Sovereignty and a God that can be Moved

[Drew]

And of course, we still need JM to show that the concept of "secondary causes" exists in the Bible.

I too am interested in this. Please explain precisely how a "secondary" cause differs from a "run of the mill" cause.

 

[Drew]

…even these Gentiles, though they are not part of the ethnic people of Israel. I see it as an assertion of God’s divine sovereignty. It then needs to be asked: Who is it that God has chosen to save? It’s those who have faith in Christ. Therefore in Romans 10 he says, "Therefore, whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

And who calls upon the name of the Lord? Not the unregenerate man who is hostile to God. You still haven’t offered anything to prove your position.

Do you not see how the same is true of the arguments you use? In your post above you refer to the "unregenerate man who is hostile to God". And to be fair to you, there are texts that are centainly consistent with your interpretation of this text. However, as has been shown in other threads, these texts are consistent with other interpretations as well. You have not "proven" that the statement "the unregenerate man who is hostile to God" requires us to conclude that such a man cannot freely call on God.

Craig is doing the same kind of thing here. He quotes Romans 10 with its strong implication of the imperative form of "call" as in "Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved". Such an imperative implies freedom to act. Craig's case has indeed not been proven. And, of course, neither has yours. Both his case and your case have the status of plausible cases, not established cases.

It is simply not enough to present texts that are consistent with one's view. One needs to refute arguments as to how those texts also can support another interpretation.

 

[lovely]

I thought I would offer some more verses, in addition to my last post.
Predestination in the Bible

Eph. 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Rom. 8:28-39
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
and obtain the liberty decreed by God in advance
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Corinthians 2:6-16

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Act. 4:23-31
23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Eph. 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


2 Timothy 6-14
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto


Psalms. 139:1-16

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Rom. 9:16-18

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
All the seed of Abraham were not the children of the promise
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? The calling of the Gentiles foretold[/b]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Lord bless you all.

 

[lovely]

Romans 10 seems to say what it says when you read it with the other passages as it should be read. Those who call on the Lord do so in belief, and belief is by the Spirit...Jesus described this to Nicodemus...who had the knowledge of the Word, but did not have belief by the Spirit...That is why He asked Nic, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" John 3:4-11

Romans 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
All the seed of Abraham were not the children of the promise
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The calling of the Gentiles foretold25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
God's judgments are unsearchable
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[lovely]

I want to apologize for posting so much text, and I will not make a habit if it. The Lord bless you all.

 

[John the Baptist]

I want to apologize for posting so much text, and I will not make a habit if it. The Lord bless you all.

******
I like the Masters Words! :fadein:

When we want Doctrinal Truth, such as this thread, we need to run! Matthew 4:4 2 Timothy 3:16. Then Isaiah 28:7-10 find the only ones that understands these verses are people like you, perhaps? (see the K.J. version) OSAS needs all the Words of God set aside pertaining to the subject doctrine, like a box of [one] puzzle pieces.

Then when we have them all, :wink: (most anyway!) we take them and put the Word together to see what Christ 2 Timothy 3:16 DOCTRINE tells us! Make no mistake [John,] (me) Romans 8:14 will not pass you up on His Truth! :fadein:

---John

 

[undertow]

Here is an interesting point, the God of Calvinism doesn't seem to have real foreknowledge of the future:


"Consider what a Calvinist interpretation does to this statement about God's foreknowledge. It reduces God's foreknowledge from a perfect omniscient perception of future events to a mere ordinary knowledge of his own plan.

But let's not move too quickly over that point. There is nothing extraordinary at all about knowing my own plans for the future. For "foreknowledge" to really be an accurate term to use, my knowledge would have to involved awareness of something OUTSIDE my own control.

Say for example that I was holding a tennis ball in the palm of my upraised hand. Would it be foreknowledge for me to predict that I will drop the ball? Of course not. Since I control whether or not the ball gets dropped, my knowledge of this event is ordinary knowledge of my own plan. It is not foreknowledge. It is not foresight of a future event. It is present knowledge of my present plan.

Before you believed that I had foreknowledge of the future, I would have to first demonstrate that I could foresee things OUTSIDE my own control. Therefore, before we can use the term foreknowledge, we have to be talking about future events OUTSIDE the control of the foreseer."

http://www.biblestudying.net/romans8-2.html

 

[undertow]

We have Dave with his "compatibilism", and JM with his "secondary causes". They don't appear to be able to explain and justify these things as coherent concepts. And they preach these things without (apparently) being able to provide evidence that the concepts ARE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE! And if they can't provide evidence that they are Biblical, does it not look like Dave and JM are following man-made philosophy?

 

[JM]

Blind tow, you really are, the Bible is proven correct once again.

Quote: Divine control does not, of course, imply that secondary causes, human choices, etc. are unimportant. God generally achieves his great purposes by using finite agents. Thus it is his purpose to spread the gospel throughout the world, not by miraculous revelation, but by human preaching and teaching Matt. 28:19ff. And there is no salvation (at least among adults) without human faith and repentance, John 3:16, Acts 2:38. Those who argue on the basis of divine sovereignty that evangelists should never call for "decisions" do not understand the biblical balance. God's sovereignty does not negate secondary causes; rather it empowers them, gives them significance.

Control: Obviously, Reformed theology has emphasized God's control, which "works all things after the counsel of His will," Eph. 1:11. We have already expounded this emphasis in our discussion of predestination, and Reformed theology also emphasizes the sovereignty of God in creation and providence. With Scripture, it also maintains the importance of secondary causes. John Frame, Introduction to the Reformed Faith


Secondary Causes as listed in the London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

GEN 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

JER 31:35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

EXO 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

DEU 19:5 As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live:

1KI 22:28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the Lord hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you. 34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.

ISA 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

By now you should be able to see secondary causes in action, the first cause being the work of man as he sins, the secondary cause is God using the sinful act for good.

Joseph was solid into slavery causing great sorrow to his father. This was allowed by God and when we examine the Scripture we find that God was the ultimate source…and He had a purpose.

“…ye meant evil against me[first, with man still guilt of sin], God meant it for good [second, God used the evilness of their heart for His purpose].†Genesis 45 - 50

Shimei cursed David because God told him to (2 Sam. 16:10), David surfed from undeserved violence and then acknowledge it was God who did it…for a purpose.

Now put the hat on and sit in the corner, I'm busy right now with the study of eschatology and having to come back and correct you and your unbelieving/false believe'in friend is interrupting the study. I understand that you need attention, but you'll have to find it somewhere else.

 

[Drew]

Now put the hat on and sit in the corner, I'm busy right now with the study of eschatology and having to come back and correct you and your unbelieving/false believe'in friend is interrupting the study. I understand that you need attention, but you'll have to find it somewhere else.

What a clear abuse of moderator privelege....

 

[JM]

Now put the hat on and sit in the corner, I'm busy right now with the study of eschatology and having to come back and correct you and your unbelieving/false believe'in friend is interrupting the study. I understand that you need attention, but you'll have to find it somewhere else.

What a clear abuse of moderator privelege....

Nope, this image is hosted by imageshake.com. :

 

[undertow]

Blind tow, you really are, the Bible is proven correct once again.

Firstly, this isn't an issue of whether the Bible is "correct". You seem to be a little confused on this point. The issue is whether you can provide evidence that "secondary causes" are a Biblical concept. First you need to clearly explain what is meant by "secondary causes", and what role they play in Calvinist theology. Then you can quote scripture to try and support the claim that it is Biblical.

 

[John the Baptist]

Now put the hat on and sit in the corner, I'm busy right now with the study of eschatology and having to come back and correct you and your unbelieving/false believe'in friend is interrupting the study. I understand that you need attention, but you'll have to find it somewhere else.

What a clear abuse of moderator privelege....

:D Where's your proof? This is a legal image hosted by imageshack.com. No rules have been broken.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have Dave with his "compatibilism", and JM with his "secondary causes". They don't appear to be able to explain and justify these things as coherent concepts. And they preach these things without (apparently) being able to provide evidence that the concepts ARE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE! And if they can't provide evidence that they are Biblical, does it not look like Dave and JM are following man-made philosophy?
___

Hi, I think that you have made a pretty good case of 'spiritual' Vain Jeremiah 17:5 stuff at the least! Even Titus 3:9-11! --John :

 

[undertow]

Secondary Causes as listed in the London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

GEN 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

JER 31:35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

EXO 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

DEU 19:5 As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live:

1KI 22:28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the Lord hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you. 34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.

ISA 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

By now you should be able to see secondary causes in action

This isn't very useful. EXPLAIN IN YOUR OWN WORDS EXACTLY WHAT IS MEANT BY SECONDARY CAUSES. You have come out with this idea, so presumably you can explain it?

For all we know, yourself and other Calvinists are merely reading the concept into the Bible. You may be able to "see" it in the Bible, but we need a clear definition so verses can be assessed as to whether they genuinely support this notion.

 

[Drew]

Nope, this image is hosted by imageshake.com. :

In all seriousness, please consider how the posting of your image, and your answer (above) reflects on the body of believers. You have said:

Judge the doctrine by it’s fruit.

The readers can judge for themselves what fruit you demonstrate in your posts. I will return to your effort to explain secondary causes soon....

 

[Drew]

This isn't very useful. EXPLAIN IN YOUR OWN WORDS EXACTLY WHAT IS MEANT BY SECONDARY CAUSES. You have come out with this idea, so presumably you can explain it?

I concur. Please use your own words and try to be as precise as possible in drawing a distinction between primary and secondary causes. Please try to understand that we need to be convinced that a secondary cause is somehow distinct from a "primary" cause. If the meaning of a secondary cause is clear in your mind, you should be able to articulate it in your own words.

And please be careful to follow the "causal chain" backward in your explanation. For example, if one were to say that Fred is the cause of sin "X" and yet also claim that God created Fred pre-destined to perform sin "X", then one cannot say that Fred is really the cause of sin "X" (at least not in a sense where one also talks about matters of culpability).

 

[JM]

Very little of the following has been answered as of yet, this is a classic pattern we find with Drew, and now tow. The reader will notice how the unbeliever steers the thread away from the Bible, away from the Christian worldview and into the realm of secular philosophy which has been proven inconsistent and false.

________________________________________________________

Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Do you believe it?

There's a lot of scripture that says the same. Try to make an attempt not to blind yourself to them. For those that are not His, this truth is very offensive and they will go to great lengths to convince themselves that it isn't true.

Some thoughts....

Scripture explains itself. When a question arises in our minds we should interpret it with Scripture, and in the framework of Scriptural Truth. To ignore other important truths to make something fit with our momentary understanding leads to error...The Holy Spirit can teaches, and it is a process. Commentary should be an aid only, and never trusted.


Calvinism, and Arminians, both agree that God is sovereign. In fact, the agree on all the attributes of God. The difference in them is free will...among other non related issues...but Calvinism believes that it is only by the choosing of the Spirit that one comes to faith, and that a will is not free in a sinful state, and that one can not loose their salvation. There is no disagreement on God's attributes. Of course, Jesus speaks to what true religion is, and that comes out of a heart that is Spirit-filled, and theology is secondary to charity.

A personal relationship with a perfect, Holy, Sovereign, All-Knowing, Ever-Present God is found only through Christ. It is not Him that needs to change...He is perfect, and not in need of improving, or lowering Himself to man's level. Man, on the other hand is in need of change in order to have this relationship...the gap was caused by Adam, and it is indeed a gap. JESUS is the way we come to God, WE must be changed...WASHED in the blood of the LAMB. A STRONG-CALVINIST view does not wash you, and therefore the reality of any kind of real relationship between God and man is not hinged upon this view...it hinges on the Gospel, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the blood of the Lamb, which results in a life of loving obedience to our MASTER. CHRIST is our mediator...he is the way we have a relationship, not through Calvinism, or Open Theism.

Prayer, sin, prophecy, and anything else God desires will be used to carry out His Will. Jesus told us to pray "THY will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"...these words put our spirit and will in perfect harmony with the will of God when sincere. God's promises are sound, and they will not change due to fickle-ness. He is eternally faithful because His Will is immutable, and will be accomplished, and we can Trust Him.

The Lord bless you.

Exactly But lets not stop there and try to form God's Word, which is idolatry, to a preconceived fallen assumption.

See, the problem is that you are refusing to believe that there are any other possibilities besides man being a robot, or not. That's the false assumption you are defining these verses with. It's not that God looked into the future to see what choice man would make according to his libertarian free will and then He just called it His will of decree. Even when, from the foundations of the world, His perfect plan allowed some things to take a natural course, it's because He knew the chain of events right down to the smallest detail and how everyone of them would unfold and lead to the next, ultimately serving His purpose to His will of decree. God remains sovereign and all knowing even when He allows things to happen. Even God allowing some things to happen, ultimately, serving His will of decree, this too, was from the foundations of the world and part of God's plan that has determined the beginning to the end. Everything.

'In a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to God's will [of desire] does not defeat his will [of decree]. For it would not be done did he not permit it, and of course his permission is not unwilling, but willing; nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done except that in his omnipotence he can turn evil into good'. Augustine, Enchiridion, Ch. 100:

HOW CAN GOD ORDAIN SIN AND YET NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT?
http://www.corkfpc.com/shedd.html

"There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 45:7); thus, He hates it's consequences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desire."(JMSB)

If we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in the libertarian sense) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached?"

The result of the fall of man into spiritual death.

Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:1-7, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 2:13, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, ( John 3:5-7 compaire to John 1:12-13 )

Darkened minds and corrupt hearts.

Genesis 6:6, Genesis 8:21, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:19, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 4:17-19, Ephesians 5:8, Titus 1:15.

Bondage to sin and Satan

John 8:44, Ephesians 2:1-2, 2 Timothy 2:25-26, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, John 8:34, Romans 6:20, Titus 3:3.

A universal bondage

2 Chronicles 6:36 (Compaire to 1 Kings 8:46), Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:9-12, James 3:2, James 3:8, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10.

Inability to change

Job 14:4, Jeremiah 13:23, Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 12:33, John 6:44, John 6:65, Romans 11:35-36, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians, 4:7, 2 Corinthians 3:5.

The Spirit saves

Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 1 Peter1:1-2.

The Spirit reveals the Secrets of God

Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:21, Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 13:16, Luke 8:10, Matthew 16:15-17, John 6:37, John 6:44-45, John 6:64-65, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 1:17-18, John 10:3-6, Jon 10:16, John 10:26-29.

The Spirit gives faith and repentance

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 18:27, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:25-26.

The Spirit effectually calls

In addition to the general outward call, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect. The general call can be and often is rejected, the special call always results in the conversion of those of whom it was made.

Romans 1:6-7, Romans 8:30, Romans 9:23-24, 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-31, Galations 1:15-16, Eppesians 4:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 9:15, Jude 1, 1 Peter 1:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Pter, 5:10, 2 Peter 1:3, Revelations 17:14.

Salvation, Given by a Sovereign God

Isaiah 55:11, John 3:27, John 17:2, Romans 9:16, 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Philippians 2:12-13, James 1:18, 1 John 5:20.

Perseverance is from God

Isaiah 43:1-3, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 32:40, Matthew 18:12-14, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, John 17:11-12, John 17:15, Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 29-30, Romans 8:35-39, 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 2 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25, 1 John 5:4, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 John 5:20, Jude 1, Jude 24-25.

Everything has been determined from the foundations of the World. It's just that God does not need to make man a robot to reach this predetermined end.

Remember this...

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."Taken from the book "Why I am not an Arminian"

Everyone, a few questions...Why is it that man has to be set free from sin, if we are not bound to it? And if you agree we are bound to sin, in what capacity?

I would like to start a serious of posts that help us define some terms, and study this topic in a spectrum that is less broad, because so many things relate to it. desire to prove anything, but just as study of the Word, with the aid of prayer, and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I will post in Bible Study.

1. What was the condition of Adam before sin.
2. What is the result of Adam's sin for man.
3. What is the will?
4. What was the state of Adam's will prior to the fall?
5. What is the state of man's will before salvation, was it free, or bound?
6. What is the state of man's will after salvation, is it free, or bound? And, how does salvation affect the flesh of man?
7. What are the attributes of God?
8. What in God's attributes prevent man from coming to Him in a sinful state, or do they?
9. How do God's attributes relate to the need for redemption?
10. How are we saved?
11. How are we guilty, are we all guilty, or just some?

I just wanted to clairfy this. I think spiritual death, as Dave is using the term, is found in Ephesians 2. It's specifically referring to the state of Adam after the fall, and the state of man born into sin...dead in trespasses, alive in Christ...this is what the phrase refers to. Correct me if I am wrong Dave.

Ephesians
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the gift of faith, btw.

The Lord bless you.

I'll give you some links to some threads I started on these things when I find them.

This is right on topic...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=22374

Compatiblism defined, explained...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=16345

If you're interested...
HOW CAN GOD ORDAIN SIN AND YET NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT?
http://www.corkfpc.com/shedd.html

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES OF TRUTH
http://www.corkfpc.com/sovereigntyverses.html

THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MAN IN THE SCRIPTURES OF TRUTH
http://www.corkfpc.com/responsibility.html

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37 KJV)

We went over this already. Desire vs. Decree

Luke 19:41-42 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it Saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace!(desire), But now they are hidden from your eyes.(decree)

Amos 8:11 11 “ Behold, the days are coming,†says the Lord GOD,

“ That I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine of bread,
Nor a thirst for water,
But of hearing the words of the LORD.

undertow, you will not be able to understand these things because you are not saved, or at least that's what it says under your name. I''m going to pass by most of your posts for that reason and also because we are commanded by God to preach a simple Gospel message to the unsaved.

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It would be much more productive for you if you started here.
http://www.tpgh.org/MS.htm#Tracts

I hope you stick around, you just need to start from the beginning. It's not a matter of how smart one is, it's a matter uf submitting to God in faith in the truth and obedience, and then He will be more then happy to give you those spiritual eyes. Believe me, it's true. I'm speeking from experience confirmed by the Word of God.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

London Baptist Confession of Faith 5.2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;[Acts 2:23] so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;[Proverbs 16:33]yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. [Genesis 8:22, 50:20]

We voluntarily sin and God uses that for His own purpose and glory.

For those who believe God changes His mind, Boyce wrote: In reply to this objection, it may be stated that these are merely anthropopathic expressions, intended simply to impress upon men his great anger at sin, and his warm approval of the repentance of those who had sinned against him. The change of conduct, in men, not in God, had changed the relation between them and God. Sin had made them liable to his just displeasure. Repentance had brought them within the possibilities of his mercy. Had he not treated them differently then there would have been change in him. His very unchangeableness makes it necessary that he shall treat differently those who are innocent and those who are guilty, those who harden themselves against him and those who turn toward him for mercy, with repentant hearts. So far as the first of these passages is concerned, it is simply a protest against the great wickedness into which the race of man has fallen. The Scriptures show that God has had a purpose with reference to such sin, which, from the beginning, contemplated the fall of man and the different stages of wickedness by which in various ages that fall has been accompanied. These statements differ widely from those which declare love, pity, or anger, for there is no emotion in God correspondent with the outward declaration. Abstracts of Systematic Theology, VII.

From “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner

Prov. 16:9: A man's heart deviseth his way; But Jehovah directeth his steps.
Jer. 10:23: O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Ex. 12:36: And Jehovah gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked.
Ezra 6:22: For Jehovah had made them joyful, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God (rebuilding the temple).
Ezra 7:6: And the king (Artaxerxes) granted him (Ezra) all his request, according to the hand of Jehovah his God upon him.
Is. 44:28: (Jehovah) that saith of Cyrus (the heathen king of Persia), He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying of Jerusalem, She shall be built; and of the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Rev. 17:17: (Concerning the wicked it is said) God did put in their hearts to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.
I Sam. 2:25: They (Eli's sons) harkened not unto the voice of their father, because Jehovah was minded to slay them.
I Kings 12:11, 15: And now whereas my father (Solomon) did lade you with a heavy yoke, I (Rehoboam) will add to your yoke; my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. . . . So the king harkened not unto the people; for it was a thing brought about of Jehovah.
II Sam. 17:14: And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The Counsel of Hushai is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For Jehovah had ordained to defeat the counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that Jehovah might bring evil upon Absalom .

Vic, who’s Pastor Steve?

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God…†What is “that†Vic? Dr. James White, one of the editors on the NASB believes [as I do, even before I heard him say it] “that†sums up everything that came before…Grace and Faith.

Sin was allowed by God to enter into the world by His decree, so we must conclude that it has a purpose. Once sin entered in, it has enslaved us by determining our will and our nature [all have sinned in Adam as our federal head]. If you can't account for sin being allowed by decree with a purpose, then God has failed, He has been beaten by His creation.

Man is sinnful [this is the crux of the argument] and freely sins according to his nature. What God does in regeneration is set us free from the bondage of sin so we can freely believe the Gospel...this is the "I" in the TULIP. Once we are able to see the spiritual offer of the Kingdom [see John 3, you can't even see the Kingdom of God] we will eventually believe...freely.

We sin freely because we are sinners, we believe freely once set free from sin.

Augustine wrote: “For what is foreknowledge if not knowledge of future events? But can anything be future to God, who surpasses all time? For if God’s knowledge includes these very things themselves, they are not future to him but present; and for this reason we should no longer speak of God’s foreknowledge but simply of God’s knowledge.†Agreeing with Augustine, Gregory the Great wrote: “Whatever is past and future to us is immediately present in his sight.†For God, “there is no distinctions of time†[Tertullian, Against Marcion].

We as finite man see time as moving forward, but for God it’s always present. It’s a human idea to think that God is affected by time, it’s also a human idea to separate God’s omniscience from His all knowing foreknowledge and mix it with humanity’s nostalgic thinking. The Scriptures fully teach the omniscience of God as antecede to creation. [ http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...04.htm ]Without understanding this, without fully recognising God’s foreknowledge as being truly preceding creation we cannot come to terms with divine omniscience. I found in the works of Tertullian [Against Marcion] that attempts to harmonize human freewill with God’s omniscience, the tendency is to over emphasize human freewill above God’s omniscience. For God to foreknow anything, man’s will for example, He would have to know before the will is made because God is omniscient. For man to be created with a will, God would have to know what will to give man, this is also based on His omniscience. God’s wisdom doesn’t depend on human will, human will depends upon God’s infinite wisdom.

Augustine wrote, “If foreknowledge does not foreknow things that are certain to happen, it is nothing at all.â€Â

In essences, since God foreknows the will of man [fallen and dead in sin, or absolutely free to choose] Gods foreknowledge determines what that will it is going to be. The will comes into being because God has foreknown it. Our wills are therefore not limited but have as much power as God wants us to have, and have with certainty. Whatever the will does, it does as a matter of foreknowledge. Since time doesn’t exist for God, foreknowledge then becomes [strictly speaking], knowledge God knows before, during and after it happens…just as we view a time line.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

We see God using "wicked hands" by His "determinate cousel" for a purpose.

Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

We cast "the lot" but it is God who determines what happens, "the whole disposing thereof."

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Man meant it for evil, God meant it for good.

Man is still guilty of sin, yet, God used their sinful deeds to kill Christ on the cross and to sell Jospeh into slavery.

Man = still guilty God = still good

Literal:
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistewV kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistewV kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

Byzantine Majority
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistewV kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

King James Version
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

American Standard Version
2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Young's Literal Translation
2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

The gift is grace and faith.

I thought I would offer some more verses, in addition to my last post.
Predestination in the Bible

Eph. 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Rom. 8:28-39
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
and obtain the liberty decreed by God in advance
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Corinthians 2:6-16

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Act. 4:23-31
23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Eph. 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


2 Timothy 6-14
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto


Psalms. 139:1-16

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Rom. 9:16-18

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
All the seed of Abraham were not the children of the promise
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? The calling of the Gentiles foretold[/b]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Lord bless you all.

Romans 10 seems to say what it says when you read it with the other passages as it should be read. Those who call on the Lord do so in belief, and belief is by the Spirit...Jesus described this to Nicodemus...who had the knowledge of the Word, but did not have belief by the Spirit...That is why He asked Nic, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" John 3:4-11

Romans 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
All the seed of Abraham were not the children of the promise
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The calling of the Gentiles foretold25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
God's judgments are unsearchable
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[undertow]

The reader will notice how the unbeliever steers the thread away from the Bible, away from the Christian worldview and into the realm of secular philosophy

Actually, I have been asking you to support "secondary causes" as a genuinely Biblical concept. We are concerned here with what the Bible teaches.

Of course I want a clear definition of the concept, so we can see whether it is genuinely Biblical, but that isn't "steering the thread away from the Bible"!!

JM, are you able to provide evidence that "secondary causes" are a Biblical concept or not? Stop running away from the issue.

 

[Drew]

Very little of the following has been answered as of yet, this is a classic pattern we find with Drew, and now tow.

How on earth do you expect people to believe this (untrue) claim when you so blatantly refuse to define what you mean by a secondary cause. The readers are not stupid...

 

[Vic C.]

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