Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 3 - analogy

[Dorothy Mae]

In Acts 1 the apostles decided to choose someone to take the place of Judas, quoting psalm 109:8 ‘His office let another take.’
The chosen was "was enrolled with the eleven apostles" (vs 29)

Not a word about passing on spiritual gifts ONLY by the apostles laying in hands which is ONLY passed on by apostles. Just said they replaced one.

Apostles were elders.

Where? They chose elders, not apostles.

When he tells Timothy about the qualifications to be a bishop.

And? No word about passing on the gifts ONLY by apostles. That there WERE apostles doesn’t imply their duties.

Similarly in Titus 1:7-9-8 and in a previous verse (vs 5) he tells Titus to appoint elders in every town as I directed you.

Appoint ELDERS, not apostles.

It is clear from the context that elder = bishop.

But not apostle

 

[Mungo]

Not a word about passing on spiritual gifts ONLY by the apostles laying in hands which is ONLY passed on by apostles. Just said they replaced one.

My point was that the apostles passed on their authority

Where? They chose elders, not apostles.

But apostles were elders. (1 Pet5:1) but not all elders were apostles.

And? No word about passing on the gifts ONLY by apostles. That there WERE apostles doesn’t imply their duties.

I didn't say the gifts could ONLY be passed on by apostles.

Appoint ELDERS, not apostles.

Yes, and your point?

But not apostle

Didn't say they were.


By the end of the first century there was a hierarchy of bishop- priest - deacon.

The bishops were the successors of the apostles, thought they did not take that title. In Greek they were episkopos.
In Acts 1 the quote ‘His office let another take", the Greek translated in the RSV as office is episkopen - translated in the KJV as bishoprick

 

[DJT_47]

1. The laying on of hands was only one way that the external gifts of the Spirit was given.
The incident with Cornelius shows that God gave him and his household external gifts without the apostles laying on of hands:
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. (Acts 10:44-46).

2. The apostles passed on their authority to successors. That is probably another issue but consider this. Paul writes to Timothy instructing him on appointing bishops in 1Tim 3:1-2.

Then later he writes
Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. (1Tim 4:14)

Then Paul writes in the same letter:
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands.., (1Tim 5:22)

So Timothy has the authority to appoint bishops and lay on hands.

3. Paul writes to the Romans
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching (Rom 12:5-7)
Paul is assuming that the Roman Christians have external gifts of the Spirit.

Paul is also clear that various (external) are given variously to many individuals ( 1Cor 12:4-11, Eph 4:11).
He says in 1Cor 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Why should those gifts for the common good be only needed for the apostolic era?

Jesus told the apostles "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20)

Clearly that could not be done (and was not done) by the apostles alone. It is an ongoing work. So the gifts for the common good must be ongoing also

You are not understanding Acts 10 which is similar to Acts 2. These are the only 2 instances in the bible wherein the Holy Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands. Why? As heavenly validation of what was occurring to those present. What was the reason? In both cases, the church was started, 1st amongst the Jews in Jerusalem, and then amongst the Gentiles in Caesarea. All other instances of the Spirit being manifested miraculously required the laying on of the apostle's hands. RefActs 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8 with Stephen doing miraculous things after the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:13-19, Acts 19:6, 2 Tim 1:6.

And you're wrong about 1 Tim 4:14. The presbytery stated therein was Paul as confirmed by the 2 Tim 1:6 passage which states it was Paul's hands.

And establishing elders, who oversee and guide the local congregations, has nothing to do with apostle's: they are NOT apostles nor does tge passage infer passing on gifts.

Gifts were necessary in the early church to grow it and edify it. Not so today. We need no miraculous gifts, we have the complete word of God, they had nothing.

Who today is performing miracles, or healing the sick, lame, blind, etc? No one. Who is prophesying and providing more information than rge complete word of God? No one. If those people existed, there wouldn't be a need for hospitals which are constantly filled with such. You simply hear about 'tongues', that's it; considered an inferior gift by the scriptures as well.

Gifts today don't exist. It's nonsense.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point was that the apostles passed on their authority

But they didn’t and those verses don’t establish that. No apostle appointed apostles. Jesus appoints apostles and Jesus gives authority not man and not an organization.

But apostles were elders. (1 Pet5:1) but not all elders were apostles.

1So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:

How do you see that verse as establishing your point? Just tells elders what to do.

I didn't say the gifts could ONLY be passed on by apostles.

They aren’t even passed on at all, but given to individuals as gifts.

Yes, and your point?



Didn't say they were.


By the end of the first century there was a hierarchy of bishop- priest - deacon.

The bishops were the successors of the apostles, thought they did not take that title. In Greek they were episkopos.
In Acts 1 the quote ‘His office let another take", the Greek translated in the RSV as office is episkopen - translated in the KJV as bishoprick

There was an institution but bishops weren’t successors as they existed the same time as apostles.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are not understanding Acts 10 which is similar to Acts 2. These are the only 2 instances in the bible wherein the Holy Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands. Why? As heavenly validation of what was occurring to those present. What was the reason? In both cases, the church was started, 1st amongst the Jews in Jerusalem, and then amongst the Gentiles in Caesarea. All other instances of the Spirit being manifested miraculously required the laying on of the apostle's hands. RefActs 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8 with Stephen doing miraculous things after the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:13-19, Acts 19:6, 2 Tim 1:6.

And you're wrong about 1 Tim 4:14. The presbytery stated therein was Paul as confirmed by the 2 Tim 1:6 passage which states it was Paul's hands.

And establishing elders, who oversee and guide the local congregations, has nothing to do with apostle's: they are NOT apostles nor does tge passage infer passing on gifts.

Gifts were necessary in the early church to grow it and edify it. Not so today. We need no miraculous gifts, we have the complete word of God, they had nothing.

Who today is performing miracles, or healing the sick, lame, blind, etc? No one. Who is prophesying and providing more information than rge complete word of God? No one. If those people existed, there wouldn't be a need for hospitals which are constantly filled with such. You simply hear about 'tongues', that's it; considered an inferior gift by the scriptures as well.

Gifts today don't exist. It's nonsense.

Sounds God wanted an institute not that He wanted to heal the sick because they were suffering. Doesn’t resemble the Jesus we meet in the scriptures. It says he had compassion on them, not that he wanted to build an organization.

He is still healing the sick. He is still good and knows how to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. Depends upon the heart of those seeking. It’s not that that now that he has an institute, He no longer gives gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mungo]

But they didn’t and those verses don’t establish that. No apostle appointed apostles. Jesus appoints apostles and Jesus gives authority not man and not an organization.

My point is that the apostles passed on the authority of their office, which was called episkopos (which we call bishop)
It is episcopos that Titus and Timothy appointed.
This is very clearly shown by Clement's letter to the Corinthians in about 96 AD.
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

 

[Mungo]

You are not understanding Acts 10 which is similar to Acts 2. These are the only 2 instances in the bible wherein the Holy Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands. Why? As heavenly validation of what was occurring to those present. What was the reason? In both cases, the church was started, 1st amongst the Jews in Jerusalem, and then amongst the Gentiles in Caesarea. All other instances of the Spirit being manifested miraculously required the laying on of the apostle's hands. RefActs 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8 with Stephen doing miraculous things after the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:13-19, Acts 19:6, 2 Tim 1:6.

And you're wrong about 1 Tim 4:14. The presbytery stated therein was Paul as confirmed by the 2 Tim 1:6 passage which states it was Paul's hands.

And establishing elders, who oversee and guide the local congregations, has nothing to do with apostle's: they are NOT apostles nor does tge passage infer passing on gifts.

Gifts were necessary in the early church to grow it and edify it. Not so today. We need no miraculous gifts, we have the complete word of God, they had nothing.

Who today is performing miracles, or healing the sick, lame, blind, etc? No one. Who is prophesying and providing more information than rge complete word of God? No one. If those people existed, there wouldn't be a need for hospitals which are constantly filled with such. You simply hear about 'tongues', that's it; considered an inferior gift by the scriptures as well.

Gifts today don't exist. It's nonsense.

All though the history of the Church there have been miracles. They are happening today.
They are just as much needed today to grow the Church and edify it.

 

[DJT_47]

All though the history of the Church there have been miracles. They are happening today.
They are just as much needed today to grow the Church and edify it.

You've ignored scripture in favor of your own beliefs and are deceived by what you see that may not be of God. Scripture doesn't mislead or misguide but a man's own ideas do. Goodbye

 

[Mungo]

You've ignored scripture in favor of your own beliefs and are deceived by what you see that may not be of God. Scripture doesn't mislead or misguide but a man's own ideas do. Goodbye

So you ignore the evidence of history in favour of your personal interpretation of scripture.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you ignore the evidence of history in favour of your personal interpretation of scripture.

Those who haven’t sent any spiritual gifts search for a reason that is comforting.

 

[DJT_47]

So you ignore the evidence of history in favour of your personal interpretation of scripture.

What evidence? As I've asked before, who today is truly performing miracles and healing people, the sick, lame, blind, etc., and why are hospitals filled with such? Who is providing us with prophesy beyond the complete word of God? Who? You? All we hear about is tongues that aren't even true to scripture, but just incoherent babbling that know one understands! Is this the evidence you're referring to? If so, it's a laughable joke.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What evidence? As I've asked before, who today is truly performing miracles and healing people, the sick, lame, blind, etc., and why are hospitals filled with such? Who is providing us with prophesy beyond the complete word of God? Who? You? All we hear about is tongues that aren't even true to scripture, but just incoherent babbling that know one understands! Is this the evidence you're referring to? If so, it's a laughable joke.

Your questions indicate that you do not think anything described in the Bible is true unless you have seen it in your own limited circle. If you do not see it or hear it or touch it, it is not so. This limits your ability to know what it true. Second, this measure of where God is generously giving gifts of the Holy Spirit today or not, that people so gifted ought to empty hospitals, betrays an expectation that Jesus himself did not fulfill. God does not go around looking for people to heal or so on. The sick needed to come to Jesus. He did not enter a town seeking out the sick.

But I suspect you do not want any new facts or information, you have already made up your mind that God no longer gives gifts of the Holy Spirit. Of course, without any faith that God generously gives gifts, you will not be able to see when God is doing so.

Now it is true that there are a LOT of fakeries which is not really a problem of deception in the church as much as there is a terrible lack of knowing the Bible or having any discernment. The biggest evidence of this was the night the big leaders of the supposed spiritual movement such as Wimber, Peter Wagner, Joyner and so on, the supposedly apostles/prophets/etc annointing Todd Bently who was actively engaging in adultery and not a single one of them knew this. God was showing those with eyes to see that these men have zero spiritual discernment. They cannot tell the Holy Spirit from the Unholy spirit. So, one can see that they are not gifted by the Holy Spirit nor led by him. Same with others. Discernment from God cannot be faked and so they could not demonstrate it but the opposite. Deceived every last one of them. That is my view.