Sovereignty and a God that can be Moved

[JM]

PS:

I am not a 5 pointer, I am not a Calvinist, I am not an Arminian, etc.

Vic, do you believe you can lose your salvation? If no, what happen to your freewill after you were saved and "set free?" It's inconsistent to believe OSAS and freewill...would you be more free after being set free or do you lose your freewill when you're saved? If yes, carry on, your consistent [not Biblical : ] and probably more Arminian then you think.

Peace,

j

 

[Drew]

God decreed all things from eternity past by the council of His own free will. God is not the author of sin but controls all secondary causes that work together to accomplish His own eternal plan and purpose. All things are established according to God’s wisdom, bringing about all things for His glory and good pleasure, which the finite mind is incapable of understanding all of God’s ways. God has elected a people for Himself, by glory and likewise the reprobate for the same purpose.

What, precisely, do you mean when you say God "decreed" all things. If you mean that he was a fully sufficient cause for each and every event, then you indeed have made Him the author of sin, precisely because to be the fully sufficient cause for a sinful act means that the causing agent has "authored" sin. If someone is a fully sufficient cause for X, He is the agent that "brings X about". Presumably you must mean something else when you refer to God "decree-ing" something.

How does a "secondary" cause differ from a "primary" cause. There must be a distinction in your mind - it will help us all to understand where you are coming from if you articulate this distinction.

 

[Drew]

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What is the work of God? That you believe.

Sure, we probably all agree that God is involved in the work of bringing us to belief. But this text, by itself, simply does not justify, to the exclusion of other interpretations, that human will is not somehow involved. Our belief can be substantively and overwhelmingly God's work and yet we are still required to reach out and accept the gift.

The scriptures are not a precise technical specification that need to be taken literally. In Matthew 13, Jesus says:

"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches".

People debate about whether Jesus is correct in his claim that the mustard seed is smaller than all other seeds. This misses the point entirely, in my view. The scriptures are not to be read this way.

In the same way, we cannot presume that the above text requires us to conclude that if something is "the work of God", this means that there are no other agents contributing to the outcome.

Certainly, we do not speak this way in normal day- to day life. Someone says "The theory of relatively is Einstein's work". This statement is never intended to carry the extra-ordinarily precise connotation that no other humans contributed anything whatsoever. Probably some grad student helped him with some tiny detail. But it is still, in our way of speaking, substantively the "work" of Einstein.

I suspect that the same principle applies to the John 6 text.

 

[undertow]

God decreed all things from eternity past by the council of His own free will. God is not the author of sin but controls all secondary causes that work together to accomplish His own eternal plan and purpose. All things are established according to God?s wisdom, bringing about all things for His glory and good pleasure, which the finite mind is incapable of understanding all of God?s ways. God has elected a people for Himself, by glory and likewise the reprobate for the same purpose.

Where in scripture do you get this idea of "secondary causes", and God not being the author of sin? I am a little suspicious that you go by man-made philosophy and not God's word. But perhaps you have some Bible verses that talk of these "secondary causes" and the role that they play?

 

[undertow]

Where in scripture do you get this idea of "secondary causes", and God not being the author of sin? I am a little suspicious that you go by man-made philosophy and not God's word. But perhaps you have some Bible verses that talk of these "secondary causes" and the role that they play?

I don't ask that the term "secondary causes" be found in scripture, but I do ask whether the concept involved can be clearly found in scripture?

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Jason,

I only wish eschatology was as clear as soteriology! lol

I see it the other way; I wish soteriology was a simple as eschatology. :-D

I am secure knowing this;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I had faith, always had faith (as in, I believed). Didn't have a faith that saved until I WAS saved. When I was first saved and was going though our indoctrination classes, Paster Steve said to us, "Don't get into a battle between God's sovereignty and man's free will. They can coexist. Your free will will diminish as you are being saved." (reminds me of 1 Corinthians 1:18)

OSAS, yes, I believe that. I think you know I do. Having said all that, I still "insist" salvation, not faith, is the gift Paul is writing about. It is clear to me that the entire passage in question is about salvation.

If you get time, please read this: http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1994i/J12-94c.htm

excerpt:

Ephesians 2:8 is a magnificent statement concerning the eternal salvation which is graciously provided by God through the medium of faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is not a divine gift from God. Faith is a personal conviction which a person exercises when he or she encounters Jesus the Christ. The clear exhortation from Paul and the other NT writers is for people to believe. There is no biblical data to warrant the belief that faith itself is given by God. Robertson correctly concludes, ‘“Grace’ is God’s part, ‘faith’ ours.â€Â[39] God provides the free gift of salvation on the basis of His grace. People must receive the free gift of salvation by means of faith. Such is the clear and distinct message of Eph 2:8.

Now I think I will take Pastor's advice and stay out of this battle.

;-)

I will say one more thing; why the Great Commission if God has already pre-ordained who is to believe and who isn't? What purpose does witnessing have if a person's "fate" is already chosen? This position (Calvinism) isn't that far from UR if you really think about it. (Calvin can't be 100% correct, that would make him infallible) Since some say God choses who will believe and who won't, then how can a just God condemn any for their unbelief, if it wasn't their choice to begin with? Why an unforgivable sin (blasphemy of the Spirit) if it was God that put them in that position in the first place?

Now some will answer that by saying, "it isn't God that condemns them, they do it to themselves."

I say, "exactly!"

 

[Vic C.]

If I may sak one more thing:

Does God choose everyone HE calls?

 

[JM]

London Baptist Confession of Faith 5.2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[Acts 2:23] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[Proverbs 16:33]yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. [Genesis 8:22, 50:20]

We voluntarily sin and God uses that for His own purpose and glory.

For those who believe God changes His mind, Boyce wrote: In reply to this objection, it may be stated that these are merely anthropopathic expressions, intended simply to impress upon men his great anger at sin, and his warm approval of the repentance of those who had sinned against him. The change of conduct, in men, not in God, had changed the relation between them and God. Sin had made them liable to his just displeasure. Repentance had brought them within the possibilities of his mercy. Had he not treated them differently then there would have been change in him. His very unchangeableness makes it necessary that he shall treat differently those who are innocent and those who are guilty, those who harden themselves against him and those who turn toward him for mercy, with repentant hearts. So far as the first of these passages is concerned, it is simply a protest against the great wickedness into which the race of man has fallen. The Scriptures show that God has had a purpose with reference to such sin, which, from the beginning, contemplated the fall of man and the different stages of wickedness by which in various ages that fall has been accompanied. These statements differ widely from those which declare love, pity, or anger, for there is no emotion in God correspondent with the outward declaration. Abstracts of Systematic Theology, VII.

From “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner

Prov. 16:9: A man's heart deviseth his way; But Jehovah directeth his steps.
Jer. 10:23: O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Ex. 12:36: And Jehovah gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked.
Ezra 6:22: For Jehovah had made them joyful, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God (rebuilding the temple).
Ezra 7:6: And the king (Artaxerxes) granted him (Ezra) all his request, according to the hand of Jehovah his God upon him.
Is. 44:28: (Jehovah) that saith of Cyrus (the heathen king of Persia), He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying of Jerusalem, She shall be built; and of the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Rev. 17:17: (Concerning the wicked it is said) God did put in their hearts to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.
I Sam. 2:25: They (Eli's sons) harkened not unto the voice of their father, because Jehovah was minded to slay them.
I Kings 12:11, 15: And now whereas my father (Solomon) did lade you with a heavy yoke, I (Rehoboam) will add to your yoke; my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. . . . So the king harkened not unto the people; for it was a thing brought about of Jehovah.
II Sam. 17:14: And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The Counsel of Hushai is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For Jehovah had ordained to defeat the counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that Jehovah might bring evil upon Absalom .

Vic, who’s Pastor Steve?

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God…†What is “that†Vic? Dr. James White, one of the editors on the NASB believes [as I do, even before I heard him say it] “that†sums up everything that came before…Grace and Faith.

I will say one more thing; why the Great Commission if God has already pre-ordained who is to believe and who isn't?

We are means, the tool in which God calls His elect into His Kingdom. We share the Gospel for God’s glory, we share the Gospel because we are commanded to. I wonder how many open theists beat the streets on Friday nights sharing the Gospel, or how many missions are driven by open theists…history proves Calvinistic doctrine leads to revival and evangelism. One of the shinning examples in the last 100 years would be South Korea, in recent times Africa.

What purpose does witnessing have if a person's "fate" is already chosen?

What is the chief end of God? To glorify Himself. We share the Gospel for His glory. Souls are saved by the power of the Holy Spirit. Why does the Spirit convict some men and not others?

This position (Calvinism) isn't that far from UR if you really think about it.

Well Vic, that’s simply not true. Name a few UR evangelists for me? Judge the doctrine by it’s fruit.

(Calvin can't be 100% correct, that would make him infallible) Since some say God choses who will believe and who won't, then how can a just God condemn any for their unbelief, if it wasn't their choice to begin with? Why an unforgivable sin (blasphemy of the Spirit) if it was God that put them in that position in the first place?

This same questions was asked of the apostle Paul, he gave this answer: “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? The unforgivable sin is found in the heart of hostile, unregenerate man, “…What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction…†The questioner is asking "how come God finds fault if everything is in His hands, Paul replies "He can do as He likes."

Now some will answer that by saying, "it isn't God that condemns them, they do it to themselves."

I say, "exactly!"

We agree.

 

[JM]

I missed this, sorry.

(Calvin can't be 100% correct, that would make him infallible)

Vic, Calvin didn't create "Calvinism" he systemize the doctrines of Grace.

He wasn't the only person who believed in these doctrines. Martin Luther wrote "Bondage of the Will", before Him Wycliff taught predestination [ http://www.lwbc.co.uk/theology_of_wycli ... estination ], before him [ http://www.class.uh.edu/gbrown/philosop ... s/Hus.html ], before him we find it in the writtings of the Waldeneses all the way back to St. Augustine.

No one is infallible Vic, but some are more logical then others, Calvin was just a man with good theology.


Here's a few quotes from John Nelson Darby's work that I find delightful to read.

"All men speak about freewill is nonsense - free and will do not go together - there is no will till a person is decided and determined. Man is perfectly free to will, as far as constraint by another goes; in truth, as far as man's faculties go, he cannot be otherwise, i.e., it is his own will where he has one - his body, his acts may be constrained, and fear may make him will as other inclinations would not have led him, but his will as will is always his own."

"A creature could not be a creature and not imperfect, and hence liable to fall - I add could not be in the truth; hence, in a glorious state he "abode not in the truth." As to man he fell tempted, when something above and out of his state was presented, having lost sinfully his confidence in God."

"Inclination without necessity, is not tenable ground. Absolute indifference, to make man free, is absurd, for then will cannot be determined, but is a partially determined will - determined to good or evil; if to evil, it is a hard case to set it so, and make it responsible as a free person; nor is it more so if to good. It is not simple probation. Besides, if there be already an inclination, it shows that such inclination is a nature, not a will, and hence the whole ground taken is false." Notes and Comments Vol. 1

"If Christ has come to save that which is lost, free-will has no longer any place. Not that God hinders man from receiving Christ  far from it. But even when God employs all possible motives, everything which is capable of influencing the heart of man, it only serves to demonstrate that man will have none of it, that his heart is so corrupted and his will so decided not to submit to God (whatever may be the truth of the devil's encouraging him in sin), that nothing can induce him to receive the Lord and to abandon sin. If, by liberty of man, it is meant that no one obliges him to reject the Lord, this liberty exists fully. But if it is meant that, because of the dominion of sin to which he is a slave, and willingly a slave, he cannot escape from his state and choose good (while acknowledging that it is good, and approving it), then he has no liberty whatever. He is not subject to the law, neither indeed can be; so that those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Letter on Free-will

"Christianity makes free too; man is perfectly free to will, i.e., there is no determination ab extra in his natural state; but he is not free in will, because the law in his members brings it into captivity, which is merely saying he has a sinful nature. It is a matter of fact, because the rule, or nature, or law of good and evil cannot change, and, however overlaid by false education or customs, can be reached by the truth, and so the word does by the power of the Spirit of God; it penetrates, and natural conscience resumes and asserts its empire - that does not set free, nor deliver, so that we carry out the will determined by the conscience - the hindrance of lust is there, but there is deliverance in Christ. But it is here that Romans 7, and natural conscience come together, the applied rule awakes the conscience, and gives it its title in the moral judgment. Besides that, quickening power determines the will, but still deliverance is to be sought, for right desires are not power, even when will is included in the desire. It will be given surely if sought, but that is another thing, and an important difference, because it casts us in dependence on God, gives the sense of guilt and inability in the flesh to please God, so that we have first to be in Christ. Redemption goes before power, and that is an immense fact, and alone puts us in our place, quod nota." Will



Peace,

j

 

[Drew]

London Baptist Confession of Faith 5.2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[Acts 2:23] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[Proverbs 16:33]yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. [Genesis 8:22, 50:20]

We voluntarily sin and God uses that for His own purpose and glory.

Simple question. If all things come to pass through the decree of God, how can any human act be voluntary? I guess it depends upon you mean by "decree". Please clarify. All I am asking for is an explanation of what you is meant when one says that an event is "decreed" by God.

 

[Imagican]

Hi Jason,

I only wish eschatology was as clear as soteriology! lol

I see it the other way; I wish soteriology was a simple as eschatology. :-D

I am secure knowing this;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I had faith, always had faith (as in, I believed). Didn't have a faith that saved until I WAS saved. When I was first saved and was going though our indoctrination classes, Paster Steve said to us, "Don't get into a battle between God's sovereignty and man's free will. They can coexist. Your free will will diminish as you are being saved." (reminds me of 1 Corinthians 1:18)

OSAS, yes, I believe that. I think you know I do. Having said all that, I still "insist" salvation, not faith, is the gift Paul is writing about. It is clear to me that the entire passage in question is about salvation.

If you get time, please read this: http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1994i/J12-94c.htm

excerpt:
[quote:9fcf4]Ephesians 2:8 is a magnificent statement concerning the eternal salvation which is graciously provided by God through the medium of faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is not a divine gift from God. Faith is a personal conviction which a person exercises when he or she encounters Jesus the Christ. The clear exhortation from Paul and the other NT writers is for people to believe. There is no biblical data to warrant the belief that faith itself is given by God. Robertson correctly concludes, ‘“Grace’ is God’s part, ‘faith’ ours.â€Â[39] God provides the free gift of salvation on the basis of His grace. People must receive the free gift of salvation by means of faith. Such is the clear and distinct message of Eph 2:8.

Now I think I will take Pastor's advice and stay out of this battle.

;-)

I will say one more thing; why the Great Commission if God has already pre-ordained who is to believe and who isn't? What purpose does witnessing have if a person's "fate" is already chosen? This position (Calvinism) isn't that far from UR if you really think about it. (Calvin can't be 100% correct, that would make him infallible) Since some say God choses who will believe and who won't, then how can a just God condemn any for their unbelief, if it wasn't their choice to begin with? Why an unforgivable sin (blasphemy of the Spirit) if it was God that put them in that position in the first place?

Now some will answer that by saying, "it isn't God that condemns them, they do it to themselves."

I say, "exactly!"[/quote:9fcf4]

Exellent point Vic. If there is NO free will that allows those that 'hear' the Word to be 'moved' to accept the Savior, WHY EVEN offer our testimony or witness. What was offered at the end of each gospel would be of NONE effect if there is NO FREE WILL. Predestination at BEST can ONLY mean that God is aware of the choice that will be made. NOT that HE is the one that chooses the choice.

MEC

 

[undertow]

London Baptist Confession of Faith 5.2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[Acts 2:23] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[Proverbs 16:33]yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. [Genesis 8:22, 50:20]

Here's a few quotes from John Nelson Darby's work that I find delightful to read.

"All men speak about freewill is nonsense - free and will do not go together - there is no will till a person is decided and determined. Man is perfectly free to will, as far as constraint by another goes; in truth, as far as man's faculties go, he cannot be otherwise, i.e., it is his own will where he has one - his body, his acts may be constrained, and fear may make him will as other inclinations would not have led him, but his will as will is always his own."

In the first quote it uses the word "freely" (presumably about free will?). In the second quote it says "free and will do not go together". Are you contradicting yourself JM?

 

[Drew]

Dr William Lane Craig on Romans 9:19-24. I have added bolding. I do not necessarily say this material represents my view. However, it is another "take" on the Romans text.

Dr. Craig: The way I understand that passage in Romans 9 is that Paul is saying God is sovereign to elect whom he wills and to not save whom he wills, that this is God’s discretion and that we can’t answer back to God. But what Paul then goes on to explain is that those whom God has chosen to elect are those who have faith in Christ Jesus. Thus in Galatians 3 he says: Therefore you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham and are heirs to the promise.

I see Romans 9 as not narrowing the scope of God’s election, but broadening it out, saying to these ethnic Jews, "You can’t claim, because of your ethnicity as Jewish people, that you alone are the elect of God and that these Gentiles are not included in God’s salvation." Paul is saying God elects and saves whomever he wills, and he has willed to save all those who have faith in Christ Jesus, even these Gentiles, though they are not part of the ethnic people of Israel. I see it as an assertion of God’s divine sovereignty. It then needs to be asked: Who is it that God has chosen to save? It’s those who have faith in Christ. Therefore in Romans 10 he says, "Therefore, whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

[undertow]

This talk of "secondary causes" not only appears to be incoherent nonsense, but where is the scripture for it? Have Calvinists created this doctrine out of nothing?

 

[JM]

London Baptist Confession of Faith 5.2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[Acts 2:23] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[Proverbs 16:33]yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. [Genesis 8:22, 50:20]

Here's a few quotes from John Nelson Darby's work that I find delightful to read.

"All men speak about freewill is nonsense - free and will do not go together - there is no will till a person is decided and determined. Man is perfectly free to will, as far as constraint by another goes; in truth, as far as man's faculties go, he cannot be otherwise, i.e., it is his own will where he has one - his body, his acts may be constrained, and fear may make him will as other inclinations would not have led him, but his will as will is always his own."

In the first quote it uses the word "freely" (presumably about free will?). In the second quote it says "free and will do not go together". Are you contradicting yourself JM?

This is a good example of seeing only what you want to see, finish reading the quote from Darby. :roll:

If all things come to pass through the decree of God, how can any human act be voluntary?

Sin was allowed by God to enter into the world by His decree, so we must conclude that it has a purpose. Once sin entered in, it has enslaved us by determining our will and our nature [all have sinned in Adam as our federal head]. If you can't account for sin being allowed by decree with a purpose, then God has failed, He has been beaten by His creation.

Man is sinnful [this is the crux of the argument] and freely sins according to his nature. What God does in regeneration is set us free from the bondage of sin so we can freely believe the Gospel...this is the "I" in the TULIP. Once we are able to see the spiritual offer of the Kingdom [see John 3, you can't even see the Kingdom of God] we will eventually believe...freely.

We sin freely because we are sinners, we believe freely once set free from sin.

J.

 

[JM]

Exellent point Vic. If there is NO free will that allows those that 'hear' the Word to be 'moved' to accept the Savior, WHY EVEN offer our testimony or witness. What was offered at the end of each gospel would be of NONE effect if there is NO FREE WILL. Predestination at BEST can ONLY mean that God is aware of the choice that will be made. NOT that HE is the one that chooses the choice.

MEC

Imagican, you agree with Vic, but his points are not "excellent."

Augustine wrote: “For what is foreknowledge if not knowledge of future events? But can anything be future to God, who surpasses all time? For if God’s knowledge includes these very things themselves, they are not future to him but present; and for this reason we should no longer speak of God’s foreknowledge but simply of God’s knowledge.†Agreeing with Augustine, Gregory the Great wrote: “Whatever is past and future to us is immediately present in his sight.†For God, “there is no distinctions of time†[Tertullian, Against Marcion].

We as finite man see time as moving forward, but for God it’s always present. It’s a human idea to think that God is affected by time, it’s also a human idea to separate God’s omniscience from His all knowing foreknowledge and mix it with humanity’s nostalgic thinking. The Scriptures fully teach the omniscience of God as antecede to creation. [ http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...04.htm ]Without understanding this, without fully recognising God’s foreknowledge as being truly preceding creation we cannot come to terms with divine omniscience. I found in the works of Tertullian [Against Marcion] that attempts to harmonize human freewill with God’s omniscience, the tendency is to over emphasize human freewill above God’s omniscience. For God to foreknow anything, man’s will for example, He would have to know before the will is made because God is omniscient. For man to be created with a will, God would have to know what will to give man, this is also based on His omniscience. God’s wisdom doesn’t depend on human will, human will depends upon God’s infinite wisdom.

Augustine wrote, “If foreknowledge does not foreknow things that are certain to happen, it is nothing at all.â€Â

In essences, since God foreknows the will of man [fallen and dead in sin, or absolutely free to choose] Gods foreknowledge determines what that will it is going to be. The will comes into being because God has foreknown it. Our wills are therefore not limited but have as much power as God wants us to have, and have with certainty. Whatever the will does, it does as a matter of foreknowledge. Since time doesn’t exist for God, foreknowledge then becomes [strictly speaking], knowledge God knows before, during and after it happens…just as we view a time line.

 

[JM]

This talk of "secondary causes" not only appears to be incoherent nonsense, but where is the scripture for it? Have Calvinists created this doctrine out of nothing?

Fool, you really are a fool. If you stopped to read what I posted you would have found a few quotes here and there.

I posted...

London Baptist Confession of Faith 5.2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[Acts 2:23] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[Proverbs 16:33]yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. [Genesis 8:22, 50:20]

We voluntarily sin and God uses that for His own purpose and glory.

Since you have a hard time reading...

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

We see God using "wicked hands" by His "determinate cousel" for a purpose.

Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

We cast "the lot" but it is God who determines what happens, "the whole disposing thereof."

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Man meant it for evil, God meant it for good.

Man is still guilty of sin, yet, God used their sinful deeds to kill Christ on the cross and to sell Jospeh into slavery.

Man = still guilty God = still good

Read the scriptures. :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Well after lying in bed last night thinking about this, I decided this morning to take a look at a couple of thought for thought translations, since the grammer gets "screwed up" in the more literal translations. I'm breaking my own guidelines by doing so, but hey, it's in the name of God and His Word.

But first:

Now some will answer that by saying, "it isn't God that condemns them, they do it to themselves."

I say, "exactly!"

We agree.

I'm glad you agree. I'm in good company :-D we now are both inconsistant. :wink:

Let me post two translations that attempt to portray the original grammer as best as possible. Maybe this will clear things up.

Ephesians 2:8 (New Living Translation)
8God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God

Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

Yeah, just as I thought. ;-)

 

[Vic C.]

Let's refrain from name-calling, please!

 

[Drew]

Undertow:

You are no fool. Name-calling arises when a person's arguments are so weak that such a strategy is all that is left to such a person.