Son of God....Son of man

[whirlwind]

Jesus said.....

• John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before...just as we will again be with Him when our flesh body perishes. We descended from heaven!

What catches my eye in the above verse is Jesus made that statment when He was teaching on earth. How can He be there teaching while at the same time be "in heaven?" Is heaven wherever He is?

• Matthew 18:3 And said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
  
  Luke 17:20-21 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, 'Lo, here!' or, "lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

He is the King of His dominion...the King-dom. His kingdom is within us as He lives in and walks in us. We are the kingdom of heaven but does that mean we are in heaven as stated in [John 3:13]? "The Son of man in heaven?"

• John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  
  [list:293c2eh7]As a side note...it is odd to me that the condemned should have believed "in the name of" and not simply...believed in "the only begotten Son of God." I'm not sure what is being said but...it means something.

[/list:u:293c2eh7]

In those two verses in [John] we see the Son of man and the Son of God. Why? What does that mean?

 

[Kyle]

Son of God and Son of Man both mean the same thing.

 

[whirlwind]

Son of God and Son of Man both mean the same thing.

Hello Kyle,

Do they mean the same thing?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I will put the caveat out there that this is my understanding and opinion and I could be very wrong.

I think they are both distinct and somewhat different...

Son of God: He truly is the son of God. God in the flesh. This one is self explanatory.

Son of Man: The best example of humanity that there is coupled with the coming of a new beginning for all mankind due to his sacrifice so we could be saved.

That is how I interpret it.

 

[Free]

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before..

No, we were not with him before. That is not biblical and not Christian.

What catches my eye in the above verse is Jesus made that statment when He was teaching on earth. How can He be there teaching while at the same time be "in heaven?"

Some manuscripts omit that phrase. This is why it is best to use several translations and take everything in context when trying to come to understanding of a passage. It is error to form beliefs around a single verse.

 

[unclejed]

From a previous post I wrote;
The term "son of man" as referring to Jesus is both physical and metaphorical. More at metaphorical in regard to His very nature. As Rabbi Paul refers to Jesus as the second Adam. Adam was the first man, he was perfect until he fell. God then came down to earth as the second Adam or metaphorically as the "son of man". Jesus fulfilled the desire of the Father and "sinned not" and thus was acceptable as a perfect man and sacrifice for sin.

 

[whirlwind]

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before..

No, we were not with him before. That is not biblical and not Christian.

I'm Christian and my Bible tells us we were with Him before.

What catches my eye in the above verse is Jesus made that statment when He was teaching on earth. How can He be there teaching while at the same time be "in heaven?"

Some manuscripts omit that phrase. This is why it is best to use several translations and take everything in context when trying to come to understanding of a passage. It is error to form beliefs around a single verse.

Thank you Free. I know that it was ommitted by some but it is in the Syriac version and stands true in the King James. Please notice...I am not forming a belief around a single verse.

 

[whirlwind]

I will put the caveat out there that this is my understanding and opinion and I could be very wrong.

I think they are both distinct and somewhat different...

Son of God: He truly is the son of God. God in the flesh. This one is self explanatory.

Son of Man: The best example of humanity that there is coupled with the coming of a new beginning for all mankind due to his sacrifice so we could be saved.

That is how I interpret it.

I too think they are distinct and somewhat different. :yes

The Son of God is the only begotten Son of God. The Son of man is Christ but we too are sons of man as well as sons of God. We have Christ in us!

 

[RND]

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before...just as we will again be with Him when our flesh body perishes. We descended from heaven!

That's Mormonism. That's Arnold Murrayism. Certainly not from the Bible.

Man was "made" on earth. He was "created" on earth with the dust of the ground and the breath of God Himself. No where does it state that man was a living soul in heaven that came down to earth to live.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man "became" a living soul once God breathed into His nostrils.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;

 

[toddm]

I'm Christian and my Bible tells us we were with Him before.

Can you show me WHERE in the Bible it says that we pre-existed? (Please don't use Jeremiah 1:5, as that is one that Mormons like to use and it is used incorrectly when trying to support pre-existence.)

I forget who posted it, but they were right when they say that is Mormon doctrine.

 

[cyberjosh]

Son of God and Son of Man both mean the same thing.

Hello Kyle,

Do they mean the same thing?

Well they both apply to Christ, but I do think they show two distinct yet unified aspects of Christ. Luke's geneology of Christ which ends in "Adam, who was the son of God" clearly also shows Christ, the second Adam, as the son of God. But he clearly also is the Son of Man, as he frequently refers to himself as, which also draws on the prophetic imagery of the Son of Man in Daniel. So I wouldn't exactly say they are the same thing, but rather two aspects of the same person.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before...just as we will again be with Him when our flesh body perishes. We descended from heaven!

That's Mormonism. That's Arnold Murrayism. Certainly not from the Bible.

Complete side tangent here, but as it happens over the weekend I went to McDonalds to study (helps me focus for some reason ) for an upcoming test for an hour or so and heard some people at one of the tables carrying on the most interesting series of conversations about the Bible ranging from the Garden of Eden, to the Rephaim, to the Creation, etc. Toward the end I heard the man doing most of the talking mention E. W. Bullinger (which got my interest because I have Bullinger's Companion Bible and Figures of Speech in the Bible), and so as I was leaving I walked over to him and asked him how he knew about Bullinger, etc. and he got around to mentioning Arnold Murray and Shepherd's Chapel (neither of which I had heard before).

I was planning on looking up on Arnold Murray since I know nothing about him, but it is peculiar you should mention him here. The man mentioned that Murray was a careful student of E. W. Bullinger (which is how we got to speaking about him) and he was praising Mr. Murray for having a good teaching style. He said, 'I can be in a church and truely know that the pastor completely loves the Lord with all his heart, and can love his church, but if after a while I don't learn something new from the pastor when he preaches and he continually stays on sin, repentance, and justification then I'm not growing. With Arnold Murray for me you can hardly go three minutes without learning something new about the Scriptures even if you don't agree with it'.

The guy did seem to convey to me that the guy was somewhat controversial and that he didn't believe everything that he teaches, but he made Arnold Murray sound like a very interesting and educated pastor. He also told me that Mr. Murray's church was non-denominational. Were you suggesting he was Mormon? What do you know about the man? Worth listening to?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Hmmm... after reading about some of his teachings it seems like he was somewhat like a 'Gene Scott' type of preacher. Gene Scott was a terribly intelligent man but doctrinally slid into the fringe and behaved erratically sometimes. I'll just be sure to be careful then. I, for example, still listen to Melissa Scott's sermons sometimes, but am wary of certain things that her and Gene (her husband) teach that aren't entirely correct. But that's not to say you can't glean any truth from such people's teachings. If anything it will spur me to study my Bible more.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[RND]

He also told me that Mr. Murray's church was non-denominational. Were you suggesting he was Mormon?

No.

What do you know about the man?

I used to watch his program for about 6 months after I became a Christian. He's of the "serpent seed" type teaching where he believes Adam and Eve had sex with the serpent and Cain is the "serpent seed" and that God purposely had Noah take this "serpent seed" along with him on the ark.

Weird stuff.

Worth listening to?

To check him out and see what it is he teaches? You bet. I think it pays to have a wide ranging knowledge of other teaching.

http://www.shepherdschapel.com/index.cfm

For example:

Little Gods

Not only does Arnold Murray teach a false concert of God, he also believes that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth. In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the "Our" and "Us" (which has normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal.2:10 cf. Job 9:8; Isa.44:24) Murray says, "he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?"-I told you, that God said "in Our image, Our likeness', the Elohim were standing there, they were from before." (Tape #146) We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.. (Kenites, Tape #436) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is "one man,...our Father," and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God "(sic) gots three offices he serves". (Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-14-91)

http://www.angelfire.com/me/Merethe/arnoldmurray.html

 

[Bick]

Jesus said.....

• John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before...just as we will again be with Him when our flesh body perishes. We descended from heaven!

What catches my eye in the above verse is Jesus made that statment when He was teaching on earth. How can He be there teaching while at the same time be "in heaven?" Is heaven wherever He is?

• Matthew 18:3 And said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
  
  Luke 17:20-21 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, 'Lo, here!' or, "lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

He is the King of His dominion...the King-dom. His kingdom is within us as He lives in and walks in us. We are the kingdom of heaven but does that mean we are in heaven as stated in [John 3:13]? "The Son of man in heaven?"

• John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  
  [list:w5l683uy]As a side note...it is odd to me that the condemned should have believed "in the name of" and not simply...believed in "the only begotten Son of God." I'm not sure what is being said but...it means something.

[/list:u:w5l683uy]

In those two verses in [John] we see the Son of man and the Son of God. Why? What does that mean?

MY COMMENTS:

Concerning John 3:13, Another viable interpretation of that passage, and beyond to verse 21, is, those are the words of John the writer.
This means that verse 13-21 are not quoting Jesus, but are the inspired words of the Apostle John, and makes sense for when John wrote it Jesus was in heaven.

In the Gospels, especially, determining when Jesus word end and the writers description starts can be difficult.

As to you belief that "all souls are from heaven etc", let's review Genesis 2:7:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul." KJV.

NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul when the breath of the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.

Bu using a concordance, one can look up all the places where soul (nephesh-Heb.; psuche-Greek) occur in the scriptures. It is a long study. It is my conclusion that the 'soul' is the sensation, the desire, the thought, the feelings and all that comrpises consciousness.

As for Luke 17:20-21, a more literal translation of vs. 21 is "..the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Jesus could say that, for he the King was in their midst.

It is obvious that the kingdom of God was not "within" them, for they hated him and wanted to kill him.

We believers are members of the Church, the body of Christ. And one of the mysteries revealed to Paul, is that Christ through his spirit dwells in us, and guides us in our Christian walk.

I certainly don't believe some part of us is in heaven. BUT, God, who knows the future, has enspired Paul to tell us that
"God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he love us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace you have been saved;) and hath raised us up together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.." Eph. 2:5-6, KJV.
AND
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affections on things above, not on things on the earth." Col. 3:1-2, KJV.

So, we know how glorious our hope is.

Concerning the John 3:18 passage, and the phrase, "in the name of":

I believe the "name" of God, or the Son of God, stands for his essence, his authority, his person.
Throughout the Bible, to 'praise the name of the Lord' is to praise Him;
to blaspheme the 'name of the Lord' is to blaspheme Him.

Jesus referred to himself as the "Son of man" many, many times during His earthly ministry. This was because he identified with humanity.

As to "the Son of God", as far as I have found, Jesus never said publicly "I am the Son of God."
During his earthly ministry he referred to himself as "the Son of God" only once or twice. However,
there are a number places where others called him the "Son of God."

 

[whirlwind]

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before...just as we will again be with Him when our flesh body perishes. We descended from heaven!

That's Mormonism. That's Arnold Murrayism. Certainly not from the Bible.

I'm not Mormon and I'm not Arnold Murray. Certainly it is from the Bible you just haven't yet seen it.

Man was "made" on earth. He was "created" on earth with the dust of the ground and the breath of God Himself. No where does it state that man was a living soul in heaven that came down to earth to live.

Yes...our flesh body was created on earth from the dust of the ground. But, our soul is from heaven. We were with Him before and will be with Him again. Same soul just wrapped in flesh for this time of testing:

• John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

Did our flesh come down from heaven? Why no :o so...it is our souls that made the trip! :yes

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man "became" a living soul once God breathed into His nostrils.

He certainly did. I became a "living soul" when I received His Spirit too. I was a soul before but I became a "living" soul.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;

I agree with Job. All the while I live and breath, all the while His Spirit is in me...."My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit." [27:4] Although I agree with Job what does that verse have to do with this discussion?

 

[handy]

I'm Christian and my Bible tells us we were with Him before.

Can you show me WHERE in the Bible it says that we pre-existed? (Please don't use Jeremiah 1:5, as that is one that Mormons like to use and it is used incorrectly when trying to support pre-existence.)

I forget who posted it, but they were right when they say that is Mormon doctrine.

I'm with you Todd. I'd like to see where the Bible says that "we were with Him before". I see where Jesus was with God before His incarnation, but as He is the eternal Son, that's a given. John 3:13 certainly doesn't say that we were in heaven before either.

 

[whirlwind]

He also told me that Mr. Murray's church was non-denominational. Were you suggesting he was Mormon?

No.

What do you know about the man?

I used to watch his program for about 6 months after I became a Christian. He's of the "serpent seed" type teaching where he believes Adam and Eve had sex with the serpent and Cain is the "serpent seed" and that God purposely had Noah take this "serpent seed" along with him on the ark.

Weird stuff.

Weird? Not understood perhaps but...weird?

• Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom: but the tares are the children of the wicked one: The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

See...not so weird at all. Jesus tells us about it.

[quote:3hl8f1tp]Worth listening to?

To check him out and see what it is he teaches? You bet. I think it pays to have a wide ranging knowledge of other teaching.

http://www.shepherdschapel.com/index.cfm

For example:

Little Gods

Not only does Arnold Murray teach a false concert of God, he also believes that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth. In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the "Our" and "Us" (which has normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal.2:10 cf. Job 9:8; Isa.44:24) Murray says, "he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?"-I told you, that God said "in Our image, Our likeness', the Elohim were standing there, they were from before." (Tape #146) We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.. (Kenites, Tape #436) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is "one man,...our Father," and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God "(sic) gots three offices he serves". (Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-14-91)[/quote:3hl8f1tp]


http://www.angelfire.com/me/Merethe/arnoldmurray.html[/quote]


I came across something the other day that applies to this.

• Acts 12:14-15 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her, "Thou art mad." But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, "It is his angel."

It seems they knew that our angel, our spirit bodies, would look like our flesh bodies. Isn't that the neatest thing? We'll recognize each other. We won't be floating pieces of smoke. :yes

 

[TheCatholic]

Son of God and Son of Man both mean the same thing.

Not neccessarily.

Son of Man is a messianic title.
Son of God refers to the fact that Jesus shares the same nature as his Father and is thus fully God as well as fully man.

 

[whirlwind]

I'm Christian and my Bible tells us we were with Him before.

Can you show me WHERE in the Bible it says that we pre-existed? (Please don't use Jeremiah 1:5, as that is one that Mormons like to use and it is used incorrectly when trying to support pre-existence.)

I forget who posted it, but they were right when they say that is Mormon doctrine.

Hi Toddm,

Whether or not it is a doctrine of the Mormons isn't the deciding factor. I mean...are they wrong in all things? Are the Catholics wrong in all things? Are the Baptists wrong in all things? So, you are making the right statment...."show me where in the Bible it says." That is always the determining factor. If the Mormons use Jeremiah [1:5] then it should certainly be considered for they didn't write it.

• Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
  
  Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth. It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger." As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
  
  Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Consider too that when Satan made his first appearance in the garden he was already in his fallen state. When did that happen? There was a time before the beginning of this age when our souls existed.