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Spare the Rod Spoil the child.

P

Pebbles

Guest
I'm aware that amoungst you there is a general consensus on the issue of using... forceful... measures in means of disciplining your children. and that you largely feel that spanking is a justified means of punishment and that this is defined as a tool to use by parents in the bible.

Ignoring Dr Phil because he is an unqualified hack. There is a video on the internet causing controversy and is dividing opinions sharply.

It involves a video of a IDS Mormon Lady Disciplining her adoptive son for lying.
In the process of this video she pours Hot Sauce into the childs mouth for a prolonged period of time. She then proceeds to give him an ice cold shower. If you feel that the video might be distressing I advise you don't watch it.

lds mormon primary president child abuser in alaska - YouTube

I am aware that you largely don't consider IDS Mormons to be christians as you've stated to me previously. Yet regardless of your personal considerations I still consider your moral positions to be highly allegorical never-the-less.

Obviously I have my own opinions and I know what side I am on, but I am curious to ask you your opinions.

Is this acceptable behaviour?
Is this over the line?
Is this child abuse?
 
I didn't watch the video, but I'd have to weigh in with a general question like this. Was the child willfully disobedient with his parent, or was this an auto-response? Did the hot-sauce cause more than a few moments discomfort? Did the parent explain why s/he is doing this? Did s/he hug them after and tell them what they did was wrong but that s/he still loves them?

This is nothing I would even consider, but given the proper details, I could understand.
 
causing permanent harm to a child is illegal.

while hot sauce doesnt do that, i wouldnt do that. there are other ways to discipline a child. ie spank if need be and that as a last resort.

what if that child had allergies? and her throat closed up? and she dies? the mother then is guilty of murder.
 
I agree that children need to be disciplined, even with a spanking when needed, but this is child abuse.
 
My response was a general one to the idea of using hot-sauce. Without watching the video, I was saying where I felt it would be permissible and where not.

Permissible

  • momentary discomfort (up to ~30 seconds)
  • calm, deliberate approach by parent
  • explanation for why this is happening
  • only in cases where the child purposely lied to challenge authority
  • parent explains that they still love the child after (teaches God's unconditional love)
Not Permissible

  • pain lasts more than 30 seconds or results in injury
  • parent emotional or upset, yelling at child
  • when the child's intent is not to purposely challenge authority
I watched the video, the they were out of hand.

I think the idea of using hot-sauce sounds extreme. I would never use this method. But I think it's just bazaar enough that people dismiss it, even though if the first set of criteria above are met, it's not much different from spanking.
 
Pebbles said:
I'm aware that amoungst you there is a general consensus on the issue of using... forceful... measures in means of disciplining your children. and that you largely feel that spanking is a justified means of punishment and that this is defined as a tool to use by parents in the bible.

Ignoring Dr Phil because he is an unqualified hack. There is a video on the internet causing controversy and is dividing opinions sharply.

It involves a video of a IDS Mormon Lady Disciplining her adoptive son for lying.
In the process of this video she pours Hot Sauce into the childs mouth for a prolonged period of time. She then proceeds to give him an ice cold shower. If you feel that the video might be distressing I advise you don't watch it.

lds mormon primary president child abuser in alaska - YouTube

I am aware that you largely don't consider IDS Mormons to be christians as you've stated to me previously. Yet regardless of your personal considerations I still consider your moral positions to be highly allegorical never-the-less.

Obviously I have my own opinions and I know what side I am on, but I am curious to ask you your opinions.

Is this acceptable behaviour?
Is this over the line?
Is this child abuse?
Click to expand...


1. I would not advise lumping Christians into one category as "You"
2. The verse you are referring two "Spare the rod Spoil the Child" in not a literal instruction. It could, and is, seen metaphorically to mean apply discipline which could be in many forms to include force of some kind.

Dr Phil is no more special than you or me. He's just a guy on TV making money dispensing a dimes worth of advice at a time for free. he get's paid by soap, cleaning fluid, and deodorant sponsors for the number of people he can get to watch his show and buy his books, and to do that he has to offer an alternative package to people that he says will improve what they've been doing all this time.

I did not watch the video. I took your advice on it. I would never punish my child like that. I think it's heartless, cold and unnecessary to teach a child what is right. Have I swatted my child before? Yes. I have. There are times when words don't work well and you need to get a child's attention, but a swat on the butt is usually all it takes. If you are a parent of heart it will hurt you when you do it and you may shed a tear with them. I have.

Christians are not taught to beat, anger, or lord over our children with force. We use our hearts and minds to love, lead and guide them. Some pervert this, but no more than the secular world does.

Beating and abusing children has nothing to do with the Christian faith. it's an individual problem that affects many people from many backgrounds.
 
I wasn't directly insinuating that you were any more violent as a pepole than anyone else, it's just a divisive issue some indivduals (even otherwise liberal minded ones) were for the treatment. I personally was not. I was woundering if this was true within your community aswell.
 
Pebbles said:
I wasn't directly insinuating that you were any more violent as a pepole than anyone else, it's just a divisive issue some indivduals (even otherwise liberal minded ones) were for the treatment. I personally was not. I was woundering if this was true within your community aswell.
Click to expand...

I went back and watched the video up to the point where she starts to pour hot sauce in her sons mouth. That was enough.

While I can understand the mothers frustration, that's NOT how I "punish" my child.

Kid's will lie and I liked that kids response; WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME?..."because I did not want to get into trouble"..:)....I thought to myself? Duh!

Why does anyone lie? I think there is more to his reason for lying and it's probably this; "Because your phyco and I did not want you pouring hot sauce down my throat right after you belittle me."

Here is my Christian take on this.
We are all natural sinners. Kid's display a pure nature, they don't yet have a true heart that has been steered to there own desire as much as they are just here as natural little human creatures. They are mostly soaking everything in and learning. Lying is not something they do to be evil as much as it is something they do to be smart and survive.

This kid has probably learned to lie from his own punishment for lying. I think his mother helps him lie by punishing him like this. Let's see...I did something wrong. I can tell mom about it and I'll get in trouble. I can lie about it and either A. not get caught and not get in trouble, or B get caught and get in trouble in which case I'm back to getting in trouble, so I'll take my chances and lie. ;)....smart kid don't you think?

I believe as parents we are here to mold our kids into choosing the right behavior for the right reasons. This woman is teaching her child to chose the wrong behavior for the right reasons.

Lying is morally wrong more so that consequenceualy (if that's a word) wrong. this woman is teaching her child, at least from the video, that there are consequences to lying, and while that's true, to the child the consequence is her.

My kids have lied, but usually about something involving an argument between the two and me trying to find out what happened. It's so petty that I will separate them, listen to each of them, then I bring them together for Dad's court where they can each tell there testimony publicity to the judge. MOM. I play both the prosecutor and the defense attorney. and as we play this out their stories will change a little and the truth comes out. We often play it up and end in a big laugh about it, but if someone needs to be punished that will happen. Mom and I will discuss it and come back and hand down the sentence.

Most often they don't really lie to me because they have no need to lie to me. I love them and they know that. They trust that I will listen and talk to them. I meet them with understanding that I am no better than them, just more experienced with a heart I have chosen to give to God at some point in my life because he handles it better than I do on my own. That's how I teach my kids.
 
This is a tough one for sure. After watching the video yesterday I had some really strong mixed feelings that I couldn't fully understand. On the one hand, what she did wasn't inherently dangerous to the child (assuming she already knew there was no risk of allergic reaction) and so the punishment doesn't seem all that severe but yet I couldn't get away from the gut feelings I was experiencing. The problem was that I couldn't put a finger on what those feelings were.

Today I think I know why I had those feelings in my gut. As I watch that video I ddin't get the impression that she was trying to teach her child the ills of lying so much as she was trying to teach the child that she was in command. I think she was acting more out of anger that the child lied to HER than because the child lied at all. I sensed a strong longing for over-bearing control on her part.

I understand how she might feel the need to establish dominance as a parent and in many ways I agree that it is important. But the way the punishment was delivered, it was doing more than just teach the child that lying was bad. I think it was also teaching the child that mom can be calculating and dangerous. Isn't it better for the child to learn out of respect than fear? Isn't that how God wants us to be? Follow His commandments out of love and respect rather than fear and duty.
 
Danus said:
I went back and watched the video up to the point where she starts to pour hot sauce in her sons mouth. That was enough.

While I can understand the mothers frustration, that's NOT how I "punish" my child.

Kid's will lie and I liked that kids response; WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME?..."because I did not want to get into trouble"..:)....I thought to myself? Duh!

Why does anyone lie? I think there is more to his reason for lying and it's probably this; "Because your phyco and I did not want you pouring hot sauce down my throat right after you belittle me."

Here is my Christian take on this.
We are all natural sinners. Kid's display a pure nature, they don't yet have a true heart that has been steered to there own desire as much as they are just here as natural little human creatures. They are mostly soaking everything in and learning. Lying is not something they do to be evil as much as it is something they do to be smart and survive.

This kid has probably learned to lie from his own punishment for lying. I think his mother helps him lie by punishing him like this. Let's see...I did something wrong. I can tell mom about it and I'll get in trouble. I can lie about it and either A. not get caught and not get in trouble, or B get caught and get in trouble in which case I'm back to getting in trouble, so I'll take my chances and lie. ;)....smart kid don't you think?

I believe as parents we are here to mold our kids into choosing the right behavior for the right reasons. This woman is teaching her child to chose the wrong behavior for the right reasons.

Lying is morally wrong more so that consequenceualy (if that's a word) wrong. this woman is teaching her child, at least from the video, that there are consequences to lying, and while that's true, to the child the consequence is her.

My kids have lied, but usually about something involving an argument between the two and me trying to find out what happened. It's so petty that I will separate them, listen to each of them, then I bring them together for Dad's court where they can each tell there testimony publicity to the judge. MOM. I play both the prosecutor and the defense attorney. and as we play this out their stories will change a little and the truth comes out. We often play it up and end in a big laugh about it, but if someone needs to be punished that will happen. Mom and I will discuss it and come back and hand down the sentence.

Most often they don't really lie to me because they have no need to lie to me. I love them and they know that. They trust that I will listen and talk to them. I meet them with understanding that I am no better than them, just more experienced with a heart I have chosen to give to God at some point in my life because he handles it better than I do on my own. That's how I teach my kids.
Click to expand...


hopefully they will see god that way if they already dont.
 
Pebbles said:
I'm aware that amoungst you there is a general consensus on the issue of using... forceful... measures in means of disciplining your children. and that you largely feel that spanking is a justified means of punishment and that this is defined as a tool to use by parents in the bible.

Ignoring Dr Phil because he is an unqualified hack. There is a video on the internet causing controversy and is dividing opinions sharply.

It involves a video of a IDS Mormon Lady Disciplining her adoptive son for lying.
In the process of this video she pours Hot Sauce into the childs mouth for a prolonged period of time. She then proceeds to give him an ice cold shower. If you feel that the video might be distressing I advise you don't watch it.

lds mormon primary president child abuser in alaska - YouTube

I am aware that you largely don't consider IDS Mormons to be christians as you've stated to me previously. Yet regardless of your personal considerations I still consider your moral positions to be highly allegorical never-the-less.

Obviously I have my own opinions and I know what side I am on, but I am curious to ask you your opinions.

Is this acceptable behaviour?
Is this over the line?
Is this child abuse?
Click to expand...
It as cultic and anything else mormons do.
 
WIP said:
As I watch that video I ddin't get the impression that she was trying to teach her child the ills of lying so much as she was trying to teach the child that she was in command. I think she was acting more out of anger that the child lied to HER than because the child lied at all. I sensed a strong longing for over-bearing control on her part.

I understand how she might feel the need to establish dominance as a parent and in many ways I agree that it is important. But the way the punishment was delivered, it was doing more than just teach the child that lying was bad. I think it was also teaching the child that mom can be calculating and dangerous. Isn't it better for the child to learn out of respect than fear? Isn't that how God wants us to be? Follow His commandments out of love and respect rather than fear and duty.
Click to expand...

yep, I think you'er right. the term fear God is to know and respect his awesomeness more so than to simply fall in line.

Interestingly, this is a huge misunderstanding atheist present as an argument to our faith. That we are simply afraid and follow God because we are afraid of what he'll do to us if we don't. :lol

Personally I look forward to God's correction for me in my own life. I've learned many a great lesson from the times he's tested me with his hand. We've all been punished a time or two from our heavily father, but he's never treated me as bad as that mother treated her son. He's always given me room to figure out my short comings. He's never threatened me. He's never said my way or the high way. He's always been there when I've needed the answer, and his arms have always been open. He reaches for us in love. I have to respect that.
 
I don't think "spare the rod spoil the child" is to be taken literally, as some have already pointed out. Kids can come out a-OK w/o spanking, although (speaking here as a non-parent) some of them might need it now and then to get the point across.

Very few Christians--and, I hate to use this term, but here it comes: "real Christians"--would approve of the sort of treatment this LDS woman gave her kid. I have no idea how Mormons raise their kids, either--this might be some misguided, frustrated mother, or it could be indicative of a problem within LDS families, I don't know--but this sort of thing is not OK.
 
This is downright child abuse and you don't really need to bring in Christianity or religion to back it up. :grumpy

Sometimes I wonder when a child is 'disciplined', is it for the kid's good or for the parent to vent her anger at the child. I once spotted my nephew (age 4) hit his older brother (age 7) rather abusively, to the extent that the older brother was visibly hurt in the head. Spontaneously, I stopped both of them and reported to their Dad (BIL).

What happened really blow my mind away. Instead of FIRST checking the older brother's injury, he dragged the two of them to one corner and vehemently reprimanded them together. And both of them were so paralyzed with fear that they sat in one corner, afraid to move an inch. I had seen so many similar 'disciplined' cases that I think the parents vented their anger because the kids have embarrassed them, especially when it is in the public place.
 
Kick their little tales I always say. If they need it give it to them, if you love them. Or would you rather the cops do it when they are of age. Or the people in prison, after they have robbed and killed somebody, because you were to stupid to intervene when they were coming up. I am going to get some feedback because of that (stupid) remark, but I really don't care. I have seen what children do because the parents let them run the show. Sorry I used the word (stupid) but it is the way I really feel, I am speaking from my heart on this issue, and it is best that I tell the truth and don't sugar coat my true feelings.
 
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