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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Some Won't Get Saved
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Christ_empowered
Member
-shrug- this is a serious topic, but...truth? right now, I'm thinking more about my own salvation, per this verse that popped up in my head and then I found on www.biblegateway.com:
OK. so, following that, I'm reminded of Barna studies. Barna is an organization, founded by a Christian social scientist (I want to say sociologist, could be wrong) to do research on religion in the US, especially US Christianity. and...
if I recall correctly, a recent, in depth research project found that maybe 1 in 3 of church going, self-professed Christians in the US have the very basic outlook to be considered truly Born Again. thing is...
these questions that the researchers used to separate those who meet the criteria of a basic Christian worldview from the others aren't -supposed- to be controversial -in churches-. basics, like Jesus was and is sinless, satan is real and out there, Jesus is the -only way- to salvation- , etc. and so...
when I read commentary from church leaders on the latest sad numbers from the latest Barna data, its always "we need to disciple our members" and such, but then I think back about it and...
1 Corinthians 3:6-8
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
((www.biblegateway.com, again. and...in KJV, for some unknown reason. enjoy!))
this leads me to think that there have been outreaches, churches, ministries, etc. since Jesus' time...
but Jesus Himself says: "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
which isn't to say the Calvinism is the one, true doctrine. lol. nah, I"m not convinced of that, honestly. I do think it might be worth considering, though, that if "many are called, but few are chosen..."
wouldn't that indicate that at least some are not even called?
as a side note...I think the Roman Catholic Church has some seriously interesting teaching on this. I only vaguely remember it...something like if one has some sort of psychological impediment to ever even thinking about accepting Jesus Christ as Savior, then The Lord will have mercy on that individual in the world to come. and...
-sigh- I look over the EXvangelicals, many of whom ditched what they perceived as a toxic culture along with any faith in Jesus at all, and I wonder: what will God with them, come judgment day? and people who were abused or defrauded by "Christian" church leaders and "Christian" organizations? what of them?
that's not even covering the many, many people raised in intensely anti-Christian culture and subcultures. ugh. what a world. :-(
2 Corinthians 13:5
English Standard Version
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!OK. so, following that, I'm reminded of Barna studies. Barna is an organization, founded by a Christian social scientist (I want to say sociologist, could be wrong) to do research on religion in the US, especially US Christianity. and...
if I recall correctly, a recent, in depth research project found that maybe 1 in 3 of church going, self-professed Christians in the US have the very basic outlook to be considered truly Born Again. thing is...
these questions that the researchers used to separate those who meet the criteria of a basic Christian worldview from the others aren't -supposed- to be controversial -in churches-. basics, like Jesus was and is sinless, satan is real and out there, Jesus is the -only way- to salvation- , etc. and so...
when I read commentary from church leaders on the latest sad numbers from the latest Barna data, its always "we need to disciple our members" and such, but then I think back about it and...
1 Corinthians 3:6-8
King James Version
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
((www.biblegateway.com, again. and...in KJV, for some unknown reason. enjoy!))
this leads me to think that there have been outreaches, churches, ministries, etc. since Jesus' time...
but Jesus Himself says: "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
which isn't to say the Calvinism is the one, true doctrine. lol. nah, I"m not convinced of that, honestly. I do think it might be worth considering, though, that if "many are called, but few are chosen..."
wouldn't that indicate that at least some are not even called?
as a side note...I think the Roman Catholic Church has some seriously interesting teaching on this. I only vaguely remember it...something like if one has some sort of psychological impediment to ever even thinking about accepting Jesus Christ as Savior, then The Lord will have mercy on that individual in the world to come. and...
-sigh- I look over the EXvangelicals, many of whom ditched what they perceived as a toxic culture along with any faith in Jesus at all, and I wonder: what will God with them, come judgment day? and people who were abused or defrauded by "Christian" church leaders and "Christian" organizations? what of them?
that's not even covering the many, many people raised in intensely anti-Christian culture and subcultures. ugh. what a world. :-(
Matthew 13: 1–9, 18–23)
In three words, "lovers of self"
I think you nailed it. In order to accept the free gift of salvation we have to be willing and able to let go of our desire to be our own gods and place our trust in the one and only God. That can be a pretty big pill to swallow for many if not most of us.
Jesus used the example of Noah and applied it to his day and to our day.
A warning message is proclaimed, but it seems unbelievable, despite the preparations being made, untill it is two late.
With Noah, it was God who miraculously closed the arms door.
The watching crowd would have seen this, yet were unmoved.
God gave them seven days of grace to change their minds before the flood happened.
How many did so?
Today ever Christian is a warning that there is a day of judgement, that we have to change and that one day it will be too late.
Ultimately it is God who predestins those who will be saved, it is his grace, love, mercy and justice that prevails, not our opinions and feelings.
God knows before hand who will believe Him; who will indeed obey His instructions to be saved.
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16
Take firm hold of instruction, do not let go;
Keep her, for she is your life. Proverbs 4:13
JLB
Maybe for the same reason God enlisted Moses to free his people from the clutches of Pharaoh, only to harden Pharaoh's heart beforehand so Pharaoh would refuse. And God could then demonstrate his power by bringing on the 10 plagues.
It is God's sovereign decretive will.
It is God's sovereign decretive will.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Are you disagreeing with me?
First it sounds like God gave the men of Noah's time the opportunity to repent.
Then you say that ultimately it is God who predestines those who will be saved.
Which is it??
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I do know some persons who won't even read the bible for fear of what it might state.
(at least, I THINK that's the reason).
These are not the most "sweet" persons I know....cursing, bad parenting techniques, low moral values....and other such traits.
So, yes, I do believe this is one of the reasons.
But do these persons REALLY believe in an afterlife?
I doubt it.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The parable of the sower.
Jesus is explaining why some of these seeds will not produce faith....
I'm trying to understand the REASONS why...
IOW,,, Why are some hearts like stone?
Why is satan allowed to take away God's word?
etc.
God never predestined who would be saved or who would not be saved as God is no respecter of person and this is not found in scripture, but only in the doctrines of theories of man. What God predestined before the foundation of the world was His plan of salvation through Christ Jesus that all can be reconciled back to God through repentance as God gave us His free gift of grace which is Christ Jesus and our faith in Him. Ephesians 2:8-9
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Do you think that vs. 29 sounds like God chooses?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.
"God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to him."
Where is that in scripture?
And where is there evidence the Pharaoh and Egyptian citizens were lapsed Jews so as to have God give them a chance to turn back to him?
For your supposition to be correct and in line with God's word, there would be no reference in scripture as to God having predestined, foreordained, anything at all as relates to God and man.
Proverbs 16:9
A person may plan his path,
but Adonai directs his steps.
Isaiah 45:7 Orthodox Hebrew Bible
I form ohr, and create choshech; I make shalom, and create rah; I Hashem worketh all these things.
KJV Rah: Strong's
רַע raʻ, rah; from H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease(-ure), distress, evil((-favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, × great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Including feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.)
Romans 8
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8 - Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful...
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Book of Life
Revelation 13:8 Mounce Koine (Common) Greek Version
Life -ζωή (zōē)
Strong: G2222GK: G2437
life, living existence, Lk. 16:25; Acts 17:25; in NT spiritual life of deliverance from the proper penalty of sin, which is expressed by θάνατος, Jn. 6:51; Rom. 5:18; 6:4; the final life of the redeemed, Mt. 25:46; life, source of spiritual life, Jn. 5:39; 11:25; Col. 3:4
Revelation 13:8 Orthodox Jewish Bible
And all the ones dwelling on ha’aretz (the earth) will worship the Chayyah (Beast, Anti-Moshiach), all the ones whose name has not been written in the Sefer HaChayyim of the SEH (Lamb, SHEMOT 12:3; YESHAYAH 53:7, Moshiach) having been slain from lifnei hivvased tevel (before the foundation of the world).
This suggests its a choice made.
As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.
Exodus chapter 1-18 the 10 plagues.
Now this is just my opinion so bare with me as scripture does not come right out and say so, but I do believe God has always given everyone a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but yet many refuse to believe in Him just like everyone today up to the time of Christ return when it will be to late.
As I read about all the plagues that God brought on Pharaoh and the Egyptians, Pharaoh continued to harden his heart throughout all the plagues. Pharaoh, seeing that God was greater than all their Egyptian gods they worshipped, could have repented and turned back to God after seeing how mighty and sovereign He was within all the plagues He placed before him.
I never said Pharaoh and the Egyptians were ever Israelites/Jews, but even before they, being of the tribes of Israel who are called Jews, there was no such thing as a Jew or a Gentile, but all God's creation who sinned and fell short of His glory.
For your supposition to be correct and in line with God's word, there would be no reference in scripture as to God having predestined, foreordained, anything at all as relates to God and man.
Proverbs 16:9
A person may plan his path,
but Adonai directs his steps.
Isaiah 45:7 Orthodox Hebrew Bible
I form ohr, and create choshech; I make shalom, and create rah; I Hashem worketh all these things.
KJV Rah: Strong's
רַע raʻ, rah; from H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease(-ure), distress, evil((-favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, × great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Including feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.)
Romans 8Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8 - Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful...www.biblegateway.com
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Book of Life
Revelation 13:8 Mounce Koine (Common) Greek Version
Life -ζωή (zōē)
Strong: G2222
GK: G2437
life, living existence, Lk. 16:25; Acts 17:25; in NT spiritual life of deliverance from the proper penalty of sin, which is expressed by θάνατος, Jn. 6:51; Rom. 5:18; 6:4; the final life of the redeemed, Mt. 25:46; life, source of spiritual life, Jn. 5:39; 11:25; Col. 3:4
Revelation 13:8 Orthodox Jewish Bible
And all the ones dwelling on ha’aretz (the earth) will worship the Chayyah (Beast, Anti-Moshiach), all the ones whose name has not been written in the Sefer HaChayyim of the SEH (Lamb, SHEMOT 12:3; YESHAYAH 53:7, Moshiach) having been slain from lifnei hivvased tevel (before the foundation of the world).
God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).
Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).
The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).
Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).
I leave you to your preferred Exegesis.
God Bless.