Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Sparkey]

I've just posted one of my more meandering thoughts in the Earring thread that farouk sponsors here. Rather than ye ol' copy-pasta thing, and since it could be squeezed in here somewhere, here's a link for those interested: The Is ear piercing too liberal? thread.

Ahhh, do allow me to remind myself that I was so far off topic that it is true that I presumed upon the grace and good will of my brother while posting. Don't follow my lead in the off-topic style of the post, right? Also, those inclined to reply with "TL;DR" should probably skip it.

 

[vocalyocal]

This is what I understand of your theology.

1. If a truly born again believer breaks the law and have some sin in their life that they haven't overcome they lose their salvation.
2. If a person (re. Abraham) has a close relationship with God and a concious but they do not have a llist of rules they won't know God's will as to sin.
3. A born again person that has a list of rules can willfully break the rules because God gave them the go-ahead and not lose their salvation. (re. your wife and YOU)

I can just hear it now, " but God the woman said she got the go-ahead from you and I believed her, not my fault, it's hers. The garden all over again.

I have tried my darnest to be gracious to you even by not mentioning this post perviously but I have nothing more to say to you.
Your theology reminds me of the people who have the very same list of rules that they are intent on shoving on the rest of the world. But their god gives them a special go-ahead to murder thousands of innocent people by airplane and it's not really murder. They hate grace, they have the OT, they are even OK with the 4 Gospels (Jesus the Prophet) but they hate Paul, because they read Paul they can even see the grace he preached and they deny it.

just a quick question, Is it your theology that a born again Christian can live as a fornicator, homosexual, slanderer, adulterer etc.....etc...and still inherit salvation?

 

[Deborah13]

just a quick question, Is it your theology that a born again Christian can live as a fornicator, homosexual, slanderer, adulterer etc.....etc...and still inherit salvation?

My theology says that if a person is truly born again that the Holy Spirit indwells them and they are in the process of santification where by the Holy Spirit is working in them as they submit and trust the Lord they will repent. It is not my place to judge where someone is in their walk with the Lord.
I believe that if one is born again they will not lose their salvation, that Jesus will see that that does not happen, even if He has to shorten their physical life to save their spirit/soul.

I will not enter this conversation with you. It always seems that the people who scream the loudest about other people's salvation are the ones who find convenient ways not to have to obey the laws themselves.
Oh we got the go-ahead directly from the Lord. Sorry God is not a respector of persons. I have seen this to many times in my fairly long life and it stinks like a trash can full of pampers.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

just a quick question, Is it your theology that a born again Christian can live as a fornicator, homosexual, slanderer, adulterer etc.....etc...and still inherit salvation?

Not only is that my theology, it is the theology of the Bible. Now, that said, there is further examination to do here in order to understand the situation.

Is this a continuing lifestyle after salvation, a lifestyle that shows no benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit, a compilation of sin upon sin upon sin that is the same behavior exhibited before an aisle was walked and a prayer said? If so, there was no change of heart. No change of heart means no indwelling Spirit. No indwelling Spirit means no salvation. This is an emotional reaction to the gospel without any real confession, not one that was accepted by God as true, valid and of salvic nature. These are just words with no real understanding or meaning behind them.

On the other hand, is this sin that someone who had heretofore shown evidence of a changed life, of the influence of the indwelling Spirit in his/her life, and then for some inexplicable reason allowed sin to rule once again? If so, this is a saved person, one who has temporarily chosen to live in the flesh, to indulge in the desires of the mind and emotions rather than allow the Spirit to guide, even to rule. Such a person does not "lose" their salvation. They do severely hinder their fellowship with God, and essentially enter a spiritual desert similar to the one trod by Israel for forty years.

This is the problem with the view those such as yourself have. You believe that walking an aisle and saying a prayer is salvation, and while it is a step in the right direction, there is no salvation unless God has accepted the confession as valid, true, real. There are many churches that make salvation far too easy, counting numbers rather than discipling souls. That is not to say there is more to it than belief. But to tell a person that a simple prayer, regardless of its validity, its heartfeltness, its truth, is the equivalent of salvation? That is cruel, because salvation is far is more than just words and actions. It is a heartfelt, true confession of being a hopeless sinner in need of a Savior, so heartfelt that God cannot help but see its genuineness, and dispatch the Holy Spirit to indwell that person. The outer view of this event is too easily counterfeited in emotion and people-pleasing.

Only God knows for certain, and the person who makes such a genuine confession. Those who lack genuineness? They are never certain, because they don't understand the reality of the event they have pretended to act out.

 

[defender2]

No-one is guaranteed of salvation.

 

[vocalyocal]

My theology says that if a person is truly born again that the Holy Spirit indwells them and they are in the process of santification where by the Holy Spirit is working in them as they submit and trust the Lord they will repent. It is not my place to judge where someone is in their walk with the Lord.
I believe that if one is born again they will not lose their salvation, that Jesus will see that that does not happen, even if He has to shorten their physical life to save their spirit/soul.

I will not enter this conversation with you. It always seems that the people who scream the loudest about other people's salvation are the ones who find convenient ways not to have to obey the laws themselves.
Oh we got the go-ahead directly from the Lord. Sorry God is not a respector of persons. I have seen this to many times in my fairly long life and it stinks like a trash can full of pampers.

thankyou for answering, so I take it your not a big fan of church discipline either as all these folks who appear to need discipline would simply be in the process of being santified, and God will bring them about in His own time.................thats an interesting theology

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

No-one is guaranteed of salvation.

John 6 NASB
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

 

[Deborah13]

thankyou for answering, so I take it your not a big fan of church discipline either as all these folks who appear to need discipline would simply be in the process of being santified, and God will bring them about in His own time.................thats an interesting theology

GOD speaking to Job says...
Job 40:14

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 “Then I will also confess to you,
That your own right hand can save you.

 

[farouk]

I've just posted one of my more meandering thoughts in the Earring thread that farouk sponsors here. Rather than ye ol' copy-pasta thing, and since it could be squeezed in here somewhere, here's a link for those interested: The Is ear piercing too liberal? thread.

Ahhh, do allow me to remind myself that I was so far off topic that it is true that I presumed upon the grace and good will of my brother while posting. Don't follow my lead in the off-topic style of the post, right? Also, those inclined to reply with "TL;DR" should probably skip it.

Well, I'm flattered...

 

[vocalyocal]

John 6 NASB
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

satan and his demonic followers believe Jesus is the Son of God

 

[vocalyocal]

GOD speaking to Job says...
Job 40:14

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 “Then I will also confess to you,
That your own right hand can save you.

no Jobs hand can't save himself, but there are always clauses with contracts and covenants, to say there is nothing one needs to do to inherit eternal life would be a false gospel

 

[John Zain]

Oh we got the go-ahead directly from the Lord.

Don't recall you ever claiming that God spoke to you, told you something, etc.

Do you realize that people who have the anointing baptism with the Holy Spirit,
and have some of the 9 spiritual power gifts, and are part of the 5-fold ministry
hear more from the Lord (and more clearly) that thou does?

News Flash!
Our God is not a black-and-white God, who does things to your liking,
and He is not in a box in your closet ... He does what He wants to do.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

satan and his demonic followers believe Jesus is the Son of God

And? You honestly believe this is the same kind of faith as is spoke of in this verse? In John 3:16? This belief as stated in John 6:47 is convicting faith, faith that provides salvation. Surely you know the difference between what man can believe and what the demons think? Or perhaps not. More's the pity.

 

[defender2]

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[vocalyocal]

And? You honestly believe this is the same kind of faith as is spoke of in this verse? In John 3:16? This belief as stated in John 6:47 is convicting faith, faith that provides salvation. Surely you know the difference between what man can believe and what the demons think? Or perhaps not. More's the pity.

I believe not only that demons believe Jesus is the Son of God, I believe that they obey His commands, I don't believe that they have faith in believing He is the Son of God, I believe they KNOW HE IS THE SON OF GOD! I believe the bible demonstrates this fact all through the pages

I think they have already rejected the plan of Jesus along time ago, so their fate has already been sealed

so in the terms of salvation its mute whether they believe or not

but the one fact of salvation that can't be overlooked is Jesus rebukes to the seven churches, we see whole churches of believers, who have strayed from sound doctrine, and unless they repent and return to a better faith in mind and in action they will not enter the kingdom of God

while people can say no actions of believers will be judged, it contradicts Jesus's own warnings

 

[vocalyocal]

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

YES! you can't get around this very basic fact, there is required some DOING! of the will of God!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I think they have already rejected the plan of Jesus along time ago, so their fate has already been sealed

You do realize spirit beings have no soul and are not subject either to redemption or condemnation, right?

but the one fact of salvation that can't be overlooked is Jesus rebukes to the seven churches, we see whole churches of believers, who have strayed from sound doctrine, and unless they repent and return to a better faith in mind and in action they will not enter the kingdom of God

Not true. Salvation cannot be "lost," as you've been pointedly and repeatedly reminded many times on this forum. The rebukes were a call to repentance, not to restore salvation (no where in those passages can it be said they were threatened with "becoming lost") but to be restored to fellowship, which is all that is "lost" ("broken" being a much more accurate term) when sin is persistent in a believer's life.

while people can say no actions of believers will be judged, it contradicts Jesus's own warnings

No one has said that, and it isn't true. 1Corinthians 3:10-15 describes the Bema Seat, the Judgment Seat of Christ, where the works of believers will be judged and rewards given based on those works on behalf of the Kingdom. Look at the end of that passage.

1 Corinthians 3 NASB
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
​

Ever been around someone rescued from a fire? Or a firefighter who just came out of a burning building? The smell of smoke on them is the equivalent of the scent of escape from judgment on the unproductive believer. Only by the blood of Christ does he/she gain admission to heaven.

I may have said this to your before, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself. I've felt the need to say it so often lately, I can't remember to whom I've addressed it. Heaven is not our reward. Heaven is our home, our native land, it is where we are from, as believers. That can't be changed. Our reward as believers is based on the work we do for the advancement of the Kingdom.

Matthew 6
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
​

Sin cannot separate us from our homeland. It can and does interrupt the communication we have with our home. And it can cost us our treasure in heaven, which is something we cannot begin to understand or fathom, but it is the only thing we can "lose" in our relationship with Jesus.

 

[Ryan]

My own thoughts. Once you become saved, does one automatically become part of the ekklesia, called out ones, church? If you are then saved, and part of the larger commonwealth of saved ones, how could one who was considered part of the church be vomited out as per Revelations 3:16? One could only be a member of the church if they were saved right? So why the warning for those who are saved? Unless ekklesia means something else.

I take King David's words literally when he says after his sin of murder.

Psalms 51
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

To me this is pretty clear David was not in right standing with God and he knew this and cried out to him with a broken and repentant heart.

 

[Deborah13]

Revelation 3:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

These is the closing remarks to the churches. I personally believe that the problem presented in each church would have kept people from opening the door and receiving Jesus as Saviour and Lord and thereby not providing them with the way to overcome.

 

[Mitspa]

My own thoughts. Once you become saved, does one automatically become part of the ekklesia, called out ones, church? If you are then saved, and part of the larger commonwealth of saved ones, how could one who was considered part of the church be vomited out as per Revelations 3:16? One could only be a member of the church if they were saved right? So why the warning for those who are saved? Unless ekklesia means something else.

I take King David's words literally when he says after his sin of murder.

Psalms 51
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

To me this is pretty clear David was not in right standing with God and he knew this and cried out to him with a broken and repentant heart.

David was before the Cross of Christ, in the OLD Covenant.
We have a New Covenant, based upon the Blood of Christ. David did not have what we have! Jesus said that the least in the Kingdom is greater than any that had come before.

The only biblical way to be "cut off" or to fall from grace? Is to turn back into the law of moses "the ten commandments etc.."
Half under law and half under grace is the "lukewarm" church.
This is proven throughout scripture.

The hardest thing for some to believe is that the strength of sin, is the law. That the law produces sinful desires. Only grace gives a believer power over sin. Most of the warnings of scripture are to those who love to warn others. Just as the pharisee who enjoyed to condemn others with warnings about Gods Anger! They who have shown no mercy will receive no mercy. Mercy rejoices over judgment.