SOUL SLEEP - TRUE/FALSE

[jasonc]

Jason,

You say that 'hades is a different creature then (sic) sheol'. Those who know Hebrew and Greek disagree with you.

According to OT commentators Keil & Delitzsch, 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death' (Commentary on the Old Testament, vol 1. Eerdmans, p. 338).

One of the leading exegetical Greek word studies, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (ed. Colin Brown, Paternoster Press, 1976), states: 'In the LXX [Septuagint] hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb sheol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is a land of darkness, in which God is not remembered (Job 10:21f; 26:5; Ps. 6:5; 30:9 [LXX 29:9]; 115:17 [LXX 113:25]; Prov. 1;12; 27:20; Isa. 5:14)' (vol 2, p. 206).

So in the LXX, hades is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, sheol.

Oz

so the greeks didn't believe in their version of hades? the jews didn't translate literally the Hebrew to greek, even if they did, there are language barriers to overcome. a saved greek from the cult of the Ephesus that worshipped Diana would automatically think of hades the god the underworld, the river styx.
does the bible have that? NO that is why I said be deprogramming the greek he would then understand what the jews say. that Is why I don't use greek words.

ie paradise. ok, the jews don't call their idea of the eternal bliss that its gan eden as new eden. I looked that up its a place in the heavens where the Heshem is with his people and the garden of eden is there and also the tree of life.

what is the greek idea of paradise?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise
the biblical view is nothing like those. so the writers of bible had to choose the closest word to that.

that is what I meant. that Is why I go NOT to the lxx but to the Hebrew. Hebrew is a different culture and mindset. greek as well. you have to notice that.

 

[By Grace]

I don't find the term believer in the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16.In do find that Jesus referred to the Law and the prophets. Please answer my question. What is it that the rich man, who was under the law, were to believe that would prevent him from going to hell. Please show from the law, what the rich man was to believe.

Please stop playing games, and answer the questions I have you asked you several times, about a week ago:

Do you understand the connection between "soul sleep" and universalism? I think not, so I shall explain.

While this might not come about in the discussion, the frequently unstated purpose of "soul sleep" is to provide a "second chance" to those who are not saved when they die. The people who promote this "second chance" are usually people who despair at the idea of only one chance to get to heaven, that is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. They reason that while some stubborn people are not initially saved, that having a "second chance" would allow the unrepentant person an opportunity to repent, and thus enter heaven, better late than never.

This sort of doctrine sounds lovey-dovey and "all in love" it is really an assault on the Atonement of Jesus. Essentially it says that the Atonement, done only once at Calvary is insufficient to save some, so there has to be a second chance; hence "soul sleep". Many people believing this also believe that there is no "third chance" at going to heaven. The title of this sort of universalism is "hypothetical universalism".

The other type of universalism states that all of humanity, including Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Osama Ben Laden will also go to heaven. This is really the biggest affront to the Atonement because it essentially says that what Jesus did on the Cross was not necessary for any one to be saved.

Because in both types of universalism, the body is dead, there must be a place for the soul. Therefore, they invented the belief that the soul takes a nap, and will be awake at some future, unknown date. Understand?

Your comparisons of universalism and Buddhism is inaccurate because the Buddhists preach reincarnation, based upon works.
Your comparisons of universalism and Mormonism is close. They do believe in a universal heaven, but they the special people who get married in the Temple will be gods and wives.
Your comparisons of universalism and the RCC is inaccurate because while some are saved in the church, too many depend upon their works, attending masses, etc,
Your comparisons of universalism with the Calvinists and Arminians is inaccurate because while most of the members of each group are saved, they bicker at HOW one is saved.​

 

[OzSpen]

so the greeks didn't believe in their version of hades? the jews didn't translate literally the Hebrew to greek, even if they did, there are language barriers to overcome. a saved greek from the cult of the Ephesus that worshipped Diana would automatically think of hades the god the underworld, the river styx.
does the bible have that? NO that is why I said be deprogramming the greek he would then understand what the jews say. that Is why I don't use greek words.

ie paradise. ok, the jews don't call their idea of the eternal bliss that its gan eden as new eden. I looked that up its a place in the heavens where the Heshem is with his people and the garden of eden is there and also the tree of life.

what is the greek idea of paradise?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise
the biblical view is nothing like those. so the writers of bible had to choose the closest word to that.

that is what I meant. that Is why I go NOT to the lxx but to the Hebrew. Hebrew is a different culture and mindset. greek as well. you have to notice that.

I find this post confusing in its content. What I was simply communicating, contrary to your view, is that the Septuagint (LXX) translators in over 100 examples translated sheol with hades. Thus, Hades was the Greek equivalent of Sheol in the OT.

Concerning the LXX:


Sir Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton (1807-1862) wrote this 'INTRODUCTION. AN HISTORICAL ACCOUNT OF THE SEPTUAGINT VERSION'. He stated that

The earliest writer who gives an account of the Septuagint version is Aristobulus, a Jew who lived at the commencement of the second century B.C. He says that the version of the Law into Greek was completed under the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus, and that Demetrius Phalereus had been employed about it. Now, Demetrius died about the beginning of the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus, and hence it has been reasonably inferred that Aristobulus is a witness that the work of translation had been commenced under Ptolemy Soter.

Different opinions have been formed as to what is intended by Aristobulus when he speaks of the Law: some consider that he refers merely to the Pentateuch, while others extend the signification to the Old Testament Scriptures in general: the former opinion appears to be favoured by the strict meaning of the terms used; the latter by the mode in which the Jews often applied the name of Law to the whole of their sacred writings.

The fact may, however, be regarded as certain, that prior to the year 285 B.C. the Septuagint version had been commenced, and that in the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus, either the books in general or at least an important part of them had been completed.​

Brenton makes this point of the NT writers' use of the Septuagint that has been the subject of much scholarly discussion over the years. Brenton's assessment was:

The Septuagint version having been current for about three centuries before the time when the books of the New Testament were written, it is not surprising that the Apostles should have used it more often than not in making citations from the Old Testament. They used it as an honestly-made version in pretty general use at the time when they wrote. They did not on every occasion give an authoritative translation of each passage de novo, but they used what was already familiar to the ears of converted Hellenists, when it was sufficiently accurate to suit the matter in hand. In fact, they used it as did their contemporary Jewish writers, Philo and Josephus, but not, however, with the blind implicitness of the former.

In consequence of the fact that the New Testament writers used on many occasions the Septuagint version, some have deduced a new argument for its authority, -- a theory which we might have thought to be sufficiently disproved by the defects of the version , which evince that it is merely a human work. But the fact that the New Testament writers used this version on many occasions supplies a new proof in opposition to the idea of its authority, for in not a few places they do not follow it, but they supply a version of their own which rightly represents the Hebrew text, although contradicting the Septuagint.

The use, however, which the writers of the New Testament have made of the Septuagint version must always invest it with a peculiar interest; we thus see what honour God may be pleased to put on an honestly-made version, since we find that inspired writers often used such a version, when it was sufficiently near the original to suit the purpose for which it was cited, instead of rendering the Hebrew text de novo on every occasion.​

So when the NT writers were communicating in koine Greek, it was appropriate that they should quote from the OT in the LXX.

​

 

[By Grace]

the biblical view is nothing like those. so the writers of bible had to choose the closest word to that.

that is what I meant. that Is why I go NOT to the lxx but to the Hebrew. Hebrew is a different culture and mindset. greek as well. you have to notice that.

Do you know why the Septuigint is abbreviated as LXX?

The LXX is the Roman numbering system, and it refers to the 70 Jewish scholars who took the scrolls, written in Hebrew, and translated them into Greek, the common language of the day

abbreviation Lxx, the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew, presumably made for the use of the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the lingua franca throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), was translated near the middle of the 3rd century BC and that the rest of the Old Testament was translated in the 2nd century BC.

<SNIP>

n the 3rd century AD, Origen attempted to clear up copyists' errors that had crept into the text of the Septuagint, which by then varied widely from copy to copy. Other scholars also consulted the Hebrew text in order to make the Septuagint text more accurate. But it was the Septuagint, not the original Hebrew, that was the main basis for the Old Latin, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Georgian, Slavonic, and part of the Arabic translations of the Old Testament. It has never ceased to be the standard version of the Old Testament in the Greek church, and from it Jerome began his translation of the Vulgate Old Testament.

In addition to all the books of the Hebrew canon, the Septuagint under Christian auspices separated the minor prophets and some other books and added the extra books known to Protestants and Jews as apocryphal and to Roman Catholics as deuterocanonical. The Hebrew canon has three divisions: the Torah (Law), the Neviʾim (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings). The Septuagint has four: law, history, poetry, and prophets, with the books of the Apocrypha inserted where appropriate. This division has continued in the Western church in most modern Bible translations, except that in Protestant versions the Apocrypha are either omitted or grouped separately.

The text of the Septuagint is contained in a few early, but not necessarily reliable, manuscripts. The best known of these are the Codex Vaticanus (B) and the Codex Sinaiticus (S), both dating from the 4th century AD, and the Codex Alexandrinus (A) from the 5th century. There are also numerous earlier papyrus fragments and many later manuscripts. The first printed copy of the Septuagint was in the Complutensian Polyglot (1514–22).
from Septuagint. (2008). Encyclopædia Britannica. Deluxe Edition. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica.​

.
No, I am not attempting to be snarky, or a know-it-all. That is why I cited the Britannica as an unbiased secular resource. You and others can learn form the Britannica.

 

[OzSpen]

My answer to your post was simple, the rich man was not there because he did or did not believe the Gospel, as he was under the law of Moses.

That is my answer.

Please help me to understand from your perspective.

What was the rich, who was under the law, supposed to believe in order to escape the fate of being tormented in hell?

That's all I have been asking.

If you don't know what the rich man was supposed to believe, under the law of Moses, then just say so.

JLB

Why didn't you take note of what Obadiah wrote at #119? He told us to quit our bickering. What did you do? You immediately came back with some more bickering.

I will not be discussing this topic with you any further.

Bye.

 

[JLB]

Do you know why the Septuigint is abbreviated as LXX?

The LXX is the Roman numbering system, and it refers to the 70 Jewish scholars who took the scrolls, written in Hebrew, and translated them into Greek, the common language of the day

abbreviation Lxx, the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew, presumably made for the use of the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the lingua franca throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), was translated near the middle of the 3rd century BC and that the rest of the Old Testament was translated in the 2nd century BC.

<SNIP>

n the 3rd century AD, Origen attempted to clear up copyists' errors that had crept into the text of the Septuagint, which by then varied widely from copy to copy. Other scholars also consulted the Hebrew text in order to make the Septuagint text more accurate. But it was the Septuagint, not the original Hebrew, that was the main basis for the Old Latin, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Georgian, Slavonic, and part of the Arabic translations of the Old Testament. It has never ceased to be the standard version of the Old Testament in the Greek church, and from it Jerome began his translation of the Vulgate Old Testament.

In addition to all the books of the Hebrew canon, the Septuagint under Christian auspices separated the minor prophets and some other books and added the extra books known to Protestants and Jews as apocryphal and to Roman Catholics as deuterocanonical. The Hebrew canon has three divisions: the Torah (Law), the Neviʾim (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings). The Septuagint has four: law, history, poetry, and prophets, with the books of the Apocrypha inserted where appropriate. This division has continued in the Western church in most modern Bible translations, except that in Protestant versions the Apocrypha are either omitted or grouped separately.

The text of the Septuagint is contained in a few early, but not necessarily reliable, manuscripts. The best known of these are the Codex Vaticanus (B) and the Codex Sinaiticus (S), both dating from the 4th century AD, and the Codex Alexandrinus (A) from the 5th century. There are also numerous earlier papyrus fragments and many later manuscripts. The first printed copy of the Septuagint was in the Complutensian Polyglot (1514–22).
from Septuagint. (2008). Encyclopædia Britannica. Deluxe Edition. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica.​

.
No, I am not attempting to be snarky, or a know-it-all. That is why I cited the Britannica as an unbiased secular resource. You and others can learn form the Britannica.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)

Paul said it this way -

always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7


Jesus said it this way -

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why didn't you take note of what Obadiah wrote at #119? He told us to quit our bickering. What did you do? You immediately came back with some more bickering.

I will not be discussing this topic with you any further.

Bye.

Asking a question is not bickering.


JLB

 

[By Grace]

(Removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah)

Paul said it this way -
always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

Why are you attempting to condemn me by taking some Scripture utterly out of its context, and attempting to make it say something it does not?

Jesus said it this way -
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40 JLB

Why are you attempting to condemn me by taking some Scripture utterly out of its context, and attempting to make it say something it does not? It is obvious that you choose to bicker and condemn those not agreeing 100% with you instead of having a rational discussion.

(Edited, ToS 2.8. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

(Removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah)


Why are you attempting to condemn me by taking some Scripture utterly out of its context, and attempting to make it say something it does not?




Why are you attempting to condemn me by taking some Scripture utterly out of its context, and attempting to make it say something it does not? It is obvious that you choose to bicker and condemn those not agreeing 100% with you instead of having a rational discussion.

(Edited, ToS 2.8. Obadiah)

Of course I am not condemning you.

The Lord taught us in John the importance of relationship with Him.

Man lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Abraham learned from God Himself, His laws and Commandments, by walking before Him.

Enoch walked with God in relationship with Him.

Me personally, I don't feel I need a degree in the study of the Greek language to have a relationship with God, and be led by His Spirit.



JLB

 

[By Grace]

Me personally, I don't feel I need a degree in the study of the Greek language to have a relationship with God, and be led by His Spirit. JLB

Whoever said THAT?

Just as Paul had the equivalent of a PhD, it is not wrong to believe God wants his Shepherds to be educated. Therefore if a pastor wants to be able to lead the sheep of God, it is important to study to show himself approved. So be it a special denominational course of study, a Bachelors, Masters of Divinity, MA. Doctorate of Ministry or PhD there are no groups (except perhaps the "snake handlers") which does not require more advanced education of one sort or another.

It may be that you are reading too much into what others post.

 

[Obadiah]

This thread lately is focusing more in insults., judgements, and insinuations rather than on soul sleep. Since the soul sleep theory has for the most part been replaced by this, this thread has run it's course and is closed.