Son of God....Son of man

[whirlwind]

Hmmm... after reading about some of his teachings it seems like he was somewhat like a 'Gene Scott' type of preacher. Gene Scott was a terribly intelligent man but doctrinally slid into the fringe and behaved erratically sometimes. I'll just be sure to be careful then. I, for example, still listen to Melissa Scott's sermons sometimes, but am wary of certain things that her and Gene (her husband) teach that aren't entirely correct. But that's not to say you can't glean any truth from such people's teachings. If anything it will spur me to study my Bible more.

God Bless,

~Josh

Well....aren't you the smart Alabama boy, says the lady from Alabama.

I too have a Companion Bible and agree with you on being spurred on!

 

[whirlwind]

Jesus said.....

• John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

All souls are from heaven. We don't simply pop up unannounced in our mother's womb. We were with Him before...just as we will again be with Him when our flesh body perishes. We descended from heaven!

What catches my eye in the above verse is Jesus made that statment when He was teaching on earth. How can He be there teaching while at the same time be "in heaven?" Is heaven wherever He is?

• Matthew 18:3 And said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
  
  Luke 17:20-21 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, 'Lo, here!' or, "lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

He is the King of His dominion...the King-dom. His kingdom is within us as He lives in and walks in us. We are the kingdom of heaven but does that mean we are in heaven as stated in [John 3:13]? "The Son of man in heaven?"

• John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  
  [list:19o5hxn3]As a side note...it is odd to me that the condemned should have believed "in the name of" and not simply...believed in "the only begotten Son of God." I'm not sure what is being said but...it means something.

[/list:u:19o5hxn3]

In those two verses in [John] we see the Son of man and the Son of God. Why? What does that mean?

MY COMMENTS:

Concerning John 3:13, Another viable interpretation of that passage, and beyond to verse 21, is, those are the words of John the writer.
This means that verse 13-21 are not quoting Jesus, but are the inspired words of the Apostle John, and makes sense for when John wrote it Jesus was in heaven.

In the Gospels, especially, determining when Jesus word end and the writers description starts can be difficult.

Hi Bick,

The words written in John 3:13 are from Jesus...not John. Nicodemus asked Him and "Jesus answered and said unto him." It is Christ telling us "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Heaven is where He is. He abides IN US. He walks IN US. He is The Man Child but we are His man children. We are the man child the woman brought forth. We, as His elect are "caught up unto God," when our old man dies and we are born again.

• Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

As to you belief that "all souls are from heaven etc", let's review Genesis 2:7:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul." KJV.

NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul when the breath of the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.

The body was created from the dust of the ground. Our soul is within our body from conception. We become a LIVING soul when His Spirit enters us.

Bu using a concordance, one can look up all the places where soul (nephesh-Heb.; psuche-Greek) occur in the scriptures. It is a long study. It is my conclusion that the 'soul' is the sensation, the desire, the thought, the feelings and all that comrpises consciousness.

We are all souls. Some of us are living souls and others are dead...spiritually!

As for Luke 17:20-21, a more literal translation of vs. 21 is "..the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Jesus could say that, for he the King was in their midst.

It is obvious that the kingdom of God was not "within" them, for they hated him and wanted to kill him.

We believers are members of the Church, the body of Christ. And one of the mysteries revealed to Paul, is that Christ through his spirit dwells in us, and guides us in our Christian walk.

I certainly don't believe some part of us is in heaven. BUT, God, who knows the future, has enspired Paul to tell us that
"God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he love us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace you have been saved;) and hath raised us up together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.." Eph. 2:5-6, KJV.
AND
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affections on things above, not on things on the earth." Col. 3:1-2, KJV.

So, we know how glorious our hope is.

Concerning the John 3:18 passage, and the phrase, "in the name of":

I believe the "name" of God, or the Son of God, stands for his essence, his authority, his person.
Throughout the Bible, to 'praise the name of the Lord' is to praise Him;
to blaspheme the 'name of the Lord' is to blaspheme Him.

Jesus referred to himself as the "Son of man" many, many times during His earthly ministry. This was because he identified with humanity.

As to "the Son of God", as far as I have found, Jesus never said publicly "I am the Son of God."
During his earthly ministry he referred to himself as "the Son of God" only once or twice. However,
there are a number places where others called him the "Son of God."

There is ONE begotten Son of God but there are many sons of God. We are sons of God and we are sons of man.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Not only does Arnold Murray teach a false concert of God, he also believes that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth. In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the "Our" and "Us" (which has normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal.2:10 cf. Job 9:8; Isa.44:24) Murray says, "he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?"-I told you, that God said "in Our image, Our likeness', the Elohim were standing there, they were from before." (Tape #146) We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.. (Kenites, Tape #436) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is "one man,...our Father," and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God "(sic) gots three offices he serves". (Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-14-91)[/i]

http://www.angelfire.com/me/Merethe/arnoldmurray.html

That's interesting...
Satan told Eve that they will be like gods. Funny how this doctrine aligns with the lies that Satan told...

 

[toddm]

Hi Toddm,

Whether or not it is a doctrine of the Mormons isn't the deciding factor. I mean...are they wrong in all things? Are the Catholics wrong in all things? Are the Baptists wrong in all things? So, you are making the right statment...."show me where in the Bible it says." That is always the determining factor. If the Mormons use Jeremiah [1:5] then it should certainly be considered for they didn't write it.

You're implying that it hasn't been considered. It has, and just because someone uses a verse doesn't mean they apply the correct hermeneutic, interpretation, or context. Satan used Scripture and manipulated it too! That's where discernment and proper Bible interpretation skills are required.

• Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
  
  Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth. It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger." As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
  
  Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ok, the problem here is that you have a wrong understanding of biblical "foreknowledge". The word for "know" in Hebrew is "yada", which denotes an intimate, personal relationship (ie, Adam knew Eve). Now, I'm certainly not suggesting anything sexual here, but "yada" means something much more than a sexual relationship - it is knowing someone in a very real and personal way, like a husband and wife know each other's details, personalities, quirks, etc.

Now, God transcends time, right? So, if if that's the case then God knows all those He has elected since before creation (Eph. 1:4,5), not that He looks down the "tunnels of time" but He knows yesterday, today, and tomorrow as if He's looking at one picture. The verses you've quoted in an attempt to support pre-existence actually support predestination. God "knew" in a sense that they were pre-ordained, pre-consecrated (set apart), elected, predestined before time (hence the "fore"). It's not saying that God had a relationship w/ us in heaven before we came to earth, it's saying that He had a relationship w/ us before we had a relationship w/ Him - He was pursuing us and because He chose to love His elect since before creation, He foreknew us before we knew Him.

Consider too that when Satan made his first appearance in the garden he was already in his fallen state. When did that happen? There was a time before the beginning of this age when our souls existed.

I don't see how the 1st part of this paragraph and the second part make any kind of connection. What does Satan's fallen state have anything to do w/ human beings pre-existing? Satan has a completely different nature than us - he's an angel; we're not.

 

[whirlwind]

Not only does Arnold Murray teach a false concert of God, he also believes that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth. In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the "Our" and "Us" (which has normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal.2:10 cf. Job 9:8; Isa.44:24) Murray says, "he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are. Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?"-I told you, that God said "in Our image, Our likeness', the Elohim were standing there, they were from before." (Tape #146) We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.. (Kenites, Tape #436) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is "one man,...our Father," and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God "(sic) gots three offices he serves". (Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-14-91)[/i]

http://www.angelfire.com/me/Merethe/arnoldmurray.html

That's interesting...
Satan told Eve that they will be like gods. Funny how this doctrine aligns with the lies that Satan told...

What part of the following are you attributing to Satan?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[whirlwind]

Hi Toddm,

Whether or not it is a doctrine of the Mormons isn't the deciding factor. I mean...are they wrong in all things? Are the Catholics wrong in all things? Are the Baptists wrong in all things? So, you are making the right statment...."show me where in the Bible it says." That is always the determining factor. If the Mormons use Jeremiah [1:5] then it should certainly be considered for they didn't write it.

You're implying that it hasn't been considered. It has, and just because someone uses a verse doesn't mean they apply the correct hermeneutic, interpretation, or context. Satan used Scripture and manipulated it too! That's where discernment and proper Bible interpretation skills are required.

• Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
  
  Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth. It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger." As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
  
  Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ok, the problem here is that you have a wrong understanding of biblical "foreknowledge". The word for "know" in Hebrew is "yada", which denotes an intimate, personal relationship (ie, Adam knew Eve). Now, I'm certainly not suggesting anything sexual here, but "yada" means something much more than a sexual relationship - it is knowing someone in a very real and personal way, like a husband and wife know each other's details, personalities, quirks, etc.

Now, God transcends time, right? So, if if that's the case then God knows all those He has elected since before creation (Eph. 1:4,5), not that He looks down the "tunnels of time" but He knows yesterday, today, and tomorrow as if He's looking at one picture. The verses you've quoted in an attempt to support pre-existence actually support predestination. God "knew" in a sense that they were pre-ordained, pre-consecrated (set apart), elected, predestined before time (hence the "fore"). It's not saying that God had a relationship w/ us in heaven before we came to earth, it's saying that He had a relationship w/ us before we had a relationship w/ Him - He was pursuing us and because He chose to love His elect since before creation, He foreknew us before we knew Him.

If you want to believe that then...okay. Then He hated Esau, loved Jacob...chose His elect and yet we're told...

• Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[quote:so5kthu1]Consider too that when Satan made his first appearance in the garden he was already in his fallen state. When did that happen? There was a time before the beginning of this age when our souls existed.

I don't see how the 1st part of this paragraph and the second part make any kind of connection. What does Satan's fallen state have anything to do w/ human beings pre-existing? Satan has a completely different nature than us - he's an angel; we're not.[/quote:so5kthu1]


Yes...he is an angel. What were we before we were born in flesh...what will we again be?

 

[RND]

I'm not Mormon and I'm not Arnold Murray. Certainly it is from the Bible you just haven't yet seen it.

Personally, I don't care who you identify yourself with. Asumming that man was at one time in heaven before creation is a certain teaching that has -zero- Biblical support.

Yes...our flesh body was created on earth from the dust of the ground. But, our soul is from heaven. We were with Him before and will be with Him again. Same soul just wrapped in flesh for this time of testing:

Man is "made" of two things, dust and the Spirit or breath of God. Nowhere is there any scripture to be referenced that suggest this breath or Spirit was taken from heaven and given to man.

• John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

Did our flesh come down from heaven? Why no :o so...it is our souls that made the trip!

:yes

The verse you reference here is in relation to Jesus Christ only and not to man.

He certainly did. I became a "living soul" when I received His Spirit too. I was a soul before but I became a "living" soul.

No, I hate to break the bad news to you but you weren't a soul in heaven waiting for God to make you a body on earth where your soul could be housed. That's classic Mormonism and whether you are a Mormon or not you are subscribing to their beliefs.

[quote:2l2x4bcj]
Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;

I agree with Job. All the while I live and breath, all the while His Spirit is in me...."My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit." [27:4] Although I agree with Job what does that verse have to do with this discussion? [/quote:2l2x4bcj]If you were truly in agreement with Job here you would plain see that Job is comparing the breath in his lungs with the Spirit of God. When that Spirit leaves the lungs their is death, not a floating off to heaven.

 

[RND]

Weird? Not understood perhaps but...weird?

• Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom: but the tares are the children of the wicked one: The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

See...not so weird at all. Jesus tells us about it.

You should do a word study sometime on the difference between speiro and sperma so this type of deception you are allowing your itching ears accept don't twist scripture to you're own destruction.

This seed sowed by the devil was not done "sexually" as the word speiro indicates.

I came across something the other day that applies to this.

• Acts 12:14-15 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her, "Thou art mad." But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, "It is his angel."

It seems they knew that our angel, our spirit bodies, would look like our flesh bodies. Isn't that the neatest thing? We'll recognize each other. We won't be floating pieces of smoke. :yes

Have you ever wondered why no one goes to heaven without a body in scripture?

 

[whirlwind]

I'm not Mormon and I'm not Arnold Murray. Certainly it is from the Bible you just haven't yet seen it.

Personally, I don't care who you identify yourself with. Asumming that man was at one time in heaven before creation is a certain teaching that has -zero- Biblical support.

Good...because I don't personally care either. Please notice...it wasn't me bringing them up. ;)

As far as zero Biblical support...

[quote:70mrh0lo]Yes...our flesh body was created on earth from the dust of the ground. But, our soul is from heaven. We were with Him before and will be with Him again. Same soul just wrapped in flesh for this time of testing:

Man is "made" of two things, dust and the Spirit or breath of God. Nowhere is there any scripture to be referenced that suggest this breath or Spirit was taken from heaven and given to man.[/quote:70mrh0lo]

I didn't say the Spirit was I said the soul was. He imparts the spirit into the soul that is from heaven.

[quote:70mrh0lo]

• John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

Did our flesh come down from heaven? Why no :o so...it is our souls that made the trip![/b] :yes

The verse you reference here is in relation to Jesus Christ only and not to man.[/quote:70mrh0lo]


Sure, that's why it says "no man" and then specifies "even the Son of man." :rolling

[quote:70mrh0lo]He certainly did. I became a "living soul" when I received His Spirit too. I was a soul before but I became a "living" soul.

No, I hate to break the bad news to you but you weren't a soul in heaven waiting for God to make you a body on earth where your soul could be housed. That's classic Mormonism and whether you are a Mormon or not you are subscribing to their beliefs.[/quote:70mrh0lo]


There is that word you don't care about again. I'M NOT A MORMON....not that you care.

[quote:70mrh0lo][quote:70mrh0lo]
Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;

I agree with Job. All the while I live and breath, all the while His Spirit is in me...."My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit." [27:4] Although I agree with Job what does that verse have to do with this discussion? [/quote:70mrh0lo]If you were truly in agreement with Job here you would plain see that Job is comparing the breath in his lungs with the Spirit of God. When that Spirit leaves the lungs their is death, not a floating off to heaven.[/quote:70mrh0lo]

Notice that Job shows there is a difference in "my breath in me" and "the spirit of God." There is NO comparison at all. The breath in him allows him to live physically. The spirit of God allows him to live spiritually.

As per our Father....

• Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be brokem, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT.

As we return unto God who gave it....where do you suppose that would be? Also consider...we don't go to God who gave it....but we RETURN to God.

 

[whirlwind]

Weird? Not understood perhaps but...weird?

• Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom: but the tares are the children of the wicked one: The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

See...not so weird at all. Jesus tells us about it.

You should do a word study sometime on the difference between speiro and sperma so this type of deception you are allowing your itching ears accept don't twist scripture to you're own destruction.

This seed sowed by the devil was not done "sexually" as the word speiro indicates.

We seem to have a situation here between either "itching ears" or "deaf ears" along with "blind eyes." :yes In Matthew 13 the tares are the CHILDREN OF the wicked one. The word "speiro" I don't see connected with this but I certainly don't mind someone teaching it.

[quote:2q9fee9n]I came across something the other day that applies to this.

• Acts 12:14-15 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her, "Thou art mad." But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, "It is his angel."

It seems they knew that our angel, our spirit bodies, would look like our flesh bodies. Isn't that the neatest thing? We'll recognize each other. We won't be floating pieces of smoke. :yes

Have you ever wondered why no one goes to heaven without a body in scripture?[/quote:2q9fee9n]

Not really because we do have a body...it just won't be flesh.

 

[RND]

Good...because I don't personally care either. Please notice...it wasn't me bringing them up. ;)

As far as zero Biblical support...

You are espousing the same beliefs so you can hopefully see and understand where my confusion came from.

I didn't say the Spirit was I said the soul was. He imparts the spirit into the soul that is from heaven.[/b]

The Bible clearly says that man was made a soul on earth, not in heaven.

Sure, that's why it says "no man" and then specifies "even the Son of man." :rolling

No man as in no man. No man has ascending (gone up to) heaven but the One (Jesus) that came down from heaven. This is referencing the incarnation of God, Jesus Christ, as a man.

There is that word you don't care about again. I'M NOT A MORMON....not that you care.

You are parroting their beliefs. Thus you are spouting unbiblical doctrine.

Notice that Job shows there is a difference in "my breath in me" and "the spirit of God." There is NO comparison at all. The breath in him allows him to live physically. The spirit of God allows him to live spiritually.

Job is making no "difference" at all. He plainly says that while there is breath in his lungs the "Spirit" of God in in him. It's a simple comparison frankly.

As per our Father....

• Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be brokem, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT.

That's right. The "breath" the "spirit" that God gave returns to Him. That's not to say the "soul" floats off to heaven. The "soul" (body) begins to decompose at death and return to dust where it was taken. The breath returns to God.

As we return unto God who gave it....where do you suppose that would be? Also consider...we don't go to God who gave it....but we RETURN to God.

"We" don't go anywhere at death other than the tomb. The body stays here. Since by your own understanding the "Spirit" isn't the "soul" then when the "Spirit" returns it is not the "soul" that returns....simply the breath of God.

Look at it this way. When a light bulb gives out is it because there is no more electricity or because the light bulb simply broke? Yet the light bulb is still there. Will giving it electricity help the light come on? Nope.

 

[RND]

Weird? Not understood perhaps but...weird?

• Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom: but the tares are the children of the wicked one: The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

See...not so weird at all. Jesus tells us about it.

You should do a word study sometime on the difference between speiro and sperma so this type of deception you are allowing your itching ears accept don't twist scripture to you're own destruction.

This seed sowed by the devil was not done "sexually" as the word speiro indicates.

We seem to have a situation here between either "itching ears" or "deaf ears" along with "blind eyes." :yes In Matthew 13 the tares are the CHILDREN OF the wicked one. The word "speiro" I don't see connected with this but I certainly don't mind someone teaching it.

The word speiro is associated with casting seed as a farmer would cast seed. Thus when Jesus says the enemy "sowed" them it means he (Satan) planted them as a farmer would, not as in a sexual liaison. It's very simple to digest really.

Have you ever wondered why no one goes to heaven without a body in scripture?

Not really because we do have a body...it just won't be flesh. [/quote]Nor do we ascend to heaven without one. Enoch didn't, Elijah didn't, Moshe didn't and most certainly Jesus didn't. You will find -zero- count 'em -zero- scriptures that say we go to heaven as a spirit without a body.

 

[whirlwind]

Good...because I don't personally care either. Please notice...it wasn't me bringing them up. ;)

As far as zero Biblical support...

You are espousing the same beliefs so you can hopefully see and understand where my confusion came from.

I didn't say the Spirit was I said the soul was. He imparts the spirit into the soul that is from heaven.[/b]

The Bible clearly says that man was made a soul on earth, not in heaven.

To me it says....man was made a LIVING soul. He was already a soul.

[quote:mtzox3tk] Sure, that's why it says "no man" and then specifies "even the Son of man." :rolling

No man as in no man. No man has ascending (gone up to) heaven but the One (Jesus) that came down from heaven. This is referencing the incarnation of God, Jesus Christ, as a man.[/quote:mtzox3tk]


Is that really what you see? It doesn't make sense. In our way of speaking it says...No man goes up except the same man that came down and it applies EVEN to our Savior.

[quote:mtzox3tk]
There is that word you don't care about again. I'M NOT A MORMON....not that you care.

You are parroting their beliefs. Thus you are spouting unbiblical doctrine.[/quote:mtzox3tk]


I don't know diddly squat about Mormons but I will ask...do they believe in God? Do they believe in the Son? Are all of their beliefs unbiblical? How about Catholics? How about Protestants? Because the Catholics bow to Mary are they wrong about everything? Because the Baptist teach rapture are they wrong about everything? If I am "spouting unbiblical doctrine" then.....PROVE IT with His Word without trying to fit me into some religious sect.

[quote:mtzox3tk]Notice that Job shows there is a difference in "my breath in me" and "the spirit of God." There is NO comparison at all. The breath in him allows him to live physically. The spirit of God allows him to live spiritually.

Job is making no "difference" at all. He plainly says that while there is breath in his lungs the "Spirit" of God in in him. It's a simple comparison frankly.[/quote:mtzox3tk]


It is not!

• Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, AND the spirit of GOD is in my nostrils;

The breath is in him AND the spirit is in his nostrils. It is not a comparison but a decided difference in breath and spirit. :naughty

[quote:mtzox3tk]As per our Father....

• Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT.

That's right. The "breath" the "spirit" that God gave returns to Him. That's not to say the "soul" floats off to heaven. The "soul" (body) begins to decompose at death and return to dust where it was taken. The breath returns to God. [/quote:mtzox3tk]


The spirit and soul become one. The spirit is the intellect of the soul. How do you expect a soul, a spiritual thing to decompose? Flesh decomposes....not our soul.

[quote:mtzox3tk]As we return unto God who gave it....where do you suppose that would be? Also consider...we don't go to God who gave it....but we RETURN to God.[/b]

"We" don't go anywhere at death other than the tomb. The body stays here. Since by your own understanding the "Spirit" isn't the "soul" then when the "Spirit" returns it is not the "soul" that returns....simply the breath of God.[/quote:mtzox3tk]


The spirit and soul are one. You can stay if you want but I'm not.

Look at it this way. When a light bulb gives out is it because there is no more electricity or because the light bulb simply broke? Yet the light bulb is still there. Will giving it electricity help the light come on? Nope.

The spirit is the electricity, the light in us. The soul is either living spiritually or dead spiritually because of one's spirit.

 

[whirlwind]

The word speiro is associated with casting seed as a farmer would cast seed. Thus when Jesus says the enemy "sowed" them it means he (Satan) planted them as a farmer would, not as in a sexual liaison. It's very simple to digest really.

Well good...I'm glad it's so simple to digest. :D

The word speiro is associated with casting seed as a farmer. That word is NOT associated with seed as used in Matthew 13:38-39.

Nor do we ascend to heaven without one. Enoch didn't, Elijah didn't, Moshe didn't and most certainly Jesus didn't. You will find -zero- count 'em -zero- scriptures that say we go to heaven as a spirit without a body.

I'm not saying we don't have a body. Our soul is our body. We are angels and angels have bodies. They eat, sit, walk, talk, etc. They are us. You are still seeing a spirit as some type of ghostly apparition. Think angelic being.

 

[RND]

To me it says....man was made a LIVING soul. He was already a soul.

Not "was made" but "became."

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 + 1 = 2. Dust + God's breath = a Living soul. That doesn't mean man was already a soul it clearly means he "became" one.

Is that really what you see? It doesn't make sense. In our way of speaking it says...No man goes up except the same man that came down and it applies EVEN to our Savior.

Yes, that's exactly what I see. No man has ascended to heaven by way of resurrection as Jesus had. Jesus was prophesying what would happen at His death. Also, please note that "even" is bracketed or italicized and thus is not part of the original manuscript.

Note these other translations confirm my assessment:

NIV - No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.
ESV - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
RSV - No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

I don't know diddly squat about Mormons

Evidently.

but I will ask...do they believe in God?

Sure. So do Buddist.

Do they believe in the Son?

Yes, as a created being.

Are all of their beliefs unbiblical?

Some.

How about Catholics?

Rooted in paganism.

How about Protestants?

Same thing.

Because the Catholics bow to Mary are they wrong about everything? Because the Baptist teach rapture are they wrong about everything? If I am "spouting unbiblical doctrine" then.....PROVE IT with His Word without trying to fit me into some religious sect.

I have proven it with the word. There are -zero- scriptures that suggest that man floats off to heaven without his body upon death. None.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

See Job 14:10-15.

It is not!

• Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, AND the spirit of GOD is in my nostrils;

The breath is in him AND the spirit is in his nostrils. It is not a comparison but a decided difference in breath and spirit[/b]. :naughty

Let's try again:

Again the NIV - as long as I have life within me, the breath of God in my nostrils,

The word "and" is not used in the original Hebrew. Thus we can see that Job is comparing the breath that is in him to to the Spirit of God being in his nostrils. And what to nostrils do? They breath air. Thus it is clear that the air is being compared to God's breath. Simple stuff.

The spirit and soul become one. The spirit is the intellect of the soul. How do you expect a soul, a spiritual thing to decompose? Flesh decomposes....not our soul.

No, you said specifically that the soul and spirit aren't the same thing so how can they become one? The "soul" is not a "spiritual thing" but a "living thing." Breath + dust = living soul. Thus without breath (spirit) the soul (body) dies. Simple stuff.

The spirit and soul are one. You can stay if you want but I'm not.

But you specifically said the two were separate and not the same thing so how can they become one and where in scripture do we ever see them joined. Breath + dust = living soul. When the breath leaves there is no more life and thus man is no longer a "living soul" but a "dead soul."

The spirit is the electricity, the light in us. The soul is either living spiritually or dead spiritually because of one's spirit.

The breath is electricity. The light bulb represents man. The light represents his life. Thus when the life goes out, the light, one can pump as much electricity into the body but since it is from God and God alone no amount of air is going to revive a dead man.

 

[RND]

Well good...I'm glad it's so simple to digest. :D

The word speiro is associated with casting seed as a farmer. That word is NOT associated with seed as used in Matthew 13:38-39.

Yes it is. Follow along. BTW, I have included the necessary links to prove my point.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowedthem is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Spiero = probably strengthened from spaw - spao 4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, i.e. sow (literally or figuratively):--sow(- er), receive seed.

I'm not saying we don't have a body. Our soul is our body.

I'm confused. In just the most recent post of yours you asked, "How do you expect a soul, a spiritual thing to decompose? Flesh decomposes....not our soul." The Bible clearly states that our bodies are in fact "living souls" that return to dust (decompose) at death. You seem to have created a massive hole for yourself that requires extradition.

We are angels and angels have bodies.

Men are not angels. Angels neither marry, nor are given in marriage.

They eat, sit, walk, talk, etc. They are us. You are still seeing a spirit as some type of ghostly apparition. Think angelic being.[/b]

Again, they're are no verses that compare a living breathing man as being the substance of an angel. This is surely unscriptural nonsense. I would propose adding a verse or two that conclusively states that man is like heavenly angels.

With almost impatient eagerness the angels wait for our co-operation; for man must be the channel to communicate with man. And when we give ourselves to Christ in whole-hearted devotion, angels rejoice that they may speak through our voices to reveal God's love.--The Desire of Ages, p. 297

Those who in the strength of Christ overcome the great enemy of God and man, will occupy a position in the heavenly courts above angels who have never fallen. -- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, page 1113

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowedthem is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Spiero = probably strengthened from spaw - spao 4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, i.e. sow (literally or figuratively):--sow(- er), receive seed.

You are using the wrong Hebrew word,,,the word is "sperma" not "speiro"

We do come from above,,,when we die our spirit/souls returns back to the father and our body to dust/dirt.....

There was a age before this one,,,,and I can document it all.........

 

[RND]

You are using the wrong Hebrew word,,,the word is "sperma" not "speiro"

The word for "sowed" in Matthew 13:39 is speiro, not sperma. Click the link.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

You are using the wrong Hebrew word,,,the word is "sperma" not "speiro"

The word for "sowed" in Matthew 13:39 is speiro, not sperma. Click the link.

ο δε εÇθÃÂο ο ÃÀειÃÂα αÅÄα εÃĀιν ο διαβολο ο δε θεÃÂιÃμο ÃÆ’Ã…νÄελεια ÄοÃ… ΰνο εÃĀιν οι δε θεÃÂιÃĀαι αγγελοι ειÃιν

now do we actually need the link?????

 

[RND]

You are using the wrong Hebrew word,,,the word is "sperma" not "speiro"

The word for "sowed" in Matthew 13:39 is speiro, not sperma. Click the link.

ο δε εÇθÃÂο ο ÃÀειÃÂα αÅÄα εÃĀιν ο διαβολο ο δε θεÃÂιÃμο ÃÆ’Ã…νÄελεια ÄοÃ… αιÉνο εÃĀιν οι δε θεÃÂιÃĀαι αγγελοι ειÃιν

now do we actually need the link?????

Yes. Apparently.

ὠδὲ á¼ÂÇθÃÂὸ ὠÃÀείÃÂα αá½ÂÃ„ά á¼ÂÃĀιν ὠδιάβολο ÃιÃμὸ ÃÆ’Ã…νÄέλεια Äοῦ αἰῶνÌ á¼ÂÃĀιν οἱ δὲ θεÃÂιÃĀαὶ ἄγγελοί εἰÃιν

The word in question is: Spiera, not sperma. Even the Greek you posted makes that abundantly clear: ÃÀείÃÂα = speirÃ…Â/ÃÀέÃÂμα = sperma