Soul sleep false?

[agua.]

I understand what resurrection means, and what you're trying to get at. But the story of Lazarus doesn't give you proof that the soul is without conscience.

Oky doky. So why do you think Jesus connected the resurrection to Yahweh being the God of the living ?

.

Well, it is biblical because whenever they use the term (to sleep), (asleep) or (sleep) in scripture, it is being used metaphorically and in a figure of speech. The OP site explain it well.

1Ti 6:15-16 KJV Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Yes sleep is a metaphor for death before the resurrection simply because everyone will be raised from the dead sorta like waking from sleep/unconsciousness which is why the metaphor is used.

 

[Kathi]

DRS this is copied and pasted but it is excellent Christian information.
Question: "Do we have two or three parts? Body, soul, and spirit? Dichotomy or trichotomy?"

Answer: Genesis 1:26-27 indicates that there is something that makes humanity distinct from all the other creations. Human beings were intended to have a relationship with God, and as such, God created us with both material and immaterial parts. The material is obviously that which is tangible: the physical body, bones, organs, etc., and exists as long as the person is alive. The immaterial aspects are those which are intangible: soul, spirit, intellect, will, conscience, etc. These exist beyond the physical lifespan of the individual.

All human beings possess both material and immaterial characteristics. It is clear that all mankind has a body containing flesh, blood, bones, organs, and cells. However, it is the intangible qualities of mankind that are often debated. What does Scripture say about these? Genesis 2:7 states that man was created as a living soul. Numbers 16:22 names God as the “God of the spirits” that are possessed by all mankind. Proverbs 4:23 tells us, “Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life,” indicating that the heart is central to man’s will and emotions. Acts 23:1 says, “Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, ‘My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.’” Here Paul refers to the conscience, that part of the mind that convicts us of right and wrong. Romans 12:2 states, “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” These verses, and numerous others, refer to the various aspects of the immaterial part of humanity. We all share both material and immaterial qualities.

So, Scripture outlines far more than just soul and spirit. Somehow, the soul, spirit, heart, conscience, and mind are connected and interrelated. The soul and spirit, though, definitely are the primary immaterial aspects of humanity. They likely comprise the other aspects. With this is mind, is humanity dichotomous (cut in two, body/soul-spirit), or trichotomous (cut in three, body/soul/spirit). It is impossible to be dogmatic. There are good arguments for both views. A key verse is Hebrews 4:12: “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” This verse tells us at least two things about this debate. The soul and spirit can be divided, and the division of soul and spirit is something that only God can discern. Rather than focusing on something we cannot know for sure, it is better to focus on the Creator, who has made us “fearfully and wonderfully” (Psalm 139:14).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html#ixzz34ZDOO2Jp

 

[Butch5]

Our soul lasts forever and ever.It will reunite with the body at the resurrection.When a soul goes to heaven immediately after death it has substance and it is very conscious of the fact they are in heaven.People in heaven know each other.We do not know what the substance is.When a soul of an unbeliever goes to hades it has substance as well and that soul is very conscious and aware they are in hades.

HI Kathi,

I'm sorry but that is not what the Scriptures teach. A soul is a living being with a body. A soul doesn't live forever, it lives as long as the body lives. The body of all people goes into hades (the grave) at death. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that souls go to Heaven when they die. They can't they don't exist. Scripture is also pretty clear on the state of the dead, it says they know nothing and have no remembrance of God.

4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psa 6:4-5 NKJ)

5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.
(Ecc 9:5-6 NKJ)

Scripture says the death know nothing, and have no memory of God.

 

[Kathi]

HI Kathi,

I'm sorry but that is not what the Scriptures teach. A soul is a living being with a body. A soul doesn't live forever, it lives as long as the body lives. The body of all people goes into hades (the grave) at death. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that souls go to Heaven when they die. They can't they don't exist. Scripture is also pretty clear on the state of the dead, it says they know nothing and have no remembrance of God.

4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psa 6:4-5 NKJ)

5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.
(Ecc 9:5-6 NKJ)

Scripture says the death know nothing, and have no memory of God.

Did you see the Bible verses that go along with the teaching?I guess you will just have to wait and see....hu?

 

[Butch5]

First, tell me what you believe are the component parts of the soul. Wouldn't the person's spirit be a part of his soul.

By person's spirit do you mean, who he is?

The component parts of man can be seen in the creation account in Gen. 2, they are a body and the breath of lives, the Neshamah of God.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Did you see the Bible verses that go along with the teaching?I guess you will just have to wait and see....hu?

Are you referring to those in the Op?

 

[Butch5]

DRS this is copied and pasted but it is excellent Christian information.
Question: "Do we have two or three parts? Body, soul, and spirit? Dichotomy or trichotomy?"

Answer: Genesis 1:26-27 indicates that there is something that makes humanity distinct from all the other creations. Human beings were intended to have a relationship with God, and as such, God created us with both material and immaterial parts. The material is obviously that which is tangible: the physical body, bones, organs, etc., and exists as long as the person is alive. The immaterial aspects are those which are intangible: soul, spirit, intellect, will, conscience, etc. These exist beyond the physical lifespan of the individual.

All human beings possess both material and immaterial characteristics. It is clear that all mankind has a body containing flesh, blood, bones, organs, and cells. However, it is the intangible qualities of mankind that are often debated. What does Scripture say about these? Genesis 2:7 states that man was created as a living soul. Numbers 16:22 names God as the “God of the spirits” that are possessed by all mankind. Proverbs 4:23 tells us, “Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life,” indicating that the heart is central to man’s will and emotions. Acts 23:1 says, “Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, ‘My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.’” Here Paul refers to the conscience, that part of the mind that convicts us of right and wrong. Romans 12:2 states, “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” These verses, and numerous others, refer to the various aspects of the immaterial part of humanity. We all share both material and immaterial qualities.

So, Scripture outlines far more than just soul and spirit. Somehow, the soul, spirit, heart, conscience, and mind are connected and interrelated. The soul and spirit, though, definitely are the primary immaterial aspects of humanity. They likely comprise the other aspects. With this is mind, is humanity dichotomous (cut in two, body/soul-spirit), or trichotomous (cut in three, body/soul/spirit). It is impossible to be dogmatic. There are good arguments for both views. A key verse is Hebrews 4:12: “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” This verse tells us at least two things about this debate. The soul and spirit can be divided, and the division of soul and spirit is something that only God can discern. Rather than focusing on something we cannot know for sure, it is better to focus on the Creator, who has made us “fearfully and wonderfully” (Psalm 139:14).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html#ixzz34ZDOO2Jp

I'm not a fan of Got Questions as I've found a good bit of error on that site. However, this seems fairly accurate, I would, however, disagree on two points. The immaterial parts of man that the article lists don't continue after the man dies, with the exception of the spirit which returns to God. The other point I would disagree with is that we can't know. Surely we can know it's stated plainly in Gen. 2:7. God formed man out of the dust of the ground. So man consists of earth, then God breathed into the man the breath of lives and man became a living soul, Body+Breath of Lives=Living Soul.

 

[Gary]

Soul sleep is a term that shows the state of all people between death and the resurrection.

Dan 12:2 KJV And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

That verse pretty much sums it up. (for me anyway) And as TOG pointed out, why all the back and forth between heaven and earth? It doesn't make sense.

What did Jesus say about the people He brought back to life? "They're only sleeping".

The last verse from Daniel 12.

Daniel 12
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

This verse says Daniel is resting until the end. It says that he will arise to his inheritance. If he's already in heaven, why make him wait until the end of the days to receive his inheritance? Also, there is no corruption in heaven so Daniel would have had to receive a part of his inheritance before entering heaven. A glorified body, which would be taken away from him just prior to the resurrection.


.

 

[DRS81]

.......When that happens, he is separated from his body, which goes back to the grave, and his soul goes back to earth to be reunited with his body a second time in what the Bible calls the first resurrection, and then he goes to Heaven for the third time, where he will stay for the rest of eternity.

You said (a man dies), well your example is different for a believer and nonbeliever. Your explanation is just silly and not biblical. Try again. You lost me at (When that happens...).

Oky doky. So why do you think Jesus connected the resurrection to Yahweh being the God of the living ?

How do you understand the resurrection and that God is life, but you do not believe our souls go to be with the Lord between death and resurrection. Since God is eternal, and the Holy Spirit dwells in believers why wouldn't (we also) be eternal.

1Ti 6:15-16 KJV Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yes sleep is a metaphor for death before the resurrection simply because everyone will be raised from the dead sorta like waking from sleep/unconsciousness which is why the metaphor is used.

Their (bodies) will be raised from the dead. Their souls don't sleep in the grave with their bodies. Their souls are in either heaven or hades right now.

(1) As the sleeper does not cease to exist while his body sleeps, so the dead person continues to exist. The grave is like a bed for the body.

(2) As the immaterial part of man when asleep is still functioning to some degree in that he dreams and his sub-conscious is still at work, so likewise the believer’s soul and spirit are awake and enjoying the presence of God.

(3) As sleep is temporary, so also is the death of the body. Sleep is a figure of speech for death and anticipates resurrection but it is not meant to suggest soul sleep. This is evident from the above verses, Phil. 1:23 and 2 Cor. 5:8.

A soul is a living being with a body. A soul doesn't live forever, it lives as long as the body lives.

Scripture says the death know nothing, and have no memory of God.

I disagree, the body is just the shell.
The body is the part that dies and waits for resurrection.
The soul is what makes us human beings Butch, and the body is just the shell.

(You said) (they have no memory of God), but scripture says, (for the memory of them is forgotten). This is not the same thing, did you simply type this wrong? 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

By person's spirit do you mean, who he is?

The component parts of man can be seen in the creation account in Gen. 2, they are a body and the breath of lives, the Neshamah of God.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

I'm still not understanding why you think the soul will not exist. The body is just the shell, the soul is eternal and what makes us human beings with personalities and such.

 

[agua.]

How do you understand the resurrection and that God is life, but you do not believe our souls go to be with the Lord between death and resurrection. Since God is eternal, and the Holy Spirit dwells in believers why wouldn't (we also) be eternal.

You still haven't answered my question I'm beginning to think you don't have an answer. It's ok to say "i don't know" . Saints are resurrected to life eternal this is why Yahweh is the God of the living. Yahweh is never said to be the God of the living in reference to the wicked because they will not continue living after the resurrection and judgement. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh not us I don't see how you can suggest because the Holy spirit is immortal so are we. OPnce we die the holy spirit is still the Holy Spirit. ie The Holy Spirit isn't us.

Their (bodies) will be raised from the dead. Their souls don't sleep in the grave with their bodies. Their souls are in either heaven or hades right now.

(1) As the sleeper does not cease to exist while his body sleeps, so the dead person continues to exist. The grave is like a bed for the body.

(2) As the immaterial part of man when asleep is still functioning to some degree in that he dreams and his sub-conscious is still at work, so likewise the believer’s soul and spirit are awake and enjoying the presence of God.

(3) As sleep is temporary, so also is the death of the body. Sleep is a figure of speech for death and anticipates resurrection but it is not meant to suggest soul sleep. This is evident from the above verses, Phil. 1:23 and 2 Cor. 5:8.

The soul is the Body + Yahweh's spirit so basically without the Body there is no soul. Sleep is referring to the whole person as when we're told those who are saved are sleeping in Jesus. When we're resurrected (wake) Yahweh reunites His Spirit/ Breath with our Body in the same way he created Adam. Paul knew about the resurrection and when it will happen ie. when Jesus returns.

1Co 15:50-52 KJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ( die ), but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:13-15 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep ( die ) in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[/quote][/quote]

 

[agua.]

That verse pretty much sums it up. (for me anyway) And as TOG pointed out, why all the back and forth between heaven and earth? It doesn't make sense.

What did Jesus say about the people He brought back to life? "They're only sleeping".

The last verse from Daniel 12.

Daniel 12
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

This verse says Daniel is resting until the end. It says that he will arise to his inheritance. If he's already in heaven, why make him wait until the end of the days to receive his inheritance? Also, there is no corruption in heaven so Daniel would have had to receive a part of his inheritance before entering heaven. A glorified body, which would be taken away from him just prior to the resurrection.


.

 

[Butch5]

I disagree, the body is just the shell.
The body is the part that dies and waits for resurrection.
The soul is what makes us human beings Butch, and the body is just the shell.

(You said) (they have no memory of God), but scripture says, (for the memory of them is forgotten). This is not the same thing, did you simply type this wrong? 5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

No, it's correct, their memory is gone in death, they have no memory just as the other passage said they have no memory of God.

4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psa 6:4-5 NKJ)

I'm still not understanding why you think the soul will not exist. The body is just the shell, the soul is eternal and what makes us human beings with personalities and such.

Because Genesis 2:7 says that God created man out of the dust of the earth.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJV)

The passage says God formed the man out of the dust of the ground, it doesn't say God formed a part of man out of the dust of the ground. All of man was formed out of the dust of the ground. God then breathed something from within Himself into the man and the man became something, a living soul. What He breathed into the man was the Neshamah (breath) of Lives. It was this Neshamah that gave life (animated) the man that was formed from the dust of the ground. Since the living soul is formed from the man and the breath of Lives if either one is not there the soul does not exist. If we have water and we take away the oxygen we no longer have water.

Given this I have to disagree that a body is just as shell, it is the man and isn't eternal as it dies.

 

[Kathi]

When Jesus was on the Cross the thief next to him who was saved Jesus told him today you will be with me in Paradise Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Why did Jesus say that if the thief's soul was not going to immediately be in heaven?

 

[DRS81]

Daniel 12
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

This verse says Daniel is resting until the end. It says that he will arise to his inheritance. If he's already in heaven, why make him wait until the end of the days to receive his inheritance? Also, there is no corruption in heaven so Daniel would have had to receive a part of his inheritance before entering heaven. A glorified body, which would be taken away from him just prior to the resurrection.
.

Gary. Your post actually makes sense. I'm trying my hardest to convince myself that soul sleep is true. The end of days is referring to the day of the Lord/rapture/first resurrection right? Inheritance..Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

 

[Kathi]

If you read the Bible literally soul sleep makes no sense.

 

[Gary]

You said (a man dies), well your example is different for a believer and nonbeliever. Your explanation is just silly and not biblical. Try again. You lost me at (When that happens...).

You do realize the example given was your belief...................right? If we go directly to heaven upon death, that's what happens. Back and forth.
.

 

[agua.]

If you read the Bible literally soul sleep makes no sense.

That depends on if you understand what you're reading.

 

[Gary]

That depends on if you understand what you're reading.

This is true.
.

 

[DRS81]

I taking break from thread, too much. Headache, advil coming.

 

[Kathi]

Have a nice night and God Bless.