SOUL SLEEP - TRUE/FALSE

[OzSpen]

Brother,

If you can show me from the law of Moses what the rich man was commanded to believe in order to avoid the fires of hell, then you have a point.

If you can't show from the law what the rich man was to believe, then why would you claim he is an unbeliever?

Then you turn around and accuse me of posting a red herring fallacy.

JLB

You continue to refuse to answer the issues I raised at #95. When you don't deal with the content of my post and choose your own subject, you commit a red herring logical fallacy. Take a read of what that means HERE. Don't you understand what how you are using a red herring logical fallacy?

Please answer what I asked in #95 and then we might be able to progress. If you don't, and continue to give red herring logical fallacies, you have left me with no other choice but to not engage further with you in conversation.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

 

[JLB]

You continue to refuse to answer the issues I raised at #95. When you don't deal with the content of my post and choose your own subject, you commit a red herring logical fallacy. Take a read of what that means HERE. Don't you understand what how you are using a red herring logical fallacy?

Please answer what I asked in #95 and then we might be able to progress. If you don't, and continue to give red herring logical fallacies, you have left me with no other choice but to not engage further with you in conversation.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

You continue to ignore the simple question that I asked about what the rich man was guilty of not believing.


Please stop post red herring fallacies about things that do not exist in scripture.


JLB

 

[follower]

If you were so good in English, then why did you fail to capitalize it TWICE?? 2
Yes, I am retired, and yes, my undergrad degree was in teaching English.

and no, you are not e.e.cummings so use capital letters when required, or else do not tell others that we English teachers taught you improper capitalization.
2

english teachers , (can't go there)... sorry.... you made too many presumptions in this post. .

hebrew is better. (than english).

 

[OzSpen]

You continue to ignore the simple question that I asked about what the rich man was guilty of not believing.

Please stop post red herring fallacies about things that do not exist in scripture.

JLB

Please answer #95. If you do this, I then won't have to label what you do as giving me a red herring fallacy.

 

[follower]

the red herring fallacies are on sale 50% off on isle 5. half-way down on the left.....

 

[JLB]

Please answer #95. If you do this, I then won't have to label what you do as giving me a red herring fallacy.

The answer to post 95.

The rich man was not guilty of of unbelief.

Thats my answer.

Please show from the law, what the rich man was to believe.


JLB

 

[By Grace]

Show me from scripture from the law, that those under the law had to believe, rather than do all the law. JLB

JLB said: ↑
<SNIP>
I read his post, and it was clear, when I read his post that he doesn't believe in soul sleep. So your post isn't anymore clear than his. If you go back and read our post's, you will see why I responded this way. Thanks for your input.
JLB

If his post was clear that he does NOT believe in "soul sleep", (I also do not believe in it) then what is the point you are attempting to make?

Please connect the dots for me and please do not tell me to "go back to your posts". I have read them, and I am confused about what you are attempting to say, therefore going back would be useless for me. OK?

JLB,
<SNIP>
Please show me where in Scripture that there is teaching that believers after death go to a place of torment, anguish or in the flame?

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV tells us that unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire. That is not where believers are destined.

Rather than beat a dead horse, I will point out the obvious, which you do not seem to be able to see, or else do not want to answer, for one reason or another. Two different posters (OzSpen and By Grace) are simply asking for you to give a summary of what you believe about soul sleep, and you can see that by looking at the bold green questions above.

No one is badgering you to give an answer, but you need to know that answering a question with more and more irrelevant questions is not a way to discuss and seek understanding, here or anywhere. Please look at this post as a way to move the discussion forward, and not an attempt to be a net nanny. Thank you for your consideration of our requests.

 

[JLB]

Rather than beat a dead horse, I will point out the obvious, which you do not seem to be able to see, or else do not want to answer, for one reason or another. Two different posters (OzSpen and By Grace) are simply asking for you to give a summary of what you believe about soul sleep, and you can see that by looking at the bold green questions above.

No one is badgering you to give an answer, but you need to know that answering a question with more and more irrelevant questions is not a way to discuss and seek understanding, here or anywhere. Please look at this post as a way to move the discussion forward, and not an attempt to be a net nanny. Thank you for your consideration of our requests.

I don't find the term believer in the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16.

In do find that Jesus referred to the Law and the prophets.

Please answer my question.

What is it that the rich man, who was under the law, were to believe that would prevent him from going to hell.


Please show from the law, what the rich man was to believe.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't find the term believer in the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16.

In do find that Jesus referred to the Law and the prophets.

Please answer my question.

What is it that the rich man, who was under the law, were to believe that would prevent him from going to hell.

Please show from the law, what the rich man was to believe.

You continue to avoid what I asked you at #95. Why?

 

[OzSpen]

the red herring fallacies are on sale 50% off on isle 5. half-way down on the left.....

Scoffing gets nowhere with me.

 

[jasonc]

sheol, I wish some would actually read up on what that is and then look at luke 16 and see what in the full chapter's context jesus is saying to the Pharisees. im a firm believer in gehenna/lake of fire but that chapter is about the judgement of failing to do the law as jesus said it was about. to help the poor, is a big part of that. offerings in the temple of both messianic judiasm and judiasm is labeled as tzadik. that is simply ritghtoues acts.

it can also be said the in the parable the rich man knowing that god sent him there and implies the mentioning of determony via moses is aware of the fact that he was damned for unbelief. the torah was very much about faith. notice what Hebrews 13 said.

 

[OzSpen]

Rather than beat a dead horse, I will point out the obvious, which you do not seem to be able to see, or else do not want to answer, for one reason or another. Two different posters (OzSpen and By Grace) are simply asking for you to give a summary of what you believe about soul sleep, and you can see that by looking at the bold green questions above.

No one is badgering you to give an answer, but you need to know that answering a question with more and more irrelevant questions is not a way to discuss and seek understanding, here or anywhere. Please look at this post as a way to move the discussion forward, and not an attempt to be a net nanny. Thank you for your consideration of our requests.

At #81, JLB asked: 'where does the word unbeliever and believer occur in this scripture?' (the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 ESV). At #95, I asked some questions about this view. This person has refused to answer those questions. That has brought us to this stalemate.

Unless it is resolved soon by JLB (with a response to the content of #95), I'll be moving on and not responding to that poster on this topic.

 

[OzSpen]

sheol, I wish some would actually read up on what that is and then look at luke 16 and see what in the full chapter's context jesus is saying to the Pharisees. im a firm believer in gehenna/lake of fire but that chapter is about the judgement of failing to do the law as jesus said it was about. to help the poor, is a big part of that. offerings in the temple of both messianic judiasm and judiasm is labeled as tzadik. that is simply ritghtoues acts.

it can also be said the in the parable the rich man knowing that god sent him there and implies the mentioning of determony via moses is aware of the fact that he was damned for unbelief. the torah was very much about faith. notice what Hebrews 13 said.

Jason,

Hades is the Septuagint's Greek translation of Sheol and Hades is carried into the NT in Scriptures dealing with the time prior to the death of Christ.

I have done my share of investigation into the meaning of Sheol/Hades.

It should not surprise us that when the OT prophets stated many things about Sheol – the place to which people departed at death – they did not expound in depth on it. That was given to the NT to explain further. Sadly, the KJV translates Sheol as “hell” (31 times); “grave” (31 times) and “pit” (3 times). Because of this kind of inconsistency, this has given opportunity to various groups (JWs, Armstrongism, SDAs, etc.) to teach, wrongly, that Sheol means the grave.

However, the following examples of the use of Sheol use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:

1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.
2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).
3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.
4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death, according to the OT. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.
5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).
6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death, a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Vol 4 on Job, p. 52).
7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.
8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccles 9:10, etc.)
9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:

a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.​

From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).

Not once does Sheol in the OT mean non-existence or annihilation.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

I know but well I am have laid my kin(jews) to rest. they don't fear death like you think. they do believe in a resurrection. the mourners kaddish is where I had to really look up what sheol was. I read up what hades is since well in the church age the greeks would have to be deprogrammed of their pagan idea of the afterlife. hades is a different creature then sheol.

the jews see death as a mitzvah.

 

[OzSpen]

I know but well I am have laid my kin(jews) to rest. they don't fear death like you think. they do believe in a resurrection. the mourners kaddish is where I had to really look up what sheol was. I read up what hades is since well in the church age the greeks would have to be deprogrammed of their pagan idea of the afterlife. hades is a different creature then sheol.

the jews see death as a mitzvah.

Jason,

You say that 'hades is a different creature then (sic) sheol'. Those who know Hebrew and Greek disagree with you.

According to OT commentators Keil & Delitzsch, 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death' (Commentary on the Old Testament, vol 1. Eerdmans, p. 338).

One of the leading exegetical Greek word studies, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (ed. Colin Brown, Paternoster Press, 1976), states: 'In the LXX [Septuagint] hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb sheol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is a land of darkness, in which God is not remembered (Job 10:21f; 26:5; Ps. 6:5; 30:9 [LXX 29:9]; 115:17 [LXX 113:25]; Prov. 1;12; 27:20; Isa. 5:14)' (vol 2, p. 206).

So in the LXX, hades is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, sheol.

Oz

 

[JLB]

At #81, JLB asked: 'where does the word unbeliever and believer occur in this scripture?' (the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 ESV). At #95, I asked some questions about this view. This person has refused to answer those questions. That has brought us to this stalemate.

Unless it is resolved soon by JLB (with a response to the content of #95), I'll be moving on and not responding to that poster on this topic.

Please read post 106 where I answered your question.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You continue to avoid what I asked you at #95. Why?

Please read post 106, where I answered your question.


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Please read post 106 where I answered your question.

JLB

That does not answer what I asked in post #95. In 106 you did not address what I wrote here in #95. I ask you again:

So you want to believe that the rich man in the parable (story) of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 ESV) was not an unbeliever.

Lk 16:22-23 ESV states that after death the rich man was 'in Hades, being in torment' and Lk 16:28 ESV, 'For I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment'. Lk 16:24 ESV states of the rich man after death, 'I am in anguish in this flame'.

Please show me where in Scripture that there is teaching that believers after death go to a place of torment, anguish or in the flame?

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV tells us that unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire. That is not where believers are destined.​

If you don't want to answer these specifics, please tell me and I'll move on.

 

[Obadiah]

Ok, the pages of post after post bickering over who is or isn't answering questions is taking this thread nowhere. If someone refused to answer a question let's just leave it alone from here on and talk about the topic instead of attacking each other. If that's not possible,we can end this thread altogether if that's what you guys prefer.

 

[JLB]

That does not answer what I asked in post #95. In 106 you did not address what I wrote here in #95. I ask you again:

So you want to believe that the rich man in the parable (story) of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 ESV) was not an unbeliever.

Lk 16:22-23 ESV states that after death the rich man was 'in Hades, being in torment' and Lk 16:28 ESV, 'For I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment'. Lk 16:24 ESV states of the rich man after death, 'I am in anguish in this flame'.

Please show me where in Scripture that there is teaching that believers after death go to a place of torment, anguish or in the flame?

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV tells us that unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire. That is not where believers are destined.​

If you don't want to answer these specifics, please tell me and I'll move on.

My answer to your post was simple, the rich man was not there because he did or did not believe the Gospel, as he was under the law of Moses.

That is my answer.

Please help me to understand from your perspective.


What was the rich, who was under the law, supposed to believe in order to escape the fate of being tormented in hell?


That's all I have been asking.


If you don't know what the rich man was supposed to believe, under the law of Moses, then just say so.


JLB