U
undertow
Guest
Doesn't look like compatibilism does it? This looks like God isn't getting what he wants because of man's libertarian free will.
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Sovereignty and a God that can be Moved
- Thread starter Drew
- Start date
Doesn't look like compatibilism does it? This looks like God isn't getting what he wants because of man's libertarian free will.
U
undertow
Guest
JM said:
I am sure you will not let that change the great love you show them.
U
undertow
Guest
vic said:
It means that a person can choose to do x, or choose to do y, etc. etc..
Whatever you have been doing today Vic, if you have libertarian free will then you could have done other things instead. If determinism is true, then you were always going to do those things and it couldn't have been otherwise.
Drew
Member
I do not understand this at all.Dave... said:
1. If an action event "E" has been determined at the foundation of the world, then E cannot be, even in part, determined by a free will act of a person - there were no people around at the foundation of the world.
2. Since, by the above statement, all action events are determined at the foundation of the world, then no action event is determined by the free will act of a person.
3. Any given person's actions (all of them) are therefore determined, at the beginning of time, by some agent other than the person.
4. How is such a person not a robot?
U
unred typo
Guest
Ok, Dave… since you went to all the work of gathering these verses to prove your view, I don’t mind taking the time to examine them, even though I don‘t have any to spare.
The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.
Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )
Show me spiritual death, because my Bible doesn’t call it that. Just plain ‘death.’ I think that is the condition of being separated from the source of life. When Adam sinned, he was separated from the tree of life. When Jesus died he took our sin so when we are born, we have no sin to our account (of such is the kingdom of heaven) but when we do sin, we are blotted out of the book of life. When we confess and forsake our sin, we are reconnected to the source of life, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.
If we forgive as we have been forgiven, living in love for one another, the blood continues to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He that has the Son has life, he that does not have the Son, has not life. If the Spirit that raised Christ dwells in your mortal body, just as he raised up Christ, he will raise you to eternal life. Either a person is dwelling in love and has life, or he is living in sin and abiding in death.
Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.
Genesis 6:6, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.
All of these describe those who have chosen to turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to the truth because they have chosen to do evil deeds and don‘t want to be reproved. We can all be like that sometimes, as Eph 5:8 states, they were sometimes darkness. Yes, we have evil imaginations from our youth. I don’t know about you, but I personally make the choice to carry out those evil thoughts or to resist them. Mostly, I resist them but sometimes, I mess up and have to repent. It’s all about choices, Dave….
Bondage to sin and Satan
John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.
These are all about those who chose to be in bondage to Satan by choosing the pleasures of sin for a season. Choose to lie, you become a child of Satan, father of lies. Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin because you are the servant of whom you choose to obey.
Ephesians 2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
When does he quicken us? When our hearts are ready to repent and follow him and he decides to adopt us. When we ‘obey from the hearts the form of doctrine delivered unto us’ from Christ Jesus through the Spirit written on our hearts.
A universal bondage
2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, James 3:2, James 3:8, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.
I compared 2 Chronicles 6:36 to 1 Kings 8:46), and neither support a universal bondage. Job 15:14-16 is a quote from Eliphaz the Temanite who God reproves for speaking falsely to Job. (Not someone I would choose to quote to back up any argument. You might want to delete this one from your files…)
Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalm 130 and 143 only say that IF God didn’t forgive iniquities, none would stand. IOW, all have sinned, not all are in bondage to sin. Proverbs says that we can’t cleanse our own hearts. (But God does forgive and wash us in the blood when we simply repent.) Ecclesiastes 7:29 even says that God has made men upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophesy that also says all have sinned but that he will (has) put all our iniquity on him. Isaiah 64:5-6 compares those that choose righteousness with those who chose to sin.
Psalm 14, verses 1-3 compare the atheistic fool with those who are his people and Romans 3:9-12 quotes this passage to show that anyone can be workers of iniquity, not just Gentiles and not just Jews.
James is speaking to Christians, not those living in bondage to sin and Satan. He warns them against letting the mouth run off spreading fires of hell. 1 John is also written to Christians. Please explain how any of these verses show universal bondage. I’m beginning to think this is just a search list of verses to make an impressive list for backing up a weak argument.
Inability to change
Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians, 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.
Job’s quote is taken out of his speech asking that God show him his sin, so that he can repent of the sins of his youth. IOW, he has changed and is willing to change if God will show him his sin but he admits that he can‘t erase his former sins. When God shows him his sin, he does change.
Jeremiah is a quote about one of Israel’s backsliding times. God has in effect given up on these who have grown accustomed to do evil, therefore he is going to punish them. This is not a universal inability to change. This is a statement warning that those who continually choose evil eventually cannot change and at this point, God will judge.
Matthew 7 is about false prophets, not all mankind. Matthew 12:33 is saying the opposite of ‘inability to change’ since by implication says to make your tree good and your fruit good, IOW, change your heart and the fruit that comes from it will be good.
John 6 refers to a specific time frame while Jesus was on earth, not all human experience. This is in reference to those who do truth coming to the light, and those doing evil, hating the light.
Romans 11 must be a wrong reference because it’s not even close to backing up your claim of ‘inability to change’. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is your best bet but is only saying that the man who is carnally minded doesn‘t pay attention to spiritual things or understand them, not that he can‘t change to become spiritually minded.
1 Corinthians 4:7 is about spiritual gifts causing some to be puffed up, and Paul is admonishing them to change and be humble, not saying they can‘t change. 2 Corinthians 3:5 says our sufficiency is of God to make us able ministers of the word. This has nothing to do with man’s ‘inability to change’. Where did you get this list, Dave…..? I’d get a refund if I were you. There’s more to your list but I’ve had enough for right now. So far, you got zip.
:roll:
The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.
Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )
Show me spiritual death, because my Bible doesn’t call it that. Just plain ‘death.’ I think that is the condition of being separated from the source of life. When Adam sinned, he was separated from the tree of life. When Jesus died he took our sin so when we are born, we have no sin to our account (of such is the kingdom of heaven) but when we do sin, we are blotted out of the book of life. When we confess and forsake our sin, we are reconnected to the source of life, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.
If we forgive as we have been forgiven, living in love for one another, the blood continues to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He that has the Son has life, he that does not have the Son, has not life. If the Spirit that raised Christ dwells in your mortal body, just as he raised up Christ, he will raise you to eternal life. Either a person is dwelling in love and has life, or he is living in sin and abiding in death.
Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.
Genesis 6:6, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.
All of these describe those who have chosen to turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to the truth because they have chosen to do evil deeds and don‘t want to be reproved. We can all be like that sometimes, as Eph 5:8 states, they were sometimes darkness. Yes, we have evil imaginations from our youth. I don’t know about you, but I personally make the choice to carry out those evil thoughts or to resist them. Mostly, I resist them but sometimes, I mess up and have to repent. It’s all about choices, Dave….
Bondage to sin and Satan
John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.
These are all about those who chose to be in bondage to Satan by choosing the pleasures of sin for a season. Choose to lie, you become a child of Satan, father of lies. Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin because you are the servant of whom you choose to obey.
Ephesians 2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
When does he quicken us? When our hearts are ready to repent and follow him and he decides to adopt us. When we ‘obey from the hearts the form of doctrine delivered unto us’ from Christ Jesus through the Spirit written on our hearts.
A universal bondage
2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, James 3:2, James 3:8, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.
I compared 2 Chronicles 6:36 to 1 Kings 8:46), and neither support a universal bondage. Job 15:14-16 is a quote from Eliphaz the Temanite who God reproves for speaking falsely to Job. (Not someone I would choose to quote to back up any argument. You might want to delete this one from your files…)
Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalm 130 and 143 only say that IF God didn’t forgive iniquities, none would stand. IOW, all have sinned, not all are in bondage to sin. Proverbs says that we can’t cleanse our own hearts. (But God does forgive and wash us in the blood when we simply repent.) Ecclesiastes 7:29 even says that God has made men upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophesy that also says all have sinned but that he will (has) put all our iniquity on him. Isaiah 64:5-6 compares those that choose righteousness with those who chose to sin.
Psalm 14, verses 1-3 compare the atheistic fool with those who are his people and Romans 3:9-12 quotes this passage to show that anyone can be workers of iniquity, not just Gentiles and not just Jews.
James is speaking to Christians, not those living in bondage to sin and Satan. He warns them against letting the mouth run off spreading fires of hell. 1 John is also written to Christians. Please explain how any of these verses show universal bondage. I’m beginning to think this is just a search list of verses to make an impressive list for backing up a weak argument.
Inability to change
Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians, 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.
Job’s quote is taken out of his speech asking that God show him his sin, so that he can repent of the sins of his youth. IOW, he has changed and is willing to change if God will show him his sin but he admits that he can‘t erase his former sins. When God shows him his sin, he does change.
Jeremiah is a quote about one of Israel’s backsliding times. God has in effect given up on these who have grown accustomed to do evil, therefore he is going to punish them. This is not a universal inability to change. This is a statement warning that those who continually choose evil eventually cannot change and at this point, God will judge.
Matthew 7 is about false prophets, not all mankind. Matthew 12:33 is saying the opposite of ‘inability to change’ since by implication says to make your tree good and your fruit good, IOW, change your heart and the fruit that comes from it will be good.
John 6 refers to a specific time frame while Jesus was on earth, not all human experience. This is in reference to those who do truth coming to the light, and those doing evil, hating the light.
Romans 11 must be a wrong reference because it’s not even close to backing up your claim of ‘inability to change’. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is your best bet but is only saying that the man who is carnally minded doesn‘t pay attention to spiritual things or understand them, not that he can‘t change to become spiritually minded.
1 Corinthians 4:7 is about spiritual gifts causing some to be puffed up, and Paul is admonishing them to change and be humble, not saying they can‘t change. 2 Corinthians 3:5 says our sufficiency is of God to make us able ministers of the word. This has nothing to do with man’s ‘inability to change’. Where did you get this list, Dave…..? I’d get a refund if I were you. There’s more to your list but I’ve had enough for right now. So far, you got zip.
:roll:
Vic C.
Member
Sorry to butt in... just a quicky.
(Rev 2:11 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Rev 20:6 KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Rev 20:14 KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If the first death is physical and it's only possible die once (Hebrews 9:27), the the second death, which will occur for some and is after the Great Judgement, is a Spiritual death.
(Rev 2:11 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Rev 20:6 KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Rev 20:14 KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If the first death is physical and it's only possible die once (Hebrews 9:27), the the second death, which will occur for some and is after the Great Judgement, is a Spiritual death.
lovely
Member
Hi Vic,
I just wanted to clairfy this. I think spiritual death, as Dave is using the term, is found in Ephesians 2. It's specifically referring to the state of Adam after the fall, and the state of man born into sin...dead in trespasses, alive in Christ...this is what the phrase refers to. Correct me if I am wrong Dave.
Ephesians
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
This is the gift of faith, btw.
The Lord bless you.
I just wanted to clairfy this. I think spiritual death, as Dave is using the term, is found in Ephesians 2. It's specifically referring to the state of Adam after the fall, and the state of man born into sin...dead in trespasses, alive in Christ...this is what the phrase refers to. Correct me if I am wrong Dave.
Ephesians
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
This is the gift of faith, btw.
The Lord bless you.
Vic C.
Member
Thanks for the clarification.
http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... hesians_28
Oh right... I forgot I asked before. Now, where does it say that Faith is a gift? You may want to read this first. :wink:
http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... hesians_28
Vic wrote:
I kind of read into your post a little bit, both you and the quotes. I figured if you were not of that understanding yet, you were headed in that direction based on the quotes you used and the comments you made. I guess time will tell. I thought it was a safe assumption, since there was no other way to define what you meant when you stated that His "foreknowledge" was the reason, not Him (this is the classic arminian argument, nowhere to be found in scripture). If I was wrong, I apologize
Vic wrote:
I'll give you some links to some threads I started on these things when I find them.
This is right on topic...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=22374
Compatiblism defined, explained...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16345
If you're interested...
HOW CAN GOD ORDAIN SIN AND YET NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT?
http://www.corkfpc.com/shedd.html
THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES OF TRUTH
http://www.corkfpc.com/sovereigntyverses.html
THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MAN IN THE SCRIPTURES OF TRUTH
http://www.corkfpc.com/responsibility.html
Vic wrote:
Faith is a gift from God; 1 Corinthians 2:5, Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29 etc.
Also keep in mind vs. like John 15:5, and 1 Corinthians 4:7.
undertow wrote:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37 KJV)
We went over this already. Desire vs. Decree
Luke 19:41-42 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it Saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace!(desire), But now they are hidden from your eyes.(decree)
Amos 8:11 11 “ Behold, the days are coming,†says the Lord GOD,
“ That I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine of bread,
Nor a thirst for water,
But of hearing the words of the LORD.
undertow, you will not be able to understand these things because you are not saved, or at least that's what it says under your name. I''m going to pass by most of your posts for that reason and also because we are commanded by God to preach a simple Gospel message to the unsaved.
1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It would be much more productive for you if you started here.
http://www.tpgh.org/MS.htm#Tracts
I hope you stick around, you just need to start from the beginning. It's not a matter of how smart one is, it's a matter uf submitting to God in faith in the truth and obedience, and then He will be more then happy to give you those spiritual eyes. Believe me, it's true. I'm speeking from experience confirmed by the Word of God.
Lovely wrote:
You got it.
I kind of read into your post a little bit, both you and the quotes. I figured if you were not of that understanding yet, you were headed in that direction based on the quotes you used and the comments you made. I guess time will tell. I thought it was a safe assumption, since there was no other way to define what you meant when you stated that His "foreknowledge" was the reason, not Him (this is the classic arminian argument, nowhere to be found in scripture). If I was wrong, I apologize
Vic wrote:
I'll give you some links to some threads I started on these things when I find them.
This is right on topic...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=22374
Compatiblism defined, explained...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16345
If you're interested...
HOW CAN GOD ORDAIN SIN AND YET NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT?
http://www.corkfpc.com/shedd.html
THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES OF TRUTH
http://www.corkfpc.com/sovereigntyverses.html
THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MAN IN THE SCRIPTURES OF TRUTH
http://www.corkfpc.com/responsibility.html
Vic wrote:
Faith is a gift from God; 1 Corinthians 2:5, Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29 etc.
Also keep in mind vs. like John 15:5, and 1 Corinthians 4:7.
undertow wrote:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37 KJV)
We went over this already. Desire vs. Decree
Luke 19:41-42 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it Saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace!(desire), But now they are hidden from your eyes.(decree)
Amos 8:11 11 “ Behold, the days are coming,†says the Lord GOD,
“ That I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine of bread,
Nor a thirst for water,
But of hearing the words of the LORD.
undertow, you will not be able to understand these things because you are not saved, or at least that's what it says under your name. I''m going to pass by most of your posts for that reason and also because we are commanded by God to preach a simple Gospel message to the unsaved.
1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It would be much more productive for you if you started here.
http://www.tpgh.org/MS.htm#Tracts
I hope you stick around, you just need to start from the beginning. It's not a matter of how smart one is, it's a matter uf submitting to God in faith in the truth and obedience, and then He will be more then happy to give you those spiritual eyes. Believe me, it's true. I'm speeking from experience confirmed by the Word of God.
Lovely wrote:
You got it.
U
undertow
Guest
Dave... said:
An Arminian view of scripture:
Romans 8:29-30: An In-depth Look - Part 1
http://www.biblestudying.net/romans8-1.html
"In rebuttal, Calvinists might assert that the occurrence of "also" should be taken as an indication that foreknowledge and predestination occur "simultaneously" rather than the Freewill concept that foreknowledge alone comes first and acts as the basis for even predestination.
However, we should note that the word "also" appears at every step in this chain (including in the Greek). It occurs not only between "foreknow" and "predestinate" but also between "predestinate" and "called," between "called" and "justified," and between "justified" and "glorified." What this shows is that the relationship of "foreknowledge" to "predestination" is not unique among this chain of events. The word "also" is used in all cases throughout this chain of events. And so, foreknowledge relates chronologically to predestination in the same manner that predestination relates chronologically to who God called. So, if we take the Calvinists interpretation of "also" as an indication that the events occur "simultaneously" and therefore don't have any chronological relationship, we would have to assume that all five events happen simultaneously and that not one of them has any causal relationship to the others. Yet we know that "also" doesn't indicate "simultaneous occurrence" because justification and glorification are not brought to pass until later in history, while foreknowledge takes place before history.
And so, the occurrence of the word "also" between foreknowledge and predetermination does not allow the Calvinists to escape from the obvious chronology of the events listed in Romans 8:29-30. Having identified that the grammar expresses a chronology to these events, we can see that according to Romans 8:29-30, God foreknew first and his predestination came second AFTER his foreknowing in the same way that his calling occurred after his predetermination, and glorification occurs after justification. Foreknowledge ALONE then, NOT foreknowledge AND predestination, is the basis of the entire process from start to finish.
And Peter absolutely corroborates this. Speaking of his being elected to salvation in his first epistle, Peter clearly writes:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
And Paul writes similarly a few chapters later in Romans.
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
So, both Peter and Paul are completely and clearly agreed, what God foreknows is the ROOT CAUSE of who he elects and who he rejects, what God foreknew was the basis of his decision in regard to election."
Drew
Member
I certainly "do not understand" the view that you hold and I am in a relationship with Jesus. The answer you give to undertow is really dismissive. Perhaps you are right but previous arguments in other threads were not convincing. Interested readers can refer to:Dave... said:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=
I submit that the compatibilist case, as presented in that thread, was successfully and convincingly countered.
Vic C.
Member
That's ok. I often read into my own posts that way too.
: Just so you know, I lean towards predestination, it's just that my understanding of the word is different than most. I'm not normally a "go with the flow" guy.The only verse out of these that even comes close is Ephesians 2:8. That verse though is about salvation, not grace or faith. Salvation is the gift. Same with Philippians 1:29. Read 28...
Phil 1:28 28 and not being terrified in anything by those who oppose, which to them truly is a proof of destruction, but to you of salvation, and this from God;
29 because it was granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf, (LITV)
Context must be considered. Did you check out the verse I posted? They interpret Ephesians 2:8 from a grammatical point of view, which is the correct interpretation.
But I digress. This verse would make a good Bible Study topic.
U
undertow
Guest
Dave... said:
Are you suggesting that God desires something, but will decree the exact opposite? And then blame it on man?
I know I am only an unbeliever who will not understand these things, but could you clearly and precisely explain your position for the benefit of the Christians around here? Because your God looks like a crazy God!
Drew
Member
Is the implicit argument here is that God has "decreed" that certain things be hidden from the people of Jerusalem, and that they thus are not "free" to see these things.Dave... said:
If so, this would seem to be a very soft argument. The reason: An alternative interpretation that seems perfectly plausible and true to the text is as follows: The things are hidden from the people because of their free choice to go down another path. There is no necessary implication that the people of Jerusalem could not have freely accepted Jesus for who he is. There is no need to require that God "pre-determined" that the truth about Jesus would be hidden from the people.
I see this text as analogous to the following situation. Fred freely starts to drink alchohol. He continues and gets more and more addicted. At a certain point, he may indeed be incapable of freely choosing to backtrack. He freely chose a certain path and that had its consequences, one of which is that he is now in a position where escape of his own effort has become impossible for him - the way out is "hidden" to him, not by the pre-determining actions of God, but by the very nature of an alchohol addiction that was freely entered.
Perhaps I misunderstand the implied point of the above post. As undertow has asked, please clarify. If we can understand your position, that will be a start. The issues here are complex and we all understand that it can be very challenging to transform what is in one's mind into clear and precise statements. We all face that challenge.
Vic C.
Member
Hi again Dave...
I checked out some of the links. I am not a 5 pointer, I am not a Calvinist, I am not an Arminian, etc. I am a believer and follower of Jesus. If we need some type of title or formula to define our Faith, we make believing so much more difficult. If I need one of the above titles to "seal" my faith , then my Faith is meaningless.
If what you are suggesting is true, that God preordained every single thing, every single emotion, every single event, etc, then much of what we debate is meaningless also. You have just condoned sins such as homosexuality, adultery, etc. "It's not their fault, God made them that way" is the cry we hear form the proponents of such sins. You are in effect, saying they are right.
Bottom line is, we must assume some responsibility for our actions, it's not always Satan's fault... and we KNOW it's not God's fault, so who is left to blame?
"The Devil made me do it". Save it for Flip Wilson, please. 8-)
vic said:
Faith is a gift of God...man doesn't want to believe and this idea of man being this misunderstood fella, who's only trying to make it in the world is silly. God calls unbelievers hostile toward Him. They hate God and their minds can't be subject to His will if they try.
2Th 3:4
And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The will to believe included in this statement as well.
Joh 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
What is the work of God? That you believe.
God decreed all things from eternity past by the council of His own free will. God is not the author of sin but controls all secondary causes that work together to accomplish His own eternal plan and purpose. All things are established according to God’s wisdom, bringing about all things for His glory and good pleasure, which the finite mind is incapable of understanding all of God’s ways. God has elected a people for Himself, by glory and likewise the reprobate for the same purpose.
Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5
Have a look at the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Here we find a perfect example of man doing his will, that is to sin, and God allowing that sin to happen and using the outcome for good.
Bottom line Vic, God saves some of the hostile rebels and brings them into His kingdom, the rest He leaves in their sin because they love it. It's not God's fault we are sinner's.
:-? Our fallen nature made us do it because we always do what we want. When God sents a sinner free, that's free to believe, we then see the Spiritual offer of the Kingdom and then, only then, can we accept the offer...this is after regeneration.
I only wish eschatology was as clear as soteriology! lol
Peace,
j