Soul sleep false?

[agua.]

When Jesus was on the Cross the thief next to him who was saved Jesus told him today you will be with me in Paradise Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Why did Jesus say that if the thief's soul was not going to immediately be in heaven?

It's likely Jesus was saying " hey mate I'm telling you right now you will be with me in Paradise. " ie, the comma is inserted in the wrong place before today rather than after.

 

[Gary]

Gary. Your post actually makes sense. I'm trying my hardest to convince myself that soul sleep is true. The end of days is referring to the day of the Lord/rapture/first resurrection right? Inheritance..Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Here's how I read that passage. Having the Holy Spirit is a guarantee that we will receive an inheritance upon our redemption. Our redemption comes at the resurrection.
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[Butch5]

When Jesus was on the Cross the thief next to him who was saved Jesus told him today you will be with me in Paradise Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Why did Jesus say that if the thief's soul was not going to immediately be in heaven?

What was the thief's concern? Was it the kingdom or where they would be when they died?

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (Luk 23:42 KJV)

The thief wanted to know that he would be in the kingdom when Jesus came into His kingdom. The thief wasn't concerned where he'd be later that day, he already knew that he was hanging on a cross. He wanted to know that he would make it into the kingdom of God. Notice he called Jesus Lord, that's an acknowledgement that Jesus is the king and the judge, the one who would judge him. Jesus says, I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. What He is doing is giving His judgement right there on the cross telling the thief that he will be in the kingdom (paradise). He's telling the thief, that he will have eternal life, the thief can die knowing he will be in the kingdom as opposed to dying not knowing his fate.

If Jesus was telling the thief where they would be later that day it didn't address the concern the thief had.

There were no commas in the original text and the translators must choose where they think a comma should go. Moving the comma from before the word today and placing after the word today changes the meaning of the sentence.

 

[DRS81]

Here's how I read that passage. Having the Holy Spirit is a guarantee that we will receive an inheritance upon our redemption. Our redemption comes at the resurrection.
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Please explain what Abraham's bosom and Hades is in Luke 16:19-31.

 

[brother Paul]

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar (in heaven) the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth (these are in heaven not on earth but Christ has not yet avenged them)?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne (in heaven), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

And this is before the second coming...but they are not asleep,,,for they speak and say..."Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Can the unconscious speak? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord for all who are in christ Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne (in heaven), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

And this is before the second coming...but they are not asleep,,,for they speak and say..."Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Can the unconscious speak? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord for all who are in christ Jesus.

Firstly, John was seeing a vision. Also Revelation isn't in chronological order so I think this passage would have to be examined more deeply.

 

[brother Paul]

Yes that is fine, but one would have to say the Scriptures are in error to not see that those that asked for when He would avenge them were told to rest they had to wait a awhile longer and worshipped Him and praised Him continually...can the unconscious worship and praise? Is to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord? Or are the writings of Paul and John mistaken?

 

[agua.]

Yes that is fine, but one would have to say the Scriptures are in error to not see that those that asked for when He would avenge them were told to rest they had to wait a awhile longer and worshipped Him and praised Him continually...can the unconscious worship and praise? Is to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord? Or are the writings of Paul and John mistaken?

Either that or you don't understand what the scripture means.

 

[Butch5]

Yes that is fine, but one would have to say the Scriptures are in error to not see that those that asked for when He would avenge them were told to rest they had to wait a awhile longer and worshipped Him and praised Him continually...can the unconscious worship and praise? Is to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord? Or are the writings of Paul and John mistaken?

Are those passages I post wrong? Firstly, Revelation is a highly symbolic book it uses apocryphal language and illustrations. I would submit that the souls under the alter is symbolic and is alluding to Genesis. The question is, why are they under the altar?

Paul didn't say to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, he said, I am will rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. I've been in an ongoing study of the subject of Life after death for probably over a year and it is a very in depth study. In the study we have looked at these passages in depth and when they are studied more closely one finds they may not be saying what many think they are.

 

[brother Paul]

Well then I guess each group can choose for themselves (I mean we know thats what happens anyhoo) so what do you say about Moses on the mount of Transfig? Was this just symbolic? Metaphorical? Can we trust this word was true? Moses did die, the word says so....or was that too vague to be sure? No sarcasm, really what about the mount? What is your take....

 

[agua.]

Well then I guess each group can choose for themselves (I mean we know thats what happens anyhoo) so what do you say about Moses on the mount of Transfig? Was this just symbolic? Metaphorical? Can we trust this word was true? Moses did die, the word says so....or was that too vague to be sure? No sarcasm, really what about the mount? What is your take....

It was a vision of the Kingdom when Moses and Elijah will be resurrected. Jesus presented this vision to Peter and the SoT to show them that the Saints will live again with Him in the Kingdom after the resurrection. Moses and Elijah weren't actually there.

Mat 17:8-9 KJV And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. (9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

[DRS81]

Luke 16:22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Anyone wanna take a stab at this one.

 

[brother Paul]

It was a vision of the Kingdom when Moses and Elijah will be resurrected. Jesus presented this vision to Peter and the SoT to show them that the Saints will live again with Him in the Kingdom after the resurrection. Moses and Elijah weren't actually there.

Mat 17:8-9 KJV And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. (9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Interesting opinion agua...I disagree though...one has to read this interpretation into the text....yes it was a vision of the Kingdom....Jesus is Lord and the law and the prophets both yield to Him...but now how about elijah? He never died....where has he been...

 

[agua.]

Interesting opinion agua...I disagree though...one has to read this interpretation into the text....yes it was a vision of the Kingdom....Jesus is Lord and the law and the prophets both yield to Him...but now how about elijah? He never died....where has he been...

How do you get the law and the prophets both yielding to Jesus from the Transfiguration; I'm not saying you're wrong but aren't you interpreting this into the text ?

I didn't say anything about Elijah dying but that he will be in the Kingdom after the resurrection. The implications of Elijah and Enoch not dying ( whatever it means ) I haven't fully considered. There's a tread on it somewhere and I think Butch might have a better idea than me.
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[Gary]

Please explain what Abraham's bosom and Hades is in Luke 16:19-31.

I've always seen Abraham's bosom as a place of comfort, a place of rest .

I've never given much thought to Hades or what happens to nonbelievers when they die. The place sounds really warm and deserted.
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[DRS81]

I've always seen Abraham's bosom as a place of comfort, a place of rest .

I've never given much thought to Hades or what happens to nonbelievers when they die. The place sounds really warm and deserted.
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Dodging the question?

 

[brother Paul]

Even most Rabbis from before Jesus (Hillel and Shamai) believed people were aware in Sheol (Hades in the Greek) but the word also means grave and can be used to refer to either place....some people are only temporal beings so as a soul who knows for sure (I take Jesus story of Lazarus and the Richman to be giving us His opinion and the Mount of Transfig to be literal not symbolic) but we who are born from above are new creatures in Christ (is He asleep?). We are spirit beings (eternal)...as a son of God I do not cease temporarily (eternal means without an end)

And Agua what I meant was that YHVH the Son is LORD of both...

 

[Gary]

Dodging the question?

I answered your question.

Please explain what Abraham's bosom and Hades is in Luke 16:19-31.

I've always seen Abraham's bosom as a place of comfort, a place of rest .

I've never given much thought to Hades or what happens to nonbelievers when they die. The place sounds really warm and deserted.

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[DRS81]

I answered your question.

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It said both men died and either went to Abraham's bosom or Hades. If soul sleep is true, then why does this scripture exist. Luke 16:19-31.

 

[Kathi]

Even most Rabbis from before Jesus (Hillel and Shamai) believed people were aware in Sheol (Hades in the Greek) but the word also means grave and can be used to refer to either place....some people are only temporal beings so as a soul who knows for sure (I take Jesus story of Lazarus and the Richman to be giving us His opinion and the Mount of Transfig to be literal not symbolic) but we who are born from above are new creatures in Christ (is He asleep?). We are spirit beings (eternal)...as a son of God I do not cease temporarily (eternal means without an end)

And Agua what I meant was that YHVH the Son is LORD of both...

Good evening brother Paul and God's Blessings to you.May I ask what you mean by "temporal beings".