Sovereignty and a God that can be Moved

[unred typo]

I agree, undertow. God could do that 'total control' thing easily I think. What is impossible for God to do is cause an uncaused action, or it wouldn’t be uncaused. So free will thoughts, actions and feelings that were done out of actual love and respect and worship of God would have great significance to him. That lump of mud horse (…errr…might be a cat…izzit a dog?) figurine you “always wanted†and got for Father’s Day mean more to you than something nice you bought yourself. Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before him, knowing it would free the world he loved from the power of sin and death, to freely serve and love him back.

P.S. Mutz, have a nice time. Don't worry about me. I..I'll ...be fine.... :

 

[Dave...]

Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe it?

There's a lot of scripture that says the same. Try to make an attempt not to blind yourself to them. For those that are not His, this truth is very offensive and they will go to great lengths to convince themselves that it isn't true.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe it?

I sure do, Dave…our inheritance is in him. God planned, predestined, and decided in the beginning of creation that those who chose to obey and love him would be redeemed by his blood.

Dave… wrote: There's a lot of scripture that says the same. Try to make an attempt not to blind yourself to them. For those that are not His, this truth is very offensive and they will go to great lengths to convince themselves that it isn't true.

Bring it on, Dave. It won’t offend me at all.

 

[unred typo]

Sorry, Dave… I missed the bold word in your post. Let’s read that again:
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Sure, I still believe it. Let’s pull another verse that puts all things into proper perspective, it‘s probably one of your favorites and fits so well into this discussion:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Not ‘all things are good’ but God eventually ‘works them out for good.’ Our God is constantly at work, dealing with the ever changing present moments of our lives, working all things to the counsel of his will, bringing his will to pass. Think about that. The counsel of his will.

 

[Vic C.]

Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe it?

There's a lot of scripture that says the same. Try to make an attempt not to blind yourself to them. For those that are not His, this truth is very offensive and they will go to great lengths to convince themselves that it isn't true.

Try doing a word search on the words predestined, elect, elected. chose, choose, chosen, etc. You'll get the picture.

 

[lovely]

Some thoughts....

Scripture explains itself. When a question arises in our minds we should interpret it with Scripture, and in the framework of Scriptural Truth. To ignore other important truths to make something fit with our momentary understanding leads to error...The Holy Spirit can teaches, and it is a process. Commentary should be an aid only, and never trusted.


Calvinism, and Arminians, both agree that God is sovereign. In fact, the agree on all the attributes of God. The difference in them is free will...among other non related issues...but Calvinism believes that it is only by the choosing of the Spirit that one comes to faith, and that a will is not free in a sinful state, and that one can not loose their salvation. There is no disagreement on God's attributes. Of course, Jesus speaks to what true religion is, and that comes out of a heart that is Spirit-filled, and theology is secondary to charity.

A personal relationship with a perfect, Holy, Sovereign, All-Knowing, Ever-Present God is found only through Christ. It is not Him that needs to change...He is perfect, and not in need of improving, or lowering Himself to man's level. Man, on the other hand is in need of change in order to have this relationship...the gap was caused by Adam, and it is indeed a gap. JESUS is the way we come to God, WE must be changed...WASHED in the blood of the LAMB. A STRONG-CALVINIST view does not wash you, and therefore the reality of any kind of real relationship between God and man is not hinged upon this view...it hinges on the Gospel, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the blood of the Lamb, which results in a life of loving obedience to our MASTER. CHRIST is our mediator...he is the way we have a relationship, not through Calvinism, or Open Theism.

Prayer, sin, prophecy, and anything else God desires will be used to carry out His Will. Jesus told us to pray "THY will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"...these words put our spirit and will in perfect harmony with the will of God when sincere. God's promises are sound, and they will not change due to fickle-ness. He is eternally faithful because His Will is immutable, and will be accomplished, and we can Trust Him.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Drew]

Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe it?

Yes I believe this. But let's be clear - this text in no way requires that we see God as prescribing every event, or that we humans are not free moral agents. I submit that some people bring a certain belief to this and other similar texts - namely that God can only achieve his purposes by prescribing all events and reducing human freedom to zero. I think this is simply not true and reflects our limited imaginations in respect to how can accomplish his purposes.

But getting back to "technicalities", the Ephesians text does talk about pre-destination, but the text does not require us to see this as pre-destination in respect to every event in the universe. The text is open to the following kind of reading: "Being 'pre-destined to his purpose' really means that God has a purpose in respect to creation in general, and he works all things, including free-will actions that He ultimately does not control, to achieve his purpose"

I think it is a strictly human limitation that some cannot see how this can be achieved without God controlling all events. I believe that I have provided arguments against such a view in a number of threads. I can repeat them if there is interest.

Try to make an attempt not to blind yourself to them. For those that are not His, this truth is very offensive and they will go to great lengths to convince themselves that it isn't true.

It is unhelpful to introduce this kind of statement in a debate. It is clearly an attempt to cast aspersions on the content of a point of view by questioning the underlying motives of the person who holds it. It is much more constructive to debate the issue and not make such speculative statements about peoples' motives.

 

[Dave...]

Typo wrote:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Not ‘all things are good’ but God eventually ‘works them out for good.’ Our God is constantly at work, dealing with the ever changing present moments of our lives, working all things to the counsel of his will, bringing his will to pass. Think about that. The counsel of his will.

Exactly :D But lets not stop there and try to form God's Word, which is idolatry, to a preconceived fallen assumption.

See, the problem is that you are refusing to believe that there are any other possibilities besides man being a robot, or not. That's the false assumption you are defining these verses with. It's not that God looked into the future to see what choice man would make according to his libertarian free will and then He just called it His will of decree. Even when, from the foundations of the world, His perfect plan allowed some things to take a natural course, it's because He knew the chain of events right down to the smallest detail and how everyone of them would unfold and lead to the next, ultimately serving His purpose to His will of decree. God remains sovereign and all knowing even when He allows things to happen. Even God allowing some things to happen, ultimately, serving His will of decree, this too, was from the foundations of the world and part of God's plan that has determined the beginning to the end. Everything.

'In a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to God's will [of desire] does not defeat his will [of decree]. For it would not be done did he not permit it, and of course his permission is not unwilling, but willing; nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done except that in his omnipotence he can turn evil into good'. Augustine, Enchiridion, Ch. 100:

HOW CAN GOD ORDAIN SIN AND YET NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT?
http://www.corkfpc.com/shedd.html

"There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 45:7); thus, He hates it's consequences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desire."(JMSB)

 

[Drew]

See, the problem is that you are refusing to believe that there are any other possibilities besides man being a robot, or not. That's the false assumption you are defining these verses with. It's not that God looked into the future to see what choice man would make according to his libertarian free will and then He just called it His will of decree. Even when, from the foundations of the world, His perfect plan allowed some things to take a natural course, it's because He knew the chain of events right down to the smallest detail and how everyone of them would unfold and lead to the next, ultimately serving His purpose to His will of decree. God remains sovereign and all knowing even when He allows things to happen. Even God allowing some things to happen, ultimately, serving His will of decree, this too, was from the foundations of the world and part of God's plan that has determined the beginning to the end. Everything.

Well, I guess this goes to show that we can misunderstand each other. I had hitherto believed that Dave held to the view that God controlled and prescribed all events.

However, I am a little confused. When you (Dave) say "His perfect plan allowed some things to take a natural course", you imply He does not prescriptively control these things. Fine. But at the end of your post, you use the term "everything". I am not sure how to take this. I presume that you do not believe God prescribes every event, otherwise this would be inconsistent with your statement about things taking a natural course.

I certainly agree that God can work events that He does not prescribe (fore-determine, pre-set, etc.) to achieve his ultimate purposes.

 

[Vic C.]

Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe it?

Yes I believe this. But let's be clear - this text in no way requires that we see God as prescribing every event, or that we humans are not free moral agents. I submit that some people bring a certain belief to this and other similar texts - namely that God can only achieve his purposes by prescribing all events and reducing human freedom to zero. I think this is simply not true and reflects our limited imaginations in respect to how can accomplish his purposes....

That sounds reasonable. While looking for a way to best explain what I believe, I ran across a definition that come close:

God knows our destiny yet He does not intrude on our free will. While he has foreknowledge of our eternity destiny and provides for the graces we receive, He does not positively fore-ordain anyone to hell. We each have free will to choose our destiny.

http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/q ... 60081.html

This was interesting as well.

There is a difference in sentience levels and thus what he sees as "pre-destined"...I with my limited sense of perception view as free willed. I don't think If I have a lower sentience level...I can catch God off guard. And perhaps when I think I have...perhaps that was what he intended for me to interpret. For He allows all possible permutations of my limited thinking to occur. However He is aware of them all....but I as a human being am not aware of them all these limited permutations...thus for me its free-will.

http://www.mashada.com/forums/index/sho ... /index.php

 

[Dave...]

God knows our destiny yet He does not intrude on our free will. While he has foreknowledge of our eternity destiny and provides for the graces we receive, He does not positively fore-ordain anyone to hell. We each have free will to choose our destiny.
http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/q ... 60081.html

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.--- Taken from "Why I am not an Arminian"

Vic, you are assuming a "God looked into the future to see what 'libertarian free will' choice man would make. This position assumes that man is not enslaved, but free, and is contrary to the whole flow of scripture. As Spurgeon said...

"But," say others, "God elected them on the foresight of their faith." Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw.... Faith is the gift of God. Every virtue comes from him. Therefore it cannot have caused him to elect men, because it is his gift. (1:557)

If we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached?"

The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.

Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )

Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.

Genesis 6:6, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.

Bondage to sin and Satan

John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.

A universal bondage

2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, James 3:2, James 3:8, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.

Inability to change

Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians, 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.

The Spirit saves

Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 1 Peter1:1-2.

The Spirit reveals the Secrets of God

Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:21, Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 13:16, Luke 8:10, Matthew 16:15-17, John 6:37, John 6:44-45, John 6:64-65, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 1:17-18, John 10:3-6, Jon 10:16, John 10:26-29.

The Spirit gives faith and repentance

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 18:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:25-26.

The Spirit effectually calls

In addition to the general outward call, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect. The general call can be and often is rejected, the special call always results in the conversion of those of whom it was made.

Romans 1:6-7, Romans 8:30, Romans 9:23-24, 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-31, Galations 1:15-16, Eppesians 4:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 9:15, Jude 1, 1 Peter 1:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Pter, 5:10, 2 Peter 1:3, Revelations 17:14.

Salvation, Given by a Sovereign God

Isaiah 55:11, John 3:27, John 17:2, Romans 9:16, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Philippians 2:12-13, James 1:18, 1 John 5:20.

Perseverance is from God

Isaiah 43:1-3, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 32:40, Matthew 18:12-14, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, John 17:11-12, John 17:15, Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 29-30, Romans 8:35-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 2 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 John 5:20, Jude 1, Jude 24-25.

 

[unred typo]

Vic wrote:Try doing a word search on the words predestined, elect, elected. chose, choose, chosen, etc. You'll get the picture

I’ve done that many times in various discussions ad nauseam. The reason they seem so conclusively compelling in favor of the Calvinist view is because the words have been assigned meaning in a new concept that wasn’t there when the passages were written. Trying to untangle them will make your head spin from all the circular reasoning and just plain nonsensical conglomerations of ideas. Of course that is just my view and you may not agree. I can assure you that I do step away from my view occasionally to objectively examine other concepts, at the same time trying not to be blown about by every wind of doctrine. There’s a lot of wind here. Some days it seems like a hurricane with 7-8 twisters whipping about. : I see I'm left in the dust here 4 posts behind. :roll: Keeps it interesting though. :-D

 

[Dave...]

Well, I guess this goes to show that we can misunderstand each other. I had hitherto believed that Dave held to the view that God controlled and prescribed all events.

To put it a better way.... God does control all events, either directly, or passively, it/they all reach the end that was planned for it/them from the foundations of the world.

However, I am a little confused. When you (Dave) say "His perfect plan allowed some things to take a natural course", you imply He does not prescriptively control these things. Fine. But at the end of your post, you use the term "everything". I am not sure how to take this. I presume that you do not believe God prescribes every event, otherwise this would be inconsistent with your statement about things taking a natural course.

I certainly agree that God can work events that He does not prescribe (fore-determine, pre-set, etc.) to achieve his ultimate purposes.

Everything has been determined from the foundations of the World. It's just that God does not need to make man a robot to reach this predetermined end.

Remember this...

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."Taken from the book "Why I am not an Arminian"

 

[lovely]

Dave, good explanations.

 

[Vic C.]

Vic, you are assuming a "God looked into the future to see what 'libertarian free will' choice man would make. This position assumes that man is not enslaved, but free, and is contrary to the whole flow of scripture.

Hmm, I don't recall saying this and my quote doesn't suggest this either. Past, present and future are linear terms we humans use to help us understand things. I believe God doesn't exist in those dimentions as we do, therefore He exists in them all simultaneously. That would mean He doesn't have to look into any furure.

I'm not sure I even know what 'libertarian free will' is. So are you saying HE pre-ordained Adam and Eve to "Fall" in the Garden? Where is Man's responsibility in all this? Do we blame everything wrong on Satan and the Fall? That's a bit of a copout, don't you think?

As Spurgeon said...

"But," say others, "God elected them on the foresight of their faith." Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw.... Faith is the gift of God. Every virtue comes from him. Therefore it cannot have caused him to elect men, because it is his gift. .

Maybe Spurgeon is wrong. 8-) Where does it say "Faith is the gift of God"?

I hope this is not off topic.

 

[undertow]

Remember this...

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."Taken from the book "Why I am not an Arminian"

Lets imagine that someone commits a murder. Did they do so in a "free" way if:

(a) Their behaviour was determined.
(b) They wanted to do it, (which was also determined)

The compatibilist seems to say that (a) isn't a problem because of (b). But why would (b) resolve the problem when (b) was also determined?

 

[Drew]

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires.

This does not make sense to me. Anyone supporting such a position needs to explain precisely how it is that we are "free" if indeed every human action has a sufficient cause outside the human will.

I know that this issue has arisen in the past, but we all need to be true to the meanings of words. Let me try to be as precise as possible: If each Fred's actions truly has a sufficient cause outside Fred's will, then none of his actions are caused, in any part, by his will. Do we agree? If Fred is still "free to act", as the quote asserts, "where" does this freedom lie? It cannot lie in his will, since the quote already rejects that. But the quote asserts that Fred is still free - there has to be something "inside" Fred that is free. If not his will, what?

One simply cannot (legitimately) say that "Fred is free to act" on the one hand and say that all his actions are sufficiently caused outside his will on the other (unless one proposes another faculty in Fred distinct from his will - and such a strategy would backfire anyway).

 

[Vic C.]

"compatibilist"

Hey, I just learned another new word. 8-)

 

[lovely]

Everyone, a few questions...Why is it that man has to be set free from sin, if we are not bound to it? And if you agree we are bound to sin, in what capacity?

I would like to start a serious of posts that help us define some terms, and study this topic in a spectrum that is less broad, because so many things relate to it. desire to prove anything, but just as study of the Word, with the aid of prayer, and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I will post in Bible Study.

1. What was the condition of Adam before sin.
2. What is the result of Adam's sin for man.
3. What is the will?
4. What was the state of Adam's will prior to the fall?
5. What is the state of man's will before salvation, was it free, or bound?
6. What is the state of man's will after salvation, is it free, or bound? And, how does salvation affect the flesh of man?
7. What are the attributes of God?
8. What in God's attributes prevent man from coming to Him in a sinful state, or do they?
9. How do God's attributes relate to the need for redemption?
10. How are we saved?
11. How are we guilty, are we all guilty, or just some?

 

[JM]

After much thought, I can no longer consider Open Theists as brother or sister Christians.