would be the first to admit it was because of the Lord, who guides us (as the long Psalm 119 clearly points out)

Read Psalm 40, for example. And if you think it applies to ONLY Jesus, read it more carefully and ask about verse 8 and how they can apply to the Christ, who was and will always be sinless, according to Hebrews. The Law is not too difficult to keep, when we turn to God. Says Moses who gave the law to the people. He states this through DIVINE INSPIRATION.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Ok francis, here I find we are in a place of agreement. We can find some common ground on this issue, if you like?

OK, now that I see your responses are more respectful, I will now respond to you with the hope that we can learn from each other, rather than trying to bury each other. I'm trying to put those days behind me...

Now it is clear that this circumcision is by and with the Spirit. For it is the Spirits work to cut away from the heart the "flesh" and its desires for the things of this world. Now Paul spends great time and effort to prove that a man can attempt to keep the written code of the law, by the flesh. This attempt is rejected by God. For God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.

Agreed, no one can obey God without the aid of God. Faith, repentance, works of love, hope. They all must be stirred up within us by God Himself. Otherwise, our acts tend towards evil motivation, and very rarely do we forgive or love for the sake of the other - but rather, for our own ulterior motives. Everything we do, without God, has some tinge of selfishness attached to it, because without the Spirit, we are of the flesh. Ourselves.

So Paul explains that the very law and commandments that we look to keep will in fact hold us in bondage to the flesh and the sin that dwells in the flesh. So we must reckon ourselves dead to the law and alive to God by the Spirit. So we are in fact justified in spirit not in flesh. Our task as believers is to walk in the spirit, renew the mind or "soul" unto the Image of Christ, through the ministry of righteousness, which is the New Covenant.

Yes, it may seem complex, but it all begins to make sense when we understand that Paul is not attacking the Law, per sec, but how we follow it. How we uphold the dictates of the Law will be our judge. But as the OT clearly details, we can "follow the dictates of the Law" in the external sense. And this can happen today. I could kill lambs and not eat pork and obey all the little rules and regulations, but cheat people, not provide for people in need (widows and orphans have a special place in the OT) if I was a legalistic Jew - and think that now God owed me a reward. Same today, I could appear at church once a week, do all the little things required by my religious leaders, but have a terrible heart and treat people poorly.

As a faithful follower of God, I would be doing the SAME THINGS externally. Killing lambs, not eating pork, going to church once a week, etc. God said we are to do that. But we must not just have God's praise "on our lips", but in our heart as well. What does James say about TRUE religion? As followers of Christ, we are to follow the Torah even MORE intently, but we have the help of the Holy Spirit, Who enables us to love and turn to God from the heart.

Now I must say that unless one has a confidence in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a trust that Gods love cannot be removed from them, they can never be brought into the perfection of the Image of Christ.

We know God's Spirit dwells in us AS WE OBEY THE TORAH. That is our "proof", sir. When we look at ourselves, and we can say "I am trying to follow Christ and I see I am obeying God's Commandments", we MUST CONCLUDE that God is present, since WE CANNOT DO THIS ALONE!!! Now, as to not being removed, I would disagree, since when I do sin, and sin on purpose, I think, vice versus, that this is proof that the Spirit of God is NOT within us - at least where He is actively directing us and guiding us. Our relationship has suffered. Fortunately, we have a High Priest Who CONTINUES to intercede for us. Even today, when/if I sin. First John 1 details these ideas.

The ability to walk in the Spirit is dependent upon one acceptance that for the believer the law is finished as it relates to any power to justify or make a charge of sin.

No, I again disagree, the Law is NOT done. We still cannot murder, lie, commit adultery. Paul is very clear - in five or six places - that those who do THOSE things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM. Romans, Galatians, 1st Corinthains, Ephesians, at least these come immediately to mind. The Law is "finished" (or Romans 7:4, if you will) only in several aspects {Paul uses an example of marriage. Note, the remaining spouse is freed from only PART of the Law - that part relating to the now deceased spouse. The other aspects of the Law still apply. The sense is that only some parts of the Law no longer apply NOW because of Christ}

1 It's capacity to stir up sin in him (v5-14) The fault is with us, not the Torah. The Torah is beneficial to the faithful follower of God.
2 its capacity to produce irremiadiable guilt feelings (v 15-25). Feelings no longer irremiadiable because we can now trust in Jesus and repent.
3 It is through the Messiah's Body, His death, that believers are made dead to the PENALTIES set forth by the Torah for disobeying it. (Gal 3:13) Now, we can bear fruit for God (doing good deeds)

When one understands this and sees the purpose of the law, they use the law as a witness to the righteousness working in us by the Spirit of God.
But any attempt to turn back to the written code is in fact a seperation from Christ and His free grace.

I am not suggesting that we follow the "written code" in the sense that I legally uphold precepts of the Law WITHOUT inner conversion. As a follower of Christ, I am STILL under a responsibility to follow the Torah and NOT kill. This Law has been expanded to include even calling my brother "fool". I can be subject to judgment, says the Christ.

The trick, Mitspa, is to realize that there is two ways to follow the Law. Either we can follow it externally, with a legalistic mindset and no intentions on actually turning to God within our heart - and demand that God owes us a reward for following the Law literally (but not the intent, see my discussion on adultery) OR we can follow those same dictates, but do so out of love for God, turning to Him and BEGGING for mercy and to send His Most Holy Spirit to reside within us so that we can be TRANSFORMED into another Christ and share in the divine nature - this will enable us to go BEYOND the "written code" in our obedience to God.

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

Well that did not go very well! lol
Ok lets try this? Rom 7:7-8 What shall we say? is the law sin? certainly not! but I would not have known sin but through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
8 but sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desires. For apart from the law sin is dead.
Now please explain how we are to keep a law that produces in us a desire to sin? Please explain what Paul says we must die to the law? Please explain why the Ten Commandments are called the ministry of death and condemnation, in 2 Cor 3
And the New Covenant is called the ministry of righteousness and the Spirit?

Let me say this, that no man has kept the first commandment until the Holy Spirit has shed Gods love in their heart. Then we love Him based upon His love for us. No need for a commandment it is by the Spirit. No man can love God apart from receivIng His Love. WE LOVE HIM, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

so it is not based upon the written code, but based upon the commandment of Christ? This is My Commandment That you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. only in this is the intention of the law fulfilled through us. So we are not looking to the written code, we are looking to Christ. Read 2 Cor 3

 

[Mitspa]

Well that did not go very well! lol
Ok lets try this? Rom 7:7-8 What shall we say? is the law sin? certainly not! but I would not have known sin but through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
8 but sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desires. For apart from the law sin is dead.
Now please explain how we are to keep a law that produces in us a desire to sin? Please explain what Paul says we must die to the law? Please explain why the Ten Commandments are called the ministry of death and condemnation, in 2 Cor 3
And the New Covenant is called the ministry of righteousness and the Spirit?

Let me say this, that no man has kept the first commandment until the Holy Spirit has shed Gods love in their heart. Then we love Him based upon His love for us. No need for a commandment it is by the Spirit. No man can love God apart from receivIng His Love. WE LOVE HIM, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

so it is not based upon the written code, but based upon the commandment of Christ? This is My Commandment That you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. only in this is the intention of the law fulfilled through us. So we are not looking to the written code, we are looking to Christ. Read 2 Cor 3

To deny that Christ was the "Word made flesh" and He alone was the fulfillment of the law and the phophets. Is the great warning of John? This is the spirit of antichrist.
All doctrines that work to bring back the law upon those who are justified in Christ, are of the doctrines of deamons.
For those who teach such things, have given heed to seducing spirits.
Now again I say those who seek to warn others? should be warning themselves.

 

[Mitspa]

Any Father that loves their child will correct that child, it cannot be any other way.
Now what a Father does not do is seperate the child from His Love nor does He kick the child out of the family.
Because only when one is confident in their eternal standing as a child of God, and when they know and trust the Fathers unconditional love are they taught by grace to live godly lives.

God has not given us a spirit of bondage again to fear, but the Spirit of sonship that cries Abba Father.

Much of the correction I have seen on this thread is not biblical at all, but just the anger, guilt and bondage that some feel being directed at others.

 

[francisdesales]

Well that did not go very well! lol
Ok lets try this? Rom 7:7-8 What shall we say? is the law sin? certainly not! but I would not have known sin but through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
8 but sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desires. For apart from the law sin is dead.
Now please explain how we are to keep a law that produces in us a desire to sin?

I presume you are speaking to me, so I'll answer. Please let me know if I am mistaken.

At 2:18, 3:20, 5:13, 5:20, and the last verses you refer to in Romans 7, it appears that Paul is saying that the Law makes people sin. Perhaps you are jumping to conclusions that the Torah ITSELF is sinful (or is "sin). He answers HEAVEN FORBID. I think that means NO, the Law doesn't make people sin. He then goes on in 7:7-14 to point out (and provide corrections to those who misinterpret him) that the Torah is "holy, just and good". The Torah CAN stir up sin. But that is not the Torah's fault. It is OUR fault.

THou shall not covet can be broken without an external act. It is the consideration of a sinful act within our hearts. That is sin. This is a prime example to PROVE that the Torah cannot be construed as a set of behaviour rules to be followed LEGALISTICALLY.

Sin, the "evil inclination" is unconquerable here and through v 25. WHAT CAN I DO, says Paul? What course of action can I take, to follow God, with this inclination within me? ARGGGHHH!
ONLY through the aid of the Spirit of God can I overcome this inclination to sin.

The outward application of the Torah "creates violations" even though it is holy. The Torah, as God's teaching and His provacation of the conscience (Rom 2:14-15) "creates" sin - as Paul describes in the following verses. It is not the Torah ITSELF that is sinful, but our concupiscence/evil inclinations that are stirred up by the Law that we are not supposed to break.

It is our own fault that we sin. The Law merely points it out, attacks our conscience when we fail, and results in the anxiety that Paul describes - until we turn to Christ and His Spirit (as Romans 8 will continue)

Please explain what Paul says we must die to the law? Please explain why the Ten Commandments are called the ministry of death and condemnation, in 2 Cor 3
And the New Covenant is called the ministry of righteousness and the Spirit?

How is it that the written text of the Torah brings death? How can he say something that is holy kills? He doesn't answer that question here. But he does explain how the Torah can be said to bring death for four reasons:

1 It describes death as a penalty for sin. (Rom 5)
2. In defining transgressions, it increases our sin (Gal 3), which leads to death
3. It provides a chance for sinful people to pervert God's Law into legalism, a DEAD SYSTEM of rules intended to circumvent the TRUE intent of the Law (for example, Korban, as Jesus explains in Mark). We cannot earn favor with God if we don't trust in God.
4. It does not have within itself (within the stone tablets) the power to grant life. That is dependent upon the Spirit of God (Rom 8)

SHOCKING! The Jews must have been quite amazed that the Torah could be called an instrument of death. Jesus recognize that the Torah was an instrument of life (John 5:39)

The important thing to realize is that the SPIRIT OF GOD gives life to sinners who are "dead in their sin". Only the Spirit of God gives life to the Torah ITSELF, to its "letter" In other words, the Torah becomes a "tree of life" and not a ministry of death when we are filled with the Spirit of God given to us by Jesus. The best commentary follows your passage of ROmans 7. Romans 8:1-11.

Let me say this, that no man has kept the first commandment until the Holy Spirit has shed Gods love in their heart. Then we love Him based upon His love for us. No need for a commandment it is by the Spirit. No man can love God apart from receivIng His Love. WE LOVE HIM, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

Yes, we do. But that doesn't abrogate the Law, the requirement laid upon man who is in a COVENANT with the Lord God Almighty. Jesus yoke is easy. Oddly, He requires MORE from us - to die to self. But it is yet a lighter burden to carry, with God's aid.

so it is not based upon the written code, but based upon the commandment of Christ?

The commandment of Christ is a SUMMATION of the written code. And much more.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

To deny that Christ was the "Word made flesh" and He alone was the fulfillment of the law and the phophets. Is the great warning of John? This is the spirit of antichrist.
All doctrines that work to bring back the law upon those who are justified in Christ, are of the doctrines of deamons.
For those who teach such things, have given heed to seducing spirits.
Now again I say those who seek to warn others? should be warning themselves.

I have not seen anyone here denying that the Christ is the Son of God or the Messiah or that HE came in the flesh. That was what John was attacking, the so-called Docetists.

Nor have I seen anyone who has said that we are justified by God by the Law apart from faith or God.

Please, do not stray from your good sense of late. Do not revert to attacking strawmen again.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Any Father that loves their child will correct that child, it cannot be any other way.
Now what a Father does not do is seperate the child from His Love nor does He kick the child out of the family.

No, but what happens when the child leaves of his own volition and does not return? When if the prodigal son never returned? The main point of the story was his repentance and the Father's acceptance of it. But if he never returned, is there repentance?

Because only when one is confident in their eternal standing as a child of God,

See above. Being a "child of God" doesn't guarantee you eternal standing, no more than being a Jew in 1000 BC guaranteed you eternal standing as part of the People of God. God can trim the branches of the tree of life as He chooses, to include Christians, since God shows no favoritism.

Much of the correction I have seen on this thread is not biblical at all, but just the anger, guilt and bondage that some feel being directed at others.

Who are you refering to? Who is angry here? Am I mistaken? Is someone angry and I am not noticing this?

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

I have not seen anyone here denying that the Christ is the Son of God or the Messiah or that HE came in the flesh. That was what John was attacking, the so-called Docetists.

Nor have I seen anyone who has said that we are justified by God by the Law apart from faith or God.

Please, do not stray from your good sense of late. Do not revert to attacking strawmen again.

Regards

Again the scriptures declare that the law is not of faith. So to say that one is justified by faith and then must be made perfect by the law "any part of the law" is that which Pauls confronts in the strongest terms in the epistle to the Gal.
Have ye soon so turn from the GRACE OF GOD to another gospel , which is not another.
Having begun in the spirit are now made perfect by the flesh.
You who are justified by law have fallen from grace.

Now the fact that one must continue in Christ as one receives Him, is evident and clear.
So I do not find your understanding acceptable nor are they proven in any manner in scripture.

According to your doctrine we are saved by grace and then are under law. This is that which receives the strongest and most dire warnings of scripture.

Again the LAW IS NOT OF FAITH. so one not claim to be under law and also in faith. Thats impossible!

 

[Mitspa]

No, but what happens when the child leaves of his own volition and does not return? When if the prodigal son never returned? The main point of the story was his repentance and the Father's acceptance of it. But if he never returned, is there repentance?



See above. Being a "child of God" doesn't guarantee you eternal standing, no more than being a Jew in 1000 BC guaranteed you eternal standing as part of the People of God. God can trim the branches of the tree of life as He chooses, to include Christians, since God shows no favoritism.



Who are you refering to? Who is angry here? Am I mistaken? Is someone angry and I am not noticing this?

Regards

Well the only warnings are to those who have been accepted by Gods grace and then turn to law.
If you do not understand the differance between being a jew by birth (flesh) and being" born again" in spirit of Gods seed and Holy Spirit?
I doubt you do understand what a "child of God" is.

As far as those who have warned others? If you cannot read the many post on this thread and see those who think they are in positions to warn others? I doubt that I have anyway to help you see what is clear, if you have chosen to ignore it?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Again the scriptures declare that the law is not of faith. So to say that one is justified by faith and then must be made perfect by the law "any part of the law" is that which Pauls confronts in the strongest terms in the epistle to the Gal.
Have ye soon so turn from the GRACE OF GOD to another gospel , which is not another.
Having begun in the spirit are now made perfect by the flesh.
You who are justified by law have fallen from grace.

Now the fact that one must continue in Christ as one receives Him, is evident and clear.
So I do not find your understanding acceptable nor are they proven in any manner in scripture.

According to your doctrine we are saved by grace and then are under law. This is that which receives the strongest and most dire warnings of scripture.

Again the LAW IS NOT OF FAITH. so one not claim to be under law and also in faith. Thats impossible!

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

 

[Mitspa]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Yes my friend it is always wise to read all that is said on the issue and see the clear context. Paul goes no to say that no man can keep the law in the fleah. That the flesh is wretched and the law only strengthens sin in the flesh. He goes on to explain in great detail that we must have the Spirit and reckon ourselves dead to the law and alive to God in spirit. FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP GOD MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT. Paul goes on to explain that the law was spiritual, that letter kills and condemns. That we must walk in the Spirit and in Gods love to fulfill that which was represented in the letter.

But it is not a mixture of law and grace, the flesh and spirit.
It is grace alone that empowers the spirit to fulfill that which the letter required.

This is why Paul used the term "May the grace of God be with your spirit"
So the law cannot make a charge of sin, nor can it justify in any way those who are justified By Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

Again the scriptures declare that the law is not of faith.

Again, the meaning of that is that legalistic following of the law without conversion of the heart is not faith. How can legalism be declared as an act of faith in God? Of course it is not.

One can follow the Law with a faithful heart with God's help. Have you not read the Old Testament??? The prophets were faithful followers of the Law, were they not? I again am saying you misunderstand what is written.

God did NOT write a law with His finger so that no one could obey it - attaching the penalty of death to disobedience of it - and THEN telling Moses to write "it is not difficult to obey". Are you seeing how the theology you present falls apart at just a little bit of thought? It is bogus and I condemn such false theology. God is a God of truth, not one of lies.

So to say that one is justified by faith and then must be made perfect by the law "any part of the law" is that which Pauls confronts in the strongest terms in the epistle to the Gal.
Have ye soon so turn from the GRACE OF GOD to another gospel , which is not another.
Having begun in the spirit are now made perfect by the flesh.

Again, it doesn't appear as if you are reading my posts - or refuse to comprehend them. The legalist would have to obey every part of the Law to obligate God to pay them a reward.
The faithful follower of God is not DEMANDED to act in that manner! HE depends upon the righteousness of God. God HIMSELF has given His People of means of rectifying the situation - even if temporarily during the time of the Old Covenant. Clearly, you have heard of the OT cultic sacrifices offered as expiation for sin? Yom Kippur? Good grief. God has given faithful followers a means of turning BACK to God, even during the time of the OT.

Now the fact that one must continue in Christ as one receives Him, is evident and clear.
So I do not find your understanding acceptable nor are they proven in any manner in scripture.

Not sure what you mean by "continue in Christ as one receives Him", that is NOT clear and evident, nor do I recall any Scripture passage that states that. It IS clear and evident that you are mistaken in your interpretation, since otherwise, you make God out to be deceitful, or at best, confused that He would call it holy and then sin - meaning it as YOU do. Is this what you are saying?

What are you looking for me to quote? That God is a trickster, who states that the Law is holy - AND is sin??? Or that God made a Law that no one could obey AND demand obedience to it? Or that God would make such a Law and THEN SAY it was not difficult to follow??? :gah

I think you are ignoring the key issue of your own theology. It doesn't mesh with the overall idea that God is holy and does not change. That God is a God of truth, not a God who tricks people and lies.

According to your doctrine we are saved by grace and then are under law.

I don't think you understand what I mean by Grace, nor do I think you are carefully reading what I write, despite writing it over and over again. Because I have been giving you nothing but the Gospel of Grace. Even my signature line shouts it, if you only had ears to listen... But you are closing the door, prefering to close a blind eye to the obvious fallacy of your position. God is a God of Truth, not as you make Him out to be. God has ALWAYS presented a path of grace for His people to follow. Paul sees this, even tracing back to Abraham. Do you seriously think he was the only one who followed God by faith? Or that God would enact a Law that would shut down Abraham's sort of faith???

As Paul would say HEAVENS FORBID...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Well the only warnings are to those who have been accepted by Gods grace and then turn to law.

You mistyped. You mean "turn to sin", not "turn to law". How can turning to something holy be something evil that God finds reprehensible??? The Law was given to man so that man could know God's Will. It is ETERNAL! Turning to that source is a source of evil??? Either you are gravely mistaken, or you did a typo there.

Paul is talking about turning to legalism in the verse you seem to love. I have told you this over and over... He is attacking Judaizers, who expect Gentiles to become Jews. This is not about faithful following of the Law, but legalism.

Do you understand the difference between a person who follows the law legalistically, by the letter, VS a person who follows that same Law out of love of God, a love full of trust??? If not, go read the Gospels, they are full of examples of contrast between the faithful follower of the Law and the legalists.

If you do not understand the differance between being a jew by birth (flesh) and being" born again" in spirit of Gods seed and Holy Spirit?
I doubt you do understand what a "child of God" is.

No need in getting personal just because you are frustrated. The end of Romans 2 explains it, and I have already referred to it. Maybe you should read my posts. Even the Old Testament refers to being spiritually circumcised as a sign of who is a real Jew - "God praiser".

As far as those who have warned others? If you cannot read the many post on this thread and see those who think they are in positions to warn others? I doubt that I have anyway to help you see what is clear, if you have chosen to ignore it?

Mitspa, with all due respect, I see you are in no position to warn me of anything. You have not impressed me with your ability in interpreting Scriptures OR in debating in a humble and loving fashion. Your theology is falling apart under scrutiny, and rather than defend it, you tell me to beware and to be warned? You tell me you are literally God's prophet, that He sent you??? Given how your theology has God as a liar, I highly doubt He sent you. It is more likely you sent yourself.

If you think otherwise, defend your theology, rather than attacking my person. Prove that YOUR interpretations do not make God out to be a liar viz a viz the Law. Show me where Jesus said He would abrogate the Law. Tell me where Paul says we no longer have to worry about "thou shall not kill" anymore, since Jesus died so that we can continue to live in evil, although pretend that we are actually holy...

The more I scrutinize your theology, the more I see it is from Satan, the great deceiver who would love to see Christians preaching that God is a liar.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes my friend it is always wise to read all that is said on the issue and see the clear context. Paul goes no to say that no man can keep the law in the fleah.

IIt is wise to follow your own advice. Just simply read Romans 2. This passage clearly states that such men who obey the Law will inherit eternal life. It doesn't say anything about "no man can keep the law in the flesh", which is yet again, another logical fallacy, since NO ONE HERE has said any sort of thing. You are again arguing with phantoms of your imagination. The passage itself states that GOD WRITES A LAW ON THEIR HEARTS. And they follow it - to eternal reward.

Regards