Sovereignty and a God that can be Moved

[Drew]

The following is a quote from Dallas Willard's book: "The Divine Conspiracy". I believe that it speaks to a simplistic and exaggerated view of God's sovereignty that has wide acceptance in evangelical circles. I think that Willard wisely recognizes that it is an impoverished view of "greatness" that leads us to think that God needs to control every event in the Universe in order to achieve his purposes.

It is not inherently "greater" to be inflexible. This is an unfortunate human idea of greatness, derived from behaviour patterns all too common in a fallen world. It turns God into a cosmic stuffed shirt. This unfortunate idea is reinforced from "the highest intellectual sources" by classical ideas of "perfection," which stressed the necessity of absolute inalterability in God. But in a domain of persons, such as the Kingdom Among Us, it is far greater to be flexible and yet able to achieve the good goals one has set. And that is an essential part of the Divine Personality shown in the Bible and incarnated in the person of Jesus and presented in his message. So far from fitting the classical pattern of God as "the Unmoved Mover", the God shown in the historical record is "the Most Moved Mover". This is the one who lives with us and whom we approach from within the community of prayerful love.

 

[Vic C.]

My simplistic view on this is; It's God's ball and HE can play with it anyway HE chooses. :-D

 

[Drew]

My simplistic view on this is; It's God's ball and HE can play with it anyway HE chooses. :-D

Well obviously God can do whatever He chooses. Willard is telling us his view that the Scriptures testify that God can be, and is, moved by human petition.

 

[Solo]

God can and is moved by human petition, and He knows the outcome prior to the petition.

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote:God can and is moved by human petition, and He knows the outcome prior to the petition.

That makes as much logical sense as saying, “God changes the outcome because of our petitions but the outcome was unchangeable whether we asked or not.†:roll:

 

[Imagican]

I believe the POINT of the opening of this thread is a 'bit deeper' than what is being commented on.

Many would have God placed upon an UNAPPROACHABLE pedistal. Forsaking ALL that has been offered to the contrary.

God IS our Father. He created us out of LOVE. It was MAN'S choice to alienate himself from God. Yet God has BEEN THERE FOR US ever since. Waiting for the day that we would see a NEED to return His love.

He is NOT unapproachable. He is there for us EVERY SECOND of EVERY DAY. Waiting and wishing that we would SEE this and attempt to develope a relationship WITH Him.

What WILL happen in LONG run WILL happen. But that doesn't mean that God cannot alter the 'time-line' of what He KNOWS will eventually come to be. We ARE capable of 'surprising God' just as there have been those of the past that have done so. Just like ANY 'parent', we are ALWAYS surprised when our children show MATURITY beyond what we 'expect' of them.

MEC

 

[unred typo]

Imagican wrote:He is NOT unapproachable. He is there for us EVERY SECOND of EVERY DAY. Waiting and wishing that we would SEE this and attempt to develope a relationship WITH Him.

What WILL happen in LONG run WILL happen. But that doesn't mean that God cannot alter the 'time-line' of what He KNOWS will eventually come to be. We ARE capable of 'surprising God' just as there have been those of the past that have done so. Just like ANY 'parent', we are ALWAYS surprised when our children show MATURITY beyond what we 'expect' of them.


I didn’t read the book but I agree with what both you and Drew have written here. Seems to me that those who like to believe they live their lives in a role they imagine is completely controlled and orchestrated by God have such a mind-numbing faith in a such an impotent god it borders on some kind of neurosis. Fear of the unknown?

 

[mutzrein]

Yes, I too believe that God reponds to the adoration and requests of his children. But we are not all his children, are we.

 

[unred typo]

Mutzrein wrote:Yes, I too believe that God reponds to the adoration and requests of his children. But we are not all his children, are we.

Don't you believe we can all be God’s children? You become a child of the one you choose to follow. If you choose good, you are God’s. If you choose evil, you belong to Satan’s clan. If you repent of the evil, you are forgiven and you can become God’s child. You can forsake the good ways, and become a child of evil. The choice is always yours to make. Please understand I’m not talking about committing an occasional sin and God slams you into hail, but a rejection of the good way of Christ as a lifestyle.

God is always responsive to any sincere effort to turn to him and away from sin, unless he has already begun judgment. (even then, he has been known to change his mind and extend mercy.)

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein wrote:Yes, I too believe that God reponds to the adoration and requests of his children. But we are not all his children, are we.

Don't you believe we can all be God’s children?

No, not at all.

You become a child of the one you choose to follow. If you choose good, you are God’s. If you choose evil, you belong to Satan’s clan. If you repent of the evil, you are forgiven and you can become God’s child.You can forsake the good ways, and become a child of evil. The choice is always yours to make. Please understand I’m not talking about committing an occasional sin and God slams you into hail, but a rejection of the good way of Christ as a lifestyle.

God chooses his children. As scripture says “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.â€Â

God is always responsive to any sincere effort to turn to him and away from sin, unless he has already begun judgment. (even then, he has been known to change his mind and extend mercy.)

To those who are his children, God is full of mercy. I’m not talking about the others.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

This relates to God’s children – the Hebrews - & how can you ‘return’ to the Lord if you are not already His?

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

This relates to God’s children. As the former part of this scripture says, “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists i all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.â€Â

 

[lovely]

I have never read Mr. Willard, but I believe the quoted portion contradicts Scripture if it is put forth in the context that it truly opposes God's unchanging essence.

God is perfect, He can neither improve, nor get worse.
He is timeless, and has no point of change in time.
His promises do not change, as those of men, He remains faithful.
His Will does not change, and He accomplishes all His holy will, by the prayers of His children, and the willful sin of His enemy.

It seems simple to me to accept the God of Scripture in His unchanging perfection, and greatness, by faith.

I do not understand, or agree with, Mr. Willard's preference to "change" God by denying His Word in an attempt to make Him more comprehendable to man , or somehow reconciling man's prayers with God's Sovereignty. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[unred typo]

Mutz wrote:God chooses his children. As scripture says “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.â€Â
To those who are his children, God is full of mercy. I’m not talking about the others.

Awww, Mutz. The Bible says that it’s God’s will that those that obey Christ and love one another are conformed into the image of sons.
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Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Mutz wrote:This relates to God’s children – the Hebrews - & how can you ‘return’ to the Lord if you are not already His?

I should have included the next chapter, too, especially this:
56:6-7Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
----------------------------------------------------


Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Mutz wrote:This relates to God’s children. As the former part of this scripture says, “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.â€Â

I don’t think so, Mutz. Read the verses immediately previous :
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them…….For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:I have never read Mr. Willard, but I believe the quoted portion contradicts Scripture if it is put forth in the context that it truly opposes God's unchanging essence.
God is perfect, He can neither improve, nor get worse.
He is timeless, and has no point of change in time.
His promises do not change, as those of men, He remains faithful.
His Will does not change, and He accomplishes all His holy will, by the prayers of His children, and the willful sin of His enemy.
It seems simple to me to accept the God of Scripture in His unchanging perfection, and greatness, by faith.
I do not understand, or agree with, Mr. Willard's preference to "change" God by denying His Word in an attempt to make Him more comprehendable to man , or somehow reconciling man's prayers with God's Sovereignty. The Lord bless all of you.

When you say Mr. Willard is “denying His Word,†do you have scripture to back that up?

There are ways that God never changes. God is good. God is love. God cannot lie. God does not age. His will is to make everything he has promised come to pass, and that goal doesn’t change although the methods to accomplish it may change constantly. There are other ways that he does change. When God emptied himself to become a man, obedient even unto death, that was an amazing change. So it seems that you allow God to change in some things but not in ways that don‘t conform to your view.

Would you mind finding those verses so that we can examine them with you and suggest other ways of interpreting them logically without denying God’s Word? Do you think it would be wrong or frightening to find out that God doesn’t have to know the future in order to bring all of his plans to pass and fulfill all his promises? It was for me at first. Like when you let go of the bike seat so your son can pedal off without training wheels.

Maybe God has better balance than you ever imagined. I bet you can trust him to do above and beyond all that you can ask or think.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz wrote:God chooses his children. As scripture says “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.â€Â
To those who are his children, God is full of mercy. I’m not talking about the others.

Awww, Mutz. The Bible says that it’s God’s will that those that obey Christ and love one another are conformed into the image of sons.

Yes I’ve read something like that somewhere – can you quote me the reference please.

-------------------------------------------------


Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Mutz wrote:This relates to God’s children – the Hebrews - & how can you ‘return’ to the Lord if you are not already His?

I should have included the next chapter, too, especially this:
56:6-7Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
[quote:da918]In that case then you would know that this is speaking of the first covenant that God gave to his people which was based on the ‘written code’. Now we know that under this covenant there was opportunity for those who were outside of the law to embrace it and to become as the Jews, in effect children by adoption.

----------------------------------------------------


Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Mutz wrote:This relates to God’s children. As the former part of this scripture says, “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.â€Â

I don’t think so, Mutz. Read the verses immediately previous :
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them…….For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Yes correct – it is contrasting the behaviour of those who are already God’s children with those who are not. For here we see those who have become children of God – born of God – under the new covenant, through Christ. The letter is addressed to these, and they are being told that since they were once in darkness, but now children of light, they need to walk not in the former ways of darkness (as the children of disobedience do – and upon whom the wrath of God comes) but as children of light. Remember, this is not addressed to all of mankind but to those who are already children of God.

Perhaps you would like to explain how we can choose to be born of God outside of the realm of human decision - which is what scripture plainly states.

[/quote:da918]

 

[Drew]

His Will does not change, and He accomplishes all His holy will, by the prayers of His children....

I do not understand, or agree with, Mr. Willard's preference to "change" God by denying His Word...

Hi Lovely,

Obviously I could post a whole pile of Scriptures that show God changing his mind (2 Kings 20 is an example that you are no doubt familar with). I am not sure how such texts are reconciled with your position on this topic. All the attempts that I have seen have involved denying the "plain reading" of this text which clearly shows that God "changed his mind".

Now I want to go on record that I do not hold to a position that all Scripture should be interpreted according to its "plain literal meaning". So I am not critiquing anyone who tries to preserve the "unmoveable God position" by various arguments to the effet that 2 Kings 20 does not mean what its plain reading clearly states - which is that God can indeed be moved by human petition.

My point is that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" - As has been clearly shown in numerous debates (mostly involving JM and myself), the same kind of argument can be used against the "Calvinist- God-cannot-be-moved" position".

One cannot play the game two ways - denying the "literal" meaning of texts like 2 Kings 20 on the one hand, and yet expecting that we take a strictly literal reading of those texts that support an unmoveable God.

I am not saying that you (lovely) are doing this - I am just making a general observation.

 

[Drew]

I admit that I am quite mystified by the view that God cannot be moved by human petition. Such a stance would seem to drain the relationship between God and man of much of its content. I simply do not see how prayers can be "real", how they can have any emotional content or passion, unless it is believed that God can be moved.

This is one of the problems that I see with what I will call the "strong-Calvinist" view of sovereignty - that all events have been pre-scripted from the dawn of time. It might seem to be in accord with some scriptures, and it may even have a clean "technical" appeal. But it seems utterly inconsistent with any way that we can conceive of a "father-child" relationship existing between us and God.

God has to be "moveable" otherwise we cannot really "see Him" as a Father figure (as the scriptures tell us we should). "Being moved" by the child's petition is one of the "things that fathers do".

A "strong-Calvinist" view of God's sovereignty seems to take all the "reality" out of any kind of real relationship between God and men. I hold it to be self-evident that no relationship, of any kind sensible to us, can exist between man and a God who is utterly inflexible.

Such flexibility is at the heart of the very idea of "relationship". Can we even conceive of a "relationship" existing where one of the 2 participants cannot be influenced by the other? I submit that the answer is no.

 

[unred typo]

OK, Mutz, you asked for scripture. This is gonna take us off the subject, no, wait… this is the OP topic…( sovereignty and a God that can be moved ) :-D

This chapter has been so warped into man’s theories, it may be impossible to untangle anyone’s thinking but let’s have a go at it. :wink:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict sinners of their ungodly deeds, right? Those who listen to the Spirit and obey, are those “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.â€Â


Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

These are the people who the Spirit spoke to, who actually listened and obeyed, who love God. (what’s not to love? To know him is to love him) They are the ones who God calls unto himself, the ‘obeyers.’ By obeying, they set themselves apart from those who refuse to obey. (apart from those who don’t obey, both professing Christians and non-professors. ) The dividing line is the obedience, not the profession. These are known by God as obedient to the Spirit.


29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who are foreknown? When are they foreknown? Those who obey have been set apart (from the disobedient) by their willingness to obey. These are predestinated to be Sons of God, if they continue in obedience. This continuance in obedience was taken for granted as a understood requirement then but now it must be stated because of all the ‘free grace‘ teaching around.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

First, we have those who obey the Spirit who are as a group (the obeyers, the servants of God who do his bidding) predestinated (in the beginning when God formed his plan to save mankind) to become born again, adopted children, then, full grown sons of God, depending on their level of understanding in love, faith and sacrifice. It’s not always an immediate, overnight experience. It’s not according to pre chosen individuals, but a pre chosen group… those who obey. This is God’s will, that those who obey are destined to become adopted as his children. Not all who obey continue in obedience but forsake the way and never return, while others come back and are received. The two groups are clearly; the children of disobedience and the children who obey the light. We become children of disobedience by disobedience. We become children of light by following the light. Do you want to make it more exclusive than that? Whatever for?


You say, “Perhaps you would like to explain how we can choose to be born of God outside of the realm of human decision - which is what scripture plainly states.â€Â

I hope I have already shown that but jic, I’ll restate it in other terms. We do not choose to ‘accept Christ and be born again’, we must choose to turn from our sin and choose to obey him. As we resolve in our hearts to follow him, whether we give our whole hearts or have some areas we are holding back, God then by his Spirit chooses those who are ready to become born again. In our physical birth, this takes about nine months. Only God knows when we are ready and viable spiritually. The more we obey and follow the light, the more we grow into the image of Christ. Check this out:

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

And back to the OP: God does not choose individuals in eternity past, write all their moves into his script and sit back and watch it unfold before him like the divine couch potato. His plan was simply that those who choose to obey would be given every chance at every opportunity available to continue and become his (born again eternally) child. It was his decision to predestine those who obey his Son to be justified and glorified as his adopted children.

 

[Imagican]

How about Abraham and God's telling Him His purpose towards two cities? How about Abraham and his 'first' son? How about Abraham and his 'second' son? Or the Hebrews that He threatened to destroy but was convinced 'otherwise' by Moses?

There are tons of examples of God being 'influenced' by His children. Altering Hiw will to 'suit' them.

And how about Christ Himself. A woman came to Him asking for healing. At first He stated that He had NOT come to offer His gift to the 'dogs', but to His PEOPLE. Through faith and perseverance, she was able to convinve Him that ALL that were faithful were deserving of 'the gift'.

Many MANY examples exist in the Word that SHOW without DOUBT that God DOES listen to His faithful and DOES, at times, alter His will to aide those that He LOVES. He could NOT be a 'just' God or a God of Love WITHOUT this attribute.

And who is to say that God is INCAPABLE of learning? Are WE not 'created' in HIS IMAGE? And do you REALLY believe that God has spent an ETERNITY of existence WITHOUT learning ANYTHING? See, this is what inspired this thread, I'm sure. That there are those that place God in an un-aproachable position. That is NOT what He wishes for us. He wishes that we BECOME EXACTLY what we were created for. To BE His children and Him BE our Father. NOT simply to worship Him as some 'super being', but worshiping Him by offering OUR LOVE. Developing a relationship with Him whereby He is able to guide us and HELP us 'become' that which we were given the capacity TO BECOME. Love folks. If one does NOT learn to understand God through LOVE, then they are UNABLE to understand the 'true' God at all.

 

[mutzrein]

unred typo - I'm pushed for time at the mo and may not get back to this for a few days. Probably after the weekend as I am heading out of town tomorrow. The Lord bless you.

 

[undertow]

A "strong-Calvinist" view of God's sovereignty seems to take all the "reality" out of any kind of real relationship between God and men.

Lets suppose that we have total control over our wife/husband. Every thought they experience we have put into their head. How they think, how they feel about us, how they react, all of it controlled. All of their actions are determined by us as if they were a puppet. Sure, it does sound good in a way I guess, but does it sound like a relationship? It doesn't seem to me that it does, because there only seems to be really 1 person involved. So if a Calvinist God has total control over creation, is there any genuine personal relationship with humanity?