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(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

John Zain

John Zain

Member
(Some) OSASers believe either (1) or (2):
(1) God chose (elected) certain humans to be given His free gift of grace-faith
(2) humans chose who would believe and receive God’s free gift of grace-faith

Either way … these humans are created into born-again Christians.
They are transformed into new creations (2 Cor 5:17).

(Some) OSASers believe these new creations cannot lose their salvation.
No matter what they do! … I.E. they have NO choice in the matter.
Ergo, they actually are human robots! … I.E. they have NO free will.

But, God has always given humans the free will to choose to follow & obey Him or not to ...
“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love
the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments,
that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you … But if your heart turns away
so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce
to you today that you shall surely perish … I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you
and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice,
and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days …” (Deut 30:15-20)

Here are 7 websites that explain why the the doctrine of OSAS is false …

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/heresy/once-saved-always-saved/sermon.php
One heresy leads to another heresy – requiring two lies! The lie of decisional regeneration
needs the lie of guaranteed eternal life to comfort the "saved" who continue living in sin.

http://www.fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.html
John J. Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine”
[Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article
of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian.
Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that
“once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught
by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin.
This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.
… Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people
that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards)
is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century.

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/oncesave.htm
According to the above Bible verses, obedience most certainly does affect our salvation
and you can lose it. I guess my point in all of this is this, if you have lost your first love
and have left the church and God and are living for the world, then maybe you need to
stop and ask yourself this most important question. Am I converted? Am I born again?
Am I on the pathway to heaven? Or am I just fooling myself ...

http://www.abideinchrist.info/oncesaved.html
'Once saved always saved' is a subtle twist by false teachers. It is a doctrine of deception.
According to them ‘saved’ is a status that inherits heaven. Once we got it we will not lose it
no matter what we do. That is, even if a saved man rapes and kills a girl, surely he will go
to heaven while the unsaved victim goes to hell. It is ridiculous before the holy God.

http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/eternal_security.php
If Jesus' blood saves by itself with no conditions to be met, then why is faith necessary?
The Bible expressly shows that there are conditions children of God must meet
to be cleansed by Jesus' blood.

http://www.jesusfreak.com/oncesaved.asp
Did Jesus ever teach that once you are saved, that you cannot lose your salvation?
We are assured eternal security, yes, but only to those who remain in the faith until the end.
To those who Obey Him and overcome!

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00852.html
Conclusion: These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to
the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent
belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the
teachings of the Bible. It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved”
did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have found that a lot of people who say they believe in OSAS don't actually mean that all you have to do is believe and then you have your ticket to heaven and there is nothing you can do to lose it. When you explain to them that their lives must reflect that they have faith in Christ and repent then a lot of the OSAS will agree with you. My father has always believed OSAS until recently he agreed that it is a dangerous doctrine. A lot of pastors may not have the intention of people thinking they can get saved and then nothing they do after that matters but the message that is preached is perceived that way because it lacks the message that being a Christian is not just accepting Jesus as your Savior, but also the Lord of your life. Not many people want to hear a message that being a Christian could interfere with their way of life.
 
I am not a Calvinist but.......
Not all OSAS doctrine is the same. One cannot lump together all the different interpretations.

Calvin's doctrine Never said that a person who was saved would/could continue in willful habitual sin. Calvin's doctrine includes the P in TULIP, Perseverance of the saints. Which says that if one is truly saved they will Not continue in an unbeliever life style. They will not continue in this life style because the Holy Spirit continues to change their hearts (repentance) to the will of God.
I happen to agree with the P.

Some people have corrupted the doctrine of grace and faith, some have not.
Some when they preach grace it causes people to say what Paul's followers said, "Should we go on sinning that grace should abound?" Paul had to clarify what he was saying.
A good grace preacher will clarify just a Paul did.

I don't blame the church for all the problems and misunderstandings. Some people will only hear what they want to hear. Some will not hear the clarifications and some will dismiss grace almost all together and rely on their own will to change themselves. When the truth is on that narrow path.
Like Andrew Wommack says, if one goes too far one way or the other they end up in a ditch.
I say a ditch is a ditch, is a ditch. It doesn't matter which ditch one is in when the flood waters come they will not be sitting on the high path and are in danger of being swept away in the wrong direction. We can bring many sorrows on ourselves, not understanding the doctrine of grace and faith. And in not understanding what James was saying when he said "faith without works is dead."
 
As someone who does associate himself with calvinism (Orthodox Presbyterian) I will say that there is a big misconception when it comes to "the elect." Yes, there are those who God pre-ordained He would save. We do not know who they are, and it is possible to accept that gift should an individual, though they may be elect, choose to not follow Jesus Christ. It all has to do with free will.

The best way to know you are saved is by being quickened by the Holy Spirit, which leads to an understanding of what it means to be saved, and how to be saved.

Works do have a role in salvation, but they are not a pre-requisite. Good works are a sign that an individual has been saved, and is doing these works to bring praise and thanksgiving to God for this wonderful gift.
 
according to Scripture, First John 1 through 5 says plainly that he wrote it so that believers could KNOW THEY ARE IN THE LIGHT (i.e. SAVED).
a lot of churches and/or believers won't even read First John for that reason. (they're afreaid to find out)
 
Knotical said:
Works do have a role in salvation, but they are not a pre-requisite.
Click to expand...
Then what do you make of this? ...

Matthew 25:
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry
or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as
you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous (who do these things) into eternal life.”
 
John Zain said:
Then what do you make of this? ...

Matthew 25:
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry
or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as
you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous (who do these things) into eternal life.”
Click to expand...
Good works are a sign of someone who has been saved. Notice, it is A sign, not THE sign. Basically, those who are saved will have it in their nature to do good works, which is a reflection of God's glory.

This is also not to say that anyone who does good work is saved, as there are plenty of unbelievers who do good things in this world. Unfortunately, their motivation is futile, as it will not lead them anywhere.
 
John Zain OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

Your title is actually backwards John.

People who believe we must be obedient in order to not lose salvation are robots.

OSAS people believe that we are only saved by His Grace and our faith alone, and not by works.

Robot: a person who acts and responds in a mechanical, routine manner, usually subject to another's will.

- DRS81

 
Knotical said:
Good works are a sign of someone who has been saved. Notice, it is A sign, not THE sign. Basically, those who are saved will have it in their nature to do good works, which is a reflection of God's glory.

This is also not to say that anyone who does good work is saved, as there are plenty of unbelievers who do good things in this world. Unfortunately, their motivation is futile, as it will not lead them anywhere.
Click to expand...

Good post.
 
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. This verse says that the moment God chooses us their salvation is guaranteed.
The Holy Spirit dwells in all who are saved.For a believer to become unsaved he would have to be "un-dwelt" and detached from the Bod of Christ Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
 
I think people who believe they can LOSE their salvation are more likely to struggle, they have less peace. They may keep looking to themselves for strength and will power to live a Christian life.

Those who believe that once they become a child of God He will keep them are more inclined to just trust God that the Holy Spirit working in them will bring about works of righteousness and help them to overcome whatever needs to be overcome in their lives.

He doesn't just justify us; He also sanctifies us.

Jesus taught righteousness and walked in righteousness. I believe that when John 16 says the Holy Spirit will convict us of righteousness that's what the Holy Spirit does. He speaks righteousness into our hearts.
 
Deborah13 said:
I think people who believe they can LOSE their salvation are more likely to struggle, they have less peace. They may keep looking to themselves for strength and will power to live a Christian life.

Those who believe that once they become a child of God He will keep them are more inclined to just trust God that the Holy Spirit working in them will bring about works of righteousness and help them to overcome whatever needs to be overcome in their lives.

He doesn't just justify us; He also sanctifies us.

Jesus taught righteousness and walked in righteousness. I believe that when John 16 says the Holy Spirit will convict us of righteousness that's what the Holy Spirit does. He speaks righteousness into our hearts.
Click to expand...
I agree.What you said makes alot of sense :)
 
John Zain said:
(Some) OSASers believe either (1) or (2):
(1) God chose (elected) certain humans to be given His free gift of grace-faith
(2) humans chose who would believe and receive God’s free gift of grace-faith

Either way … these humans are created into born-again Christians.
They are transformed into new creations (2 Cor 5:17).

(Some) OSASers believe these new creations cannot lose their salvation.
No matter what they do! … I.E. they have NO choice in the matter.
Ergo, they actually are human robots! … I.E. they have NO free will.

But, God has always given humans the free will to choose to follow & obey Him or not to ...
“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love
the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments,
that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you … But if your heart turns away
so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce
to you today that you shall surely perish … I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you
and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice,
and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days …” (Deut 30:15-20)

Here are 7 websites that explain why the the doctrine of OSAS is false …

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/heresy/once-saved-always-saved/sermon.php
One heresy leads to another heresy – requiring two lies! The lie of decisional regeneration
needs the lie of guaranteed eternal life to comfort the "saved" who continue living in sin.

http://www.fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.html
John J. Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine”
[Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article
of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian.
Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that
“once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught
by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin.
This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.
… Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people
that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards)
is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century.

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/oncesave.htm
According to the above Bible verses, obedience most certainly does affect our salvation
and you can lose it. I guess my point in all of this is this, if you have lost your first love
and have left the church and God and are living for the world, then maybe you need to
stop and ask yourself this most important question. Am I converted? Am I born again?
Am I on the pathway to heaven? Or am I just fooling myself ...

http://www.abideinchrist.info/oncesaved.html
'Once saved always saved' is a subtle twist by false teachers. It is a doctrine of deception.
According to them ‘saved’ is a status that inherits heaven. Once we got it we will not lose it
no matter what we do. That is, even if a saved man rapes and kills a girl, surely he will go
to heaven while the unsaved victim goes to hell. It is ridiculous before the holy God.

http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/eternal_security.php
If Jesus' blood saves by itself with no conditions to be met, then why is faith necessary?
The Bible expressly shows that there are conditions children of God must meet
to be cleansed by Jesus' blood.

http://www.jesusfreak.com/oncesaved.asp
Did Jesus ever teach that once you are saved, that you cannot lose your salvation?
We are assured eternal security, yes, but only to those who remain in the faith until the end.
To those who Obey Him and overcome!

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00852.html
Conclusion: These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to
the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent
belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the
teachings of the Bible. It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved”
did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period.
Click to expand...
I'm OSAS.
Who are you to tell me what I believe?
 
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3459-1a86dcde63566be19c19234aaa5bdf5d.jpg

I can’t seem to figure out whether to laugh or cry!

The reason people speak out against OSAS is to warn those who have been taught to believe it.
 
John Zain said:
3459-1a86dcde63566be19c19234aaa5bdf5d.jpg

I can’t seem to figure out whether to laugh or cry!

The reason people speak out against OSAS is to warn those who have been taught to believe it.
Click to expand...
Or, because they don't understand it, which then reveals another problem....
 
How much habitual sin over how long of a period of time does it take to lose ones salvation? How does one know if they have lost it?
 
jeff77 said:
How much habitual sin over how long of a period of time does it take to lose ones salvation? How does one know if they have lost it?
Click to expand...

You can't lose your salvation once you are born again, no matter if you fall into sin or not.
 
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