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St. Mary . . .

WIP said:
No, but what I'm saying is both of us might be arguing out of silence.

How about this. Do you believe Simon (Peter) and Andrew were blood brothers?
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I'm going to expand on my question above.

From Scripture I'm sure most, if not all, understand that Peter and Andrew were brothers from the same father. Scripture says as much about Peter and Andrew's relationship to their father as it does about James, Joses, Jude, and Simon's relationship to Jesus. So then, how is it that some will deny that Jesus had brothers and sisters from the same father while they will agree that Peter had a brother by the same father. This also applies to John and James.

How do the Scriptures reveal the difference between Jesus and His brothers and sisters vs Peter and John and their brothers?
 
One thing I think we need to remember to keep in perspective during this discussion is the focus of whom everything falls. Scripture is God's biography written by authors inspired and given to us by God. The focus and subject of the Scriptures is not Mary, nor Peter, nor Paul, nor John the Baptist. The focus and subject of the Scriptures is Jesus and Jesus alone. He is the one that the Scriptures point to both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. We should try to keep this in mind.
 
MarkT said:
People who knew Jesus when he was growing up knew his mother and his father and his brothers and his sisters. Mt. 13:55 Why would they name Mary's sister's sons his brothers? You say, brother(s) had a much wider meaning back then. Was James the brother of John? So brother means brother most of the time except in this case the people who knew Jesus didn't mean brothers.

Luke 2:7
And she gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

"Her first born" suggests she had other children.

The Bible says Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. Knew her not.
Matthew 1:25
but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

Matthew 15:6
So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.
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Liguori points to Proverbs: "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning." [Proverbs 8:22] Thus Christ is first Born of every creature [Cf. Colossians 1:15] given birth by the Blessed Mary who was the firstborn of HIs grace.” [St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Glories of Mary] . You must admit, Mary was the firstborn of the Church.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" [Colossians 1:15]

Jews referred to the first male child of any family regardless of how many male children in the household. He had a special function in the spiritual life of the Jew.

The Sacred Jewish tradition of Passover (seen in John 6:4 as “pasch”) celebrates the first born of every family who ceremoniously eats the flesh of the sacrificial lamb; a commemoration when death passed over the firstborn of Israel. Everybody my age has seen Charlton Heston’s, ‘The Ten Commandments’ since its release in 1956. What was it that Got Rameses (Yul Brynner)so mad so that he went chasing after Moses in a rage? Rameses’ son was killed by the very curse Rameses himself uttered. Moses was given the insight to see coming plague of the ‘BLOOD’. Christ establishes another commemoration dealing with eternal life and the Blood of Christ later in His ministry during the same time of the year.

The blood of a perfect sacrificial lamb was ordered to be placed over the door header so the curse would ‘PASS OVER’. Since then, part of the commemoration of Passover was to sacrifice the lamb in a special feasts and customs. ‘Pesachim’ was the custom where Just prior to taking the meat home the women and children of the household which searched the house to remove all traces of leaven bread. The common household bread (leavened) which represented a blotted, vainglorious and arrogant sinful nature. It was hung over a lamp to burn out the leaven (corruption). You might recall Paul’s words “Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened.” (1Cor 5:7) Judaism was steeped with metaphoric visions of leavened and unleavened bread that was culturally ingrained in the Jewish psyche, as it was Christ’s and the Twelve.

One of the main ecclesiastic Jewish feasts that take place over the many days of festival was on the day of the Pasch (fifteenth of the Jewish month). On day 14 day, the male members of the family met in the Temple to sacrifice a lamb, part of burnt offering was carried home. The blood was offered to God in the Holy of Holies. The role of the first born was to ate the flesh of the Lamb while recounting stories of the original Passover. The recital was to insure that the story of the first Passover would never be forgotten. This is a real sacrifice, as opposed to a spiritual sacrifice, signified by the presence of ‘blood’. (Which is a topic for another discussion which I’m sure will come). We know this because in Jewish sacrificial custom of the sacrifice of blood along with the meat. The point being that these customs would have been understood by the Jew along with all the nuances; especially to the Pharisees. Now, re-read John 5 and 6 keeping these images in mind make a symbol Christ's sacrifice and we lose all connection with the promised salvation. "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you." [John 6:54]

Consequently, Mary and Joseph’s reference to their "firstborn" would be common practice in the age of Jewish antiquity. Don’t ever forget, Jesus was the fulfillment of Jewish law, not a tittle will pass.[Cf. Matthew 5:18].

To avoid chaotically walking in the disorder of protest Catholics keep the traditions received from the Apostles, [Cf 2 Thessalonians 3:6].

JosephT
 
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Luke 1:46-55 In her own words...
46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”
New International Version (NIV)
~~~~~~~~~~~
Luke 1:48b stands out to me in this scripture passage: " From now on all generations will call me blessed. "

My generation calls her "blessed" and so I call her blessed. It is biblical truth. She also gives a prophecy about Jesus in the last verses in this passage. e.g. Luke 1:49-55 (shown above).

Also, note that throughout this scripture passage she gives glory to God as a prophetess of God. It is what she says about Jesus here that stands out and that does, in my view, make her blessed as she said she would be. She was simply a humble young girl who was definitely chosen to be the mother of our Lord and Savior, Jesus. She is blessed~ we are blessed~
 
WIP said:
One thing I think we need to remember to keep in perspective during this discussion is the focus of whom everything falls. Scripture is God's biography written by authors inspired and given to us by God. The focus and subject of the Scriptures is not Mary, nor Peter, nor Paul, nor John the Baptist. The focus and subject of the Scriptures is Jesus and Jesus alone. He is the one that the Scriptures point to both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. We should try to keep this in mind.
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If the purpose of Scripture were simply to focus on Christ, nobody else would have been mentioned except Mary, Joseph, and Jesus Christ. Without the incarnation there is no Jesus Christ, nor are we able to see the Trinity in Scripture. Without Mary, Joseph and Jesus Christ then the sacrifice becomes meaningless to us. In order to magnify the Trinity we must see her son through her.

Sacred Scripture is the revelation of God's acts in the lives of men as witnessed by the Apostles. He acted in Mary, Joseph, St. Peter, St. Paul, and all the other apostles and over the ages through the Church. In whatever way God chose to act, you must admit that He did so through men and women and He promised to act in the world. [Cf. John 14:16]

JosephT
 
sunflower said:
Luke 1:46-55 In her own words...
46 And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”
New International Version (NIV)
~~~~~~~~~~~
Luke 1:48b stands out to me in this scripture passage: " From now on all generations will call me blessed. "

My generation calls her "blessed" and so I call her blessed. It is biblical truth. She also gives a prophecy about Jesus in the last verses in this passage. e.g. Luke 1:49-55 (shown above).

Also, note that throughout this scripture passage she gives glory to God as a prophetess of God. It is what she says about Jesus here that stands out and that does, in my view, make her blessed as she said she would be. She was simply a humble young girl who was definitely chosen to be the mother of our Lord and Savior, Jesus. She is blessed~ we are blessed~
Click to expand...
Beautifully spoken. Your also a blessing!
 
Liguori points to Proverbs: "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning." [Proverbs 8:22] Thus Christ is first Born of every creature [Cf. Colossians 1:15] given birth by the Blessed Mary who was the firstborn of HIs grace.” [St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Glories of Mary] . You must admit, Mary was the firstborn of the Church.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" [Colossians 1:15]
Click to expand...

Luke 2:7 says Mary gave birth to her first born son. So Jesus was the first born of Mary suggesting Mary had other children.

I don't know what you mean by Mary was the first born of the church.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is the beginning, the first born among the brethren, meaning the church. In everything he is pre-eminent.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. RSV

Colossians 1:18
He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. RSV
 
MarkT said:
Luke 2:7 says Mary gave birth to her first born son. So Jesus was the first born of Mary suggesting Mary had other children.
Click to expand...

The only child is the firstborn child, in anybody's reasoning. But, there was reason for Jews to go beyond that. see my post http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/st-mary.78460/page-6#post-1497118

I don't know what you mean by Mary was the first born of the church.
Click to expand...

The firstborn of the Jews were spared their life. Mary was the firstborn of the Church, here eternal life was the first to be spared.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is the beginning, the first born among the brethren, meaning the church. In everything he is pre-eminent.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. RSV

Colossians 1:18
He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. RSV
Click to expand...

So, you wish to say that Mary didn't believe Jesus Christ was our savior in spite of being told so by the Angel? Mary is the first born of the Church, the first believer, the first Catholic, the first in the Kingdom of God and the first to intimately know Christ.

JosephT
 
MarkT said:
Thus Christ is first Born of every creature [Cf. Colossians 1:15] given birth by the Blessed Mary who was the firstborn of HIs grace.”

I would say Jesus Christ was the first born of the grace of God.
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Jesus Christ is Living Grace. How or why then does He give Himself grace being the Personification of grace itself?

JosephT
 
JosephT said:
The only child is the firstborn child, in anybody's reasoning. But, there was reason for Jews to go beyond that. see my post http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/st-mary.78460/page-6#post-1497118



The firstborn of the Jews were spared their life. Mary was the firstborn of the Church, here eternal life was the first to be spared.



So, you wish to say that Mary didn't believe Jesus Christ was our savior in spite of being told so by the Angel? Mary is the first born of the Church, the first believer, the first Catholic, the first in the Kingdom of God and the first to intimately know Christ.

JosephT
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According to the Bible, Zechariah was a believer. Elizabeth was a believer, Joseph was a believer. Mary was a believer. How about the prophets who prophesied his coming? How about David? How about Abraham? Do you suppose Mary exalted herself? Her own words, "Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Luke 1:38

What makes you think Mary was the first to hear the words of God?
 
MarkT said:
According to the Bible, Zechariah was a believer. Elizabeth was a believer, Joseph was a believer. Mary was a believer. How about the prophets who prophesied his coming? How about David? How about Abraham? Do you suppose Mary exalted herself? Her own words, "Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Luke 1:38

What makes you think Mary was the first to hear the words of God?
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She was His mother. The Angel told her that the child she bore was God. Hence, she was the first, even before Christ left the womb.

JosephT
 
Just want to insert this thought and experience: I grew up in and even spent many years as an adult in a church where many people preferred to pray to and worship Mary. Actually it was not the Theology of that church as such; but it was the practice of many..and approved as well sometimes even encouraged. She is to be honored and she is blessed among women (because she is the mother of Jesus); but she is not to be worshiped. And even though those who worshiped her also worshiped God..it is God alone who we are to worship. Worship and honor are not the same thing. We respectfully honor heroes, leaders, prophets, etc. And she is a biblical character of great honor worthy of respect especially as we study the history of Christianity and the scriptures.

Personally I think many people and especially those in some cultures today, although not professing outwardly worship of Mary, still have vestiges of that in their thinking so elevate her to the level of God. And they may not even be aware of that. Mainly she is not to be worshiped as God. A careful reading of the scriptures or re-reading will clear this up.
 
sunflower said:
Just want to insert this thought and experience: I grew up in and even spent many years as an adult in a church where many people preferred to pray to and worship Mary. Actually it was not the Theology of that church as such; but it was the practice of many..and approved as well sometimes even encouraged. She is to be honored and she is blessed among women (because she is the mother of Jesus); but she is not to be worshiped. And even though those who worshiped her also worshiped God..it is God alone who we are to worship. Worship and honor are not the same thing. We respectfully honor heroes, leaders, prophets, etc. And she is a biblical character of great honor worthy of respect especially as we study the history of Christianity and the scriptures.

Personally I think many people and especially those in some cultures today, although not professing outwardly worship of Mary, still have vestiges of that in their thinking so elevate her to the level of God. And they may not even be aware of that. Mainly she is not to be worshiped as God. A careful reading of the scriptures or re-reading will clear this up.
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Good morning sunshine :)
I couldn't agree more with you. It's almost sad when we think of Mary, that we have to navigate such ideas of worshiping her. It's almost like we're not allowed to give her the honor she's due in fear of resembling another denomination we disagree with.
 
In Gods kingdom whom is worthy to be honored?

Revelation 6:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
 
StoveBolts said:
JosephT , is this true?
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Yes indeed.

Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."[Cf. St. Augustine, De virg] "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church." [CCC 963]​

The simplicity of it is this, Jesus Christ is the founder and head of the Church. As members of the Church we become adopted sons and daughters of God, "But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name." [John 1:12], brothers (albeit adopted) of Jesus Christ. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, thus she becomes our adopted Spiritual Mother. If you abide in Jesus Christ, then Mary is your mother in spirit as well. St. Augustine addresses Mary this way.

This we have undertaken in our present discourse: may Christ help us, the Son of a virgin, and the Spouse of virgins, born after the flesh of a virgin womb, and wedded after the Spirit in virgin marriage. Whereas, therefore, the whole Church itself is a virgin espoused unto one Husband Christ, as the Apostle says, of how great honor are its members worthy, who guard this even in the flesh itself, which the whole Church guards in the faith? Which imitates the mother of her husband, and her Lord. For the Church also is both a mother and a virgin. For whose virgin purity consult we for, if she is not a virgin? Or whose children address we, if she is not a mother? Mary bare the Head of This Body after the flesh, the Church bears the members of that Body after the Spirit. In both virginity hinders not fruitfulness: in both fruitfulness takes not away virginity. Wherefore, whereas the whole Church is holy both in body and spirit, and yet the whole is not virgin in body but in spirit; how much more holy is it in these members, wherein it is virgin both in body and spirit? [St. Augustine, On Holy Virginity, 2]​

Continuing St. Augustine says:

And on this account, that one female, not only in the Spirit, but also in the flesh, is both a mother and a virgin. And a mother indeed in the Spirit, not of our Head, Which is the Saviour Himself, of Whom rather she was born after the Spirit: forasmuch as all, who have believed in Him, among whom is herself also, are rightly called “children of the Bridegroom:” but clearly the mother of His members, which are we: in that she wrought together by charity, that faithful ones should be born in the Church, who are members of That Head: but in the flesh, the mother of the Head Himself. For it behooved that our Head, on account of a notable miracle, should be born after the flesh of a virgin, that He might thereby signify that His members would be born after the Spirit, of the Church a virgin: therefore Mary alone both in Spirit and in flesh is a mother and a virgin: both the mother of Christ, and a virgin of Christ; but the Church, in the Saints who shall possess the kingdom of God, in the Spirit indeed is altogether the mother of Christ, altogether a virgin of Christ: but in the flesh not altogether, but in certain a virgin of Christ, in certain a mother, but not of Christ. Forsooth both faithful women who are married, and virgins dedicated to God, by holy manners, and charity out of a pure heart, and good conscience, and faith. [St. Augustine, On Holy Virginity, 6]​

JosephT
 
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